Author Topic: The Secret behind Potency of Meth  (Read 34431 times)

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ScuzZ

  • Guest
Purity of Meth
« Reply #160 on: August 20, 2003, 11:18:00 AM »
In swims honest and humble opinion, the purity of meth is not in the procedure that it takes to gain the meth, rather it is the experience in the chemist on his/her knowledge on when a reaction has finished or is about to finish is whether the meth is pure or close to.

geezmeister

  • Guest
insanely long yields and potentcy
« Reply #161 on: August 20, 2003, 03:19:00 PM »
Phlegm: perhaps if you indulged a few times in what you consider insanely long refluxes you would discover as quickly as I did the purpose they actually serve. You sound like I used to sound, until I learned better from experience.

ScuzZ-- the purity is in the precursors and letting the reaction complete. If you reflux, you pretty much take the skill and experience issue out of knowing when its complete. Let the wrong types of trash in the flask and all  the skill and experience in the world won't give you good dope. The most highly developed skill at determining the reaction has completed can be replaced by a little bit longer reflux. You can do this reaction in a way that the potency of the product is dependent on the skill of the cook in knowing when its complete. Or you can reflux. Six in one....


Phlegm

  • Guest
Geezmeister, I DO have much experience doing...
« Reply #162 on: August 23, 2003, 07:14:00 PM »
Geezmeister,

I DO have much experience doing long wet incubations (I'm not really sure the term "reflux" is correct for this method). Three years ago when the two hour pyrotechnics trick as per Worlok and Methhead was the only thing anybody at the hive discussed, I was doing 16 to 48 hour runs at 180F. It was the only way I could get it to work - and it worked damned well. I also performed a number of experiments running flasks with identical ingredients, side by side, at the same temp (180F), varying only the durations of their runs. I never discussed these on the board because I felt stupid about the whole thing. I then went to experiments with higher temps and shorter run times. In attempting to discuss them at the Hive, I was just really turned off by the arrogance a certain moderator who presents his opinions as fact, without providing any substantive support of his position. So, I gave up. Now, maybe I will try to present my point again. I am a very patient individual and I don't have problems waiting on long reductions per se. But from my viewpoint  there are two aspects of the long "reflux" that could (and will for someone, eventually) result in the worst kind of troubles a clandestine lab chemist can have. The chemist should constantly be aware that we are in guerilla warfare with the authorities. And that's my first big concern. The whole time a reflux is going the chemist's ass is hanging out raw and naked. If the cops come to your house for say DV, or your stereo's too loud, or someone requests a check on your wellfare, or for any fucking reason at all, and they happen to see or smell something ... well, then you're cooked. Maybe sounds far fetched? It does happen. Listen to a police scanner for a while (which anyone should be doing every second they're in the lab anyway) and you will see. It's simply a matter of probability, and the longer you leave yourself vulnerable the greater the risk. Now if you're the type that just leaves all your lab shit lying around instead of hiding/removing it post reaction, then this point has little bearing on you.

The other major concern with these long runs is that when we're talking about 24 hour, 48 hour, and 72 hour run times it is obvious that these runs almost always are going to have large blocks of time in which they are left unattended.
I have done that many times, and it scares the hell out of me each time. There is so much to go wrong. Crashing into your set up as you nod off trying to stay awake is not a good thing. And I have done it. But at least I was there to take care of the problem. What happens when you're not there and the flask breaks/explodes/implodes and your red phos or hypo or phosporus acid starts on fire? If the house burns to the ground with you or your family in it, then nothing matters. But if you're lucky and no one gets hurt, and even if the house is mostly spared, you're still going to have to contend with the fire department. Which means you're going to be seeing the police, because there is little doubt that the FD will be able to determine the cause of the blaze. What if the hose comes off and you've got a really misty one cookin'. Will the neighbors smell it and maybe call the Hazmat unit? Or worse, what if you're sleeping in the lab and out of the hose spills a bunch of phosphine. The potentials list goes on and on. What solves all this and cuts way back exposure time is a wet hotter rection. A Rx done at 185F that requires 3 days is finished after about 4.5 hours at 255F. This is not conjecture. I have performed it and it works. I still go for 3 hours at minimum regardless of the precursor quantites, just to make sure. As for quality, I believe it is indistinguishable from that of long lower temp wet run. IF a slight degrade were detectable I still think the tradeoff would easily be worth the safety edge one realizes in doing a short hotter wet run. A strategy I have tried that works as well is to due the early part of a run for say from 4 to 8 hours at 190F then go to 255 for 2 or 3 hours. This would be equivalent to at least a 36 hour run done entirely at low temperatures. Considering that the reaction rate is much greater during the earlier hours of any run, you may have reacted two-thirds of the precursor during those 4 to 8 hours at your "preferred" lower temp anyway before you jack up the temperature to 255F to finish up. Once the MA is formed, going to 255F will not affect it. I've also tried slowly ramping the temperaure. Starting at 175F and reaching 260F at the very end. Works fine too.

