Author Topic: reduction of L-PAC to Meth  (Read 22713 times)

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aia2

  • Guest
How much reduction
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2004, 10:33:00 PM »

I really don't get your first question but if it's what I think it it is the answer is  just be happy enough that you didn't have to deal with pill extraction.



I think your answer to my second question clarified things for me.  The first reduction will happen no matter what, but I now understand that acidic conditions enable a second reduction on the hydroxyl group...

I think this looks very promising, and hope to meet Someone Who Isn't Me in the next few months who will try this!




ChemoSabe

  • Guest
Glad my comment proved useful
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2004, 06:31:00 AM »
Even though I've read and reread this thread ad infinitum it's still mostly over my head so I'm glad what I did write led you to a better understanding of your first Q.

All I can really say about it after a few more read-throughs is best of luck to you all working towards a one pot shot on this. You guys are blazing a very interesting trail.

Personally my intuitions lean towards something somehow incorporating Pd with all this but don't ask me why 'cuase I really don't know. :P


aia2

  • Guest
possible byproducts?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2004, 11:28:00 AM »
What's the NCH3 functional group on the imine called?  I would guess from the name 2-(methylamino)-1-phenyl-1-propanol that it's a methylamine, but NHCH3 in ephedrine and methamphetamine is also called a methylamine right?

Anyhow, I am wondering about the possible byproducts of a reduction of this imine due to incomplete reduction in acidic conditions... might there be some that only gets its hydroxyl group reduced?  Or would the double bond to NCH3 be the more attractive reduction target?  I would also suspect that some imine would only be reduced to ephedrine as well.

If my first suspected byproduct is possible, what is it?

Thanks!


Organikum

  • Guest
If Adams catalyst, platinium oxide or a ...
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2004, 01:17:00 PM »
Imine is the name of the functional group. The compound is named xxxx-xxxx-imine. Same principle like with the amines.

If Adams catalyst, platinium oxide or a similar Pt/C catalyst in acidic conditions is used, then the imine comes first followed by the hydroxy group on the alpha carbon and next to come would be the aromatic ring itself.
The reduction of the imine and the hydroxy group "overlapp", the ringreduction needs more rigid conditions. To avoid ringreduction the amount of hydrogen taken up can be measured and the reaction terminated in time. Or it can be done CTH style.

But this requires quite sophisticated equipment and catalysts and very clean starting compounds.

If Al/Hg or Zn/Hg or Zn/HCl is used ringreduction wont be a problem AFAIK, but I doubt that the OH-group will be reduced like the imine, say you will have a mixture of meth and ephedrine.

As in a plain reductive alkylation with Al/Hg and methylamine the raw extract from the biosynth can be used with very good yields it is IMHO better to do this in two steps. First l-PAC to ephedrine (or by using rougher conditions to a mixture of meth and ephedrine) followed by one of the wellknown reactions to convert this to meth exclusivly. d-meth of course.
It should be not forgotten that the recrystallized product of the alkylation is un-gakked ephedrine which is not to compare to the pfed extracts from pills. Whoever remembers the old days will back this up.
Somebody who masters the biosynth and red. alkylation for sure will be able to produce HI without phosphorus and to recover the iodine after the reaction for reuse.

If one is able to produce l-PAC but finally lost his nerves on this (pseudo)ephedrine reduction thingie, like I did, he might take a look into Bandils most famous writeups and realize that l-PAC can be converted to norephedrine the same as it is converted to ephedrine.

But first: LEARN TO MAKE BENZALDEHYDE FROM OTC COMPOUNDS BEFORE TALKING ABOUT SHORTCUTS FOR l-PAC TO METH!
got this?


aia2

  • Guest
benzaldehyde?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2004, 01:45:00 PM »
Thanks for the naming help, and also going into the different catalysts for reduction.


If Al/Hg or Zn/Hg or Zn/HCl is used ringreduction wont be a problem AFAIK, but I doubt that the OH-group will be reduced like the imine, say you will have a mixture of meth and ephedrine.




So if this mixture was used with a well known reaction, the meth already there won't be endangered right?  In that case the "l-PAC -> mumblemumble-imine -> meth+E -> meth" method might compensate for its additional step by increasing yield.  It gets two opportunities to get to methamphetamine instead of one.


But first:  LEARN TO MAKE BENZALDEHYDE FROM OTC COMPOUNDS BEFORE TALKING ABOUT SHORTCUTS FOR l-PAC TO METH!




Funny, I just got back from reading the reference in Wanted References Vol. 1 about oxidizing alcohols and ethers with hypochlorites, where they report 98% yield converting benzyl alcohol to benzaldehyde with both Calcium hypochlorite and Clorox.

However, since this is all theoretical for me for the foreseeable future, I don't really see why that's a prerequisite.


Organikum

  • Guest
HI reactions dont overreduce.
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2004, 03:42:00 PM »
HI reactions dont overreduce. Birch-style reactions with Li can well overreduce. Birch-style reactions with Na hardly do and those with K are told to do this never.

For this reason I named the HI reaction as a good one for transforming a mixture of meth and ephedrine to meth only.

If this is and stays all theory for you, the practical advise on the manufacture of benzaldehyde does not apply to yours and there is no need to complain about. I am actually posting here not only for you aia2, but for many others too - this is at least one of my most beloved illusions....  ;D


jemma_jamerson

  • Guest
otc benzaldehyde->lpac->meth
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2004, 05:28:00 PM »
forgive my ignorance, i cant find any thing in tfse, but orgy, if you go directly to BENZALDEHYDE, isnt it more practical to go straight to p2p them meth, practical meaning in yeild and ratio of precursor for BENZALDEHYDE to finalo product.

as opposed to using all your BENZALDEHYDE to make l-pac then meth?


Vitus_Verdegast

  • Guest
that depends...
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2004, 05:40:00 PM »
...if you can obtain nitroethane or 2-chloropropionic acid esters, or if the 35% yield from the aldol condensation with MEK followed by peracid oxidation is acceptable for you.

...or more concrete, whether you prefer d-methamphetamine above dl-methamphetamine, or vice versa.

But, as organikum said before, better to concentrate first on the best way to oxidize cheap paint thinner (toluene) into benzaldehyde.

:)


Rhodium

  • Guest
Yet another L-PAC to Ephedrine Amination
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2004, 01:20:00 PM »
N,N'-Dimethyl-1-phenyl-1,2-propanediamine. A Hither to Unreported Product in Ephedrine Synthesis
Seymour Hyden, Santo Emmanuele, Henry Wetstein, Godfrey Wilbert

J. Med. Chem. 10, 953-954 (1967)

(https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/pdf/ephedrine.l-pac.menh2.pdf)