beautiful

[halfkast]

beautiful presentation.

Very good functionality I'm sure.  
Thanks a lot argreich, you da bee!

[geezmeister]

Thank you for your excellent writeup. I have done this with good success and recommend it.

[wareami]

Thanx ahgreich!!!!
Now I have to go and edit a reply.....hehehehehehe!!!!
Great Write UP friend!
Excellence in Action!
---Speedy-Guns-Awe-US
Peace of the _reaction

Have FUN-Bee SAFE

[Rhodium]

What was your yields from the various preparations? I really like your basing method based on dry mixing together with soda, that's really inventive.

[SmelliumII]

Nice, very nice.  I would like to point out that my pal Ware should have been mentioned in the credits.  It was his diligent research that exposed tetra as a formidable opponent to the denaturants we've been up against.  And yet he & SWISII almost cried when they threw up their hands in disgust as the tetra alone was no match for the name brand 120's not that long ago (OVER 7 YEARS, OF COURSE).

If this simple and easy extraction method gives good yeilds, you'll join Geez, Dwarfinger, VE, and ware (AMONG OTHERS)in the Extraction Afficionado's Hall Of Shame.

[ahgreich]

ware obviously belongs with the many bees which have been conscientious(sp) journaling. They know who they bee - their rewards far exceed hive laudings:)! VE was mentioned because ahgreich plagiarized the writeup outline format, and geez should be given credit for goading ahgreich into doing the writeup.

[ahgreich]

Rhodium,
unfortunately organization is not one of ahgreich's strongpoints- the method is offered as a starting point for others - suffice it to say that one bee's experience can only be stated as 'excellent yields, yields and ease surpass any xtract method yet tried by ahgreich' : that statement holds true also after utilizing the Straight to E on for size.
boxliness:
the concept of immobilizing or 'neutralizing (in the activity sense)' the unwanted stuff in order to get to the good stuff seems to this bee a problem-solving/thought rearrangement structure that could probably bee applied to other clandestine vexations : it's a figure/ground kinda thing that is easy to miss.

[midway]

A quick reminder to everyone to be careful using tetra due to its action as a carcinogen. Just wear gloves and try not to breathe it in.
otherwise, its great!
midway

[SHORTY]

I was probably one of the first to try this and it worked fine then and sure it does now but without any source for tetra im at a loss.

Excellent writeup!!!!

I was wondering if you were gonna do one, or a nice fancy one anyways.

[ahgreich]

ahgreich found this way after using up the tiny can of tri-chloroethylene garnered from a large sporting-goods outlet as gun cleaner. The tri did seem to work: ahgreich hasn't looked for tri since tetra is so easy to find. did a couple of xperiments with di-ethyleneglycol with very limitied success and much trepidation and shennanigans to keep the bottom goo from seeping up. Might be worth a shot to saturate PM with di-eglycol, cover with 1/2" of clean sand, and then top with tolly before dh20...conjecture only.
there might also be some opportunity to use the sand as the primary trap for the fb - just put enough tolly to saturate the sand layer, heat, then scrape most of the sand layer off the di-eglycol saturated mass and post-process (perhaps put in solven/fb/sand in filter and run more tolly through it to clear the FB out). opportunities when siezed, multiply.

[SHORTY]

Im sure they have it here but so far i haven't had any luck finding it on the cans that are in english anyways.  I thought i had found it a while back in an electrical cleaner imported from oz but after buying it for a hefty price i found it was not tetra.

[wareami]

and algreich's assessment regarding rewards couldn't bee more exact. Just knowing and working with great minds such as smelliumII and all the Do-Bees is more than Ibee could have ever dreamed of and continues to exceed his wildest expectations!

Ibee has never worked with FB pfed but out of gratitude and respect he plans on recording some specifics regarding yield and other factors as they relate to this right-UP!

Many thanx to all the Do-Bees that continue to strive toward making a difference with the colony's best interest at heart!