As for aziridines, this is not a problem. One of the papers available at Rhodium's site shows a chromatograph of a run a group did at 265F. It nicely shows over time the PE peak decreasing, a concommittant increase in the MA peak and a steady decline of the aziridine peak until it no longer existed after 5 hours, having been converted to MA.

Osmium

  • Guest
I never said to heat it to 180°F (100°C), I...
« Reply #163 on: August 24, 2003, 11:33:00 AM »
I never said to heat it to 180°F (100°C), I said reflux it. The reflux temp is about 130°C (that should be close to 260F, correct me if I'm wrong).

> One of the papers available at Rhodium's site shows a
> chromatograph of a run a group did at 265F. It nicely
> shows over time the PE peak decreasing, a concommittant
> increase in the MA peak and a steady decline of the
> aziridine peak until it no longer existed after 5 hours,
> having been converted to MA.

That's comparing apples to oranges, they used an excess of reagent grade aq. HI if I remember correctly. The ratios of pseudo and I2 the bees are using will produce a much smaller excess of HI.


geezmeister

  • Guest
I've made the same arguments
« Reply #164 on: August 25, 2003, 07:01:00 PM »
I've made the same arguments, Phlegm. I changed my mind. I decided it made more sense to use lower temperatures (which carry with them lower risks of equipment failure, seal failure, by-product creation, and fire) and run the reflux for a longer time to insure completion. The yield after recrystallizing the product is what convinced me to go this way. The insignificant loss of weight in the recrystallization process convinced me the product was purer product than any other method I had used.

 I agree that if you start at a lower temperature and increase it after the first couple of hours, you avoid creating most of the by-products associated with cooking hot. Some of the adverse effects associated with meth are related to unreduced intermediates rather than by-products. You can force the reaction to completion faster with heat, knowing with skill and experience when the reaction is for all practical purposes complete, or you can not worry about it and let it reflux long enough to take care of itself at lower temperatures without needing those skills or that experience. I do not routinely heat the reaction above 100C. I do not heat it above 115C when I do exceed 100C. I opted for longer times at lower temperatures, and am happy with my choice. I prefer the product made at lower temperatures, which always seems to have a smoother effect and less of a hard edge to it that meth made at higher temperatures.


The whole time a reflux is going the chemist's ass is hanging out raw and naked. If the cops come to your house for say DV, or your stereo's too loud, or someone requests a check on your wellfare, or for any fucking reason at all, and they happen to see or smell something ... well, then you're cooked. Maybe sounds far fetched? It does happen




Yes, it does. That is why I do not cook at home, period. I have before. But the very reason you cite for doing a shorter cook is also a reason for doing a clandestine reflux in the closet in the bedroom rather than cooking in the kitchen on Saturday afternoon. I can do a long wet reflux without an odor problem. You would never know it was there and refluxing, even if you were a cook and suspected me of cooking. I would prefer to keep the stereo down, let folks know I am fine, and keep my speeding tickets paid so I do not have arrest warrants issued for non-appearance than I would cook hotter for a shorter time. Hotter invariably increases pressure, increases the chance of odor escaping, increases the odds of something failing or breaking. THOSE factors directly increase the chance of detection.

The best way of avoiding detection is never giving the police a reason to come to your door. The next best on is to never have anything in plain view or any peculiar odors detectable at the front door. The argument you pose kept me from doing a long reflux for the longest time. After I changed to the oil bath and at the same time freed myself from working in a kitchen, I realized the arguments were not as persuasive as they first appeared. A lower temperature long wet reflux with a good balloon will provide sufficient odor control to avoid detection-- at least if you don't cook in the entry hall closet by the front door. I was actually surprised by how simple it was to run one undetected and untended if you set it properly to begin with. I have learned the problems and weaknesses with my particular hardware and method, and have learned what to do and what not to do to keep from having failed seals, gas losses, or such. I have learned that the long wet reflux at lower temp can be set up to complete without tending, if need be. Preparation is the key, as always.

I have had a water circulation to the condenser fail during the reflux one time. It might have been a problem had it been untended much longer, as the balloon would probably have failed. Had I been cooking at higher temperatures, it would have failed that time. The lower temperatures prevented the pump failure from being a problem. I studied the arguments you have against the long reflux and came to the opposite conclusion. I do not cook at home, and that no doubt factors into my conclusion. Even if I did, I would do a long reflux at lower temperatures now. 

The parameters of this reaction are sufficiently flexible to allow a wide range of option for successful cooking. The point in the envelope you find most appealing is a successful point, and I have done many reactions successfully in that range. I prefer the results from a different point in the envelope. I agree with most of what you discussed in your post, and agree for the most part with your observations about temperature and completion of the reaction. I like to set it up to run during the week and not be worried with making it finish. I made arrangements suitable for that type of operation. Your arrangements have as much to do with your choices and preferences as mine have to do with mine. We simply reached different conclusions.




callen

  • Guest
I'm going to say this only one time..SO LISTEN UP
« Reply #165 on: March 21, 2004, 12:56:00 AM »
Pure d-Meth is a wonderful MIND thing...while l-Meth is a wonderful BODY thing...i.e.,d-l-Meth is an altogether better experience than just d- alone.And watch out for any Katz in the neighborhood.P2P-Methylamine-Al. foil, and Hydrochloric acid,,,or mercuric chloride,,,for the reduction Rxn.Do a search...P2P From Styrene(or Styrofoam...available wherever picnic supplies are sold...or by the Steam Extraction,at 150*-C., of a solution Ephedrine, Sulfuric acid, and Zinc Chloride ... to remove the Ketone as it is being produced, this Rxn also provides the methylammonium sulphate salt that can be basified to the methyl amine that is the second reagent that you will need...check Rhodium's website...this from the Time Capsule...circa 1976 to 1983...before the Spanish boys re-discovered the Emde Method...i.e.,the E/I/RP method... this worked for 50-years...that's how young I am)...What So Ever.For advice...PM me...and I'll ask my friend A.L.F. for the answer. It lives in the neighborhood...under a bridge, I think,...but it seems to be able to smell my beer when I pop the lid...what so ever...anyway, it always seems to show up when A HIVE Bee needs help...it loves to talk about all of this.


callen

  • Guest
HCL in the Xtal matrix...I don't think so...
« Reply #166 on: March 21, 2004, 01:32:00 AM »
My friend A.L.F stopped by today for a Cold One...when posed with this theory...it just giggled.Maybe it was after the fourth or fifth Cold One...I don't remember just now.
A.L.F. sezs," That's a crock of bullshit...as you slowly simmer the acidified Meth-Hcl-dH2O solution at 150*-F., place your NOSE above the evaporation vessel...and then WAFT(look up the meaning of the word...it will prevent you from burning out yout NOstrils...Ha...Ha...Ha...)...you will definitely sense the presence of HCL being expelled from the solution into the air above the evap. vessel...that's the reason for the FAN blowing across the surface of the evap. vessel at low speed towards an open door or window, CAUTION: Anything that is made of Iron or Steel...such as your CD player or tape player, or as in my case...my DRILL PRESS...will rust up like a motherfucker.Anyway,long before the solution completely evaporates...the presence of HCL will no longer be sensed by your NOSE. Hence, no more HCL is being driven off.So...forget that...and watch out for Katz.For more info...PM callen...not ME." :)


callen

  • Guest
The Hell...You Say...!
« Reply #167 on: March 21, 2004, 01:49:00 AM »
A resent "BUST' in my small circle of freinds resulted in a LAB ASSAY (performed by the 'COPPERS')... analysis that resolved as 'CODEINE'...Damn...all it was was Ephedrine.- Hcl., plus Guafenesin...anything can be made real...on paper...can't it. >:(


callen

  • Guest
Meet the 'Kaho-ona...Ha...Ha...Ha!
« Reply #168 on: March 21, 2004, 02:42:00 AM »
100*-C. to 110*-C...for a Long Wet Refluxc...150*-C. for a 'Quickie" 4-hr., Hot,Dry Rxn;...Not For Any Reason...Do you go above 150*-C.That would create many, many side-reaction products.


callen

  • Guest
OOp's..an omissiin,,,
« Reply #169 on: March 21, 2004, 03:21:00 AM »
Sorry... when cooking the E,SO4, and ZnCl...the P2P must be removed as it is produced...a pressure cooker that can go to 25-LBS,at 150* -C. is required...i.e., you must steam distill the P2P as it is being produced...from the reaction vessel. For details...Pm me or do a search on Rhodium's site.Where is that Fuching Kat?


callen

  • Guest
So.a friend of my wife had an experience at BI-LO
« Reply #170 on: March 21, 2004, 04:02:00 AM »
My wife's friend is shaped liked a pear,...has a 2-1/2 Ft. long poneytail, which is mostly gray.She is a Grandma.And looks like one. Not at all involved in this...all she does is work full time and a part-time job.No sex, no drugs, and no rock and roll.
 She went to a BI-LO grocery store to get a few things....a small grocery order.Among the purchses was one bottle of Iodine tincture, and two-three packs of kitchen matches,,,the cashier said to her,"Please wait here." She went off for a few minutes, and then returned.She cashed out my wife's friend .When "Grandma" arrived at the exit door...there stood the store 'MANAGER'.He stood there and watched as she went to her auto, got in and started it up, and backed up, and drove away.He got her License Plate number...and in association with the store video...is all that's needed for a charge of"Intent to Manufacture Methamphetamine"....Gets you 20-YEARS here in Georgia, U/S.A...
Don't Worry about the Katz.
:(