Peace of the _reaction

Have FUN-Bee SAFE

[Scottydog]

Swim usually extracts 4 carafes back to back. Two pulls per carafe.

Each carafe containing 15 boxes of generic 12 hr 120's (20 ct) approx 75-90 gs of Na carbonate and 8 tablespoons of water. Another tablespoon of water is added with fresh toluene for the 2nd pull.

He consistently yields between 88-94 gs each time. (60 boxes) After recrystallization.

Swim believes that PEG follows through into the NP and must bee removed in the end through recrystallization.

The FB is brought to a light boil in a few cm of water, then allowed to come to room temp and then the water is decanted. (This was mentioned in another thread)

This is repeated until the FB/ water no longer appears yellow. 3x works great!

Swim prefers these pills now because pretty much no one else does.

Probably the fastest pseudo extraction method on the-hive!

Thanks again ahgreich!

Why all the torture?  

[halfkast]

>>What was your yields from the various preparations? I really like your basing method based on dry mixing together with soda, that's really inventive.

Thats right Rhodium, the dry mixing of the base and psudo.
The tetra optimises it.

dry mixing does work to some extent without tetra, but there are emulsions and the sudo fb upon evaporation is sticky and messy, this is on the very finest of gakked pills I'm talking about.


ahgreich I shall return to ask a couple of questions if the other bees don't ask them within a week, if your not too much of a celebrity.

[pbm777]

nice write up and nice clean.
If I am not mistaken you mean pH up which would be sodium carbonate [soda ash]
pH down would most likey bee sodium bisulfate....
I might bee mistaken but I do have a pretty stable pool        

[ahgreich]

it's all one big circle, man! down, up, hey, it's all about the Man keeping us bees down!

[Coitus]

I can definately verify this as a good method. I usually wash the red shit off and give it a tolly boil first, then dry completely & procede with this method. Works great but I agree some peg still gets thru. Not too much to manage the final workup.

[auntyjack]

they likes their paracetamol in australia!!.....how is this proceedure likely to fare against said molecule??...and about the ph up/down....it reminds me of audio equipment instruction manuals...turn knob fully to left...BANG!!!...must have meant fully to the right...
...have fun...

[halfkast]

Cold water is a good paracetemol removal tool. I knew this guy who did it once.

[ahgreich]

You are suggesting a final wash with cold h20, not a pill mass wash with it, correct??

[halfkast]

I didn't suggest a procedural position because that's the biggest consideration and I thought best left to the cleaner.

I'd go like this if I had the practical knowhow, tetra rinse to remove hydrogels specifically, cold water extract and evaporate, then straight in to his highness' (that'd bee you   ) procedure.
Only beecause the paracetamol will mess up the amount of base to use.

You can thank the talented Osmium for this but when you do it, boil the water and use a spatula to lift out any clear or shiney solutions floating on the surface.  

[ahgreich]

yet strangely, the people state that they are the finest silks!
SWATE has never messed with the tylacetamoledrin, will sit this round out.

[nosefirst]

Thanks ahgreich!!!!! You have made it so easy! Worked like magic first time. Diamonds forever.

[ol8dbee]

ol8d was under the impression that leaving the pill mass in the tetra too long is not a good thing, gak will re-attach. Is there something about this method that prevents this from happening?  Does the naptha grab it first? Or what?
 Thanks for another new clean.
ol8dbee

[ahgreich]

Not sure what you mean by that. swddae current assumption is that the gaks are first taken up by the tetra, and the 2nd NP on top will not pull the gak out of the tetra. the addition of the h20 and heat causes the pseudo to change phase and migrate to the upper NP.  Not sure if the gaks would fall out of the tetra over time or not - could be that upon cooling the solvent might not have as great a capacity. In a scenario in which one left 'the works' sitting for a couple of days (toluene on top of tetra soaked PM with h20 alread added) - application of heat for 4 or 5 minutes and decantation resulted in the same excellent results (with 240's and 120's).

[wareami]

>they likes their paracetamol in australia!!.....how is this proceedure likely to fare against said molecule??

If Ibee were to mess with the pain relieving cold formula pills, his method of choice for removing said side ingredients would include an A/B someware in the picture. This approach that algreich came UP with would seemingly be a good candidate for those pills as it's a novel approach utilizing that same principal. Plus it eliminates the extra time needed to bring it back to hcl form.
Ibee always steered clear of the possibilities utilizing basing primarily because the opposition targets pH to thwart extraction. But secondarily because he got so use to taking it back to hcl salt because of his inexperience with FB Pfed.
I think aunty might be pleasantly surprised if she were to put what's available(coldpills) to the test. Just a hunch!
Halfkast brings UP a good point concerning amounts.....pillmass vs so.carb.
Minor adjusting I'm sure...but be sure to account for the extra pillmass.


>ol8d was under the impression that leaving the pill mass in the tetra too long is not a good thing, gak will re-attach

That is correct when using tetra alone at room temp. 60-90 seconds max seems to be the limit before activity slows and the polys grab on pfed again. That same cleavage activity will occur if the initial filtration is too restrictive as the pillmass is exposed longer to the poly's as they settle down.
There is a noticible difference when using combo solvents such as japan drier and acetone with tetra in regards to wash times. Ibee finds that 3 minute washes don't hurt a bit using the combo but he observes the excelerated activity of the poly's in the pillmass while in solution. It's only when this activity slows that the difference becomes noticible in the end when allowed to sit too long.
Heat was always another factor that seemed to hurt yields when using tetra alone to wash pillmass. Ibee's fucked with sooooo much tetra over the years that his exposure level limits him from attempting such things as heating tetra on a regular basis unless adequate ventilation is in place.

But all in all, the fact that the pH of the pillmass is Basic and all this is taking place in the presence of toulene and tetra, it's no small wonder why this works so well.

Ibee always knew that a time would come when tetra would become a necessary part of successful extractions! That was a no-brainer to him because it's so effective at removing  the long list of polymers they keep adding to pills
Peace of the _REaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE

[nosefirst]

With 60mg Ephedrine Plus (Guaif,etc.) The trap yielded a nice powder, but no crystals. This a big improvement over what I've been able to get with this stuff so far. I've run the trap 6 times so far with the red hots and 12 hrs with the same excellent results every time. Any suggeations? I'd really like to crack this nut cause it's so easy to get this stuff over psuedo around here. Everybody seems to be so 'Psuedo conscious' in the stores. Sugestions please!

[nosefirst]

OH....almost forgot, What about re-cycling the vm&p? Seem to be going through a lot of it.

[auntyjack]

ok, ahgreich says,"Combine approximately the same volume of sodium carbonate as unground pill volume...grab a handful of carbonate and toss an eyeballed estimate on top of the pills." then wareami has this to say,"Halfkast brings UP a good point concerning amounts.....pillmass vs so.carb.
Minor adjusting I'm sure...but be sure to account for the extra pillmass." i,m just wondering if i can get a rough figure of how much...20%,50%,100% more etc.(thats with 500 mg paracetamol,30 mg sudo)....oh yeah, thanks for the paracetamol answers...bloody excellent...will have reports on the tetra vs aussie sinus pills in a couple of weeks!....have fun!

[wareami]

auntyjack: With the "roughing it" estimation with the sod.carb, that Ibee completely overlooked til now, he recommends following the write-UP and not to add extra. Stay with aprox. equal volumes.
The extract "should" weed out the pararcet.
The water thingy always confused the Kidz because how is one suppose to separate something from something that both are soluble in. ie....Pfed and paracet if you get the drift!
Since their was never a finite method for the pain relievers, other than a/b that Ibee could discern, the successful trick had to be with the basing. Not pulling the paracet with cold h2o.
So carry on and good luck!
nosefirst: Ibee recently ran into a post by Rhodium that discuss the proper way to recycle Non-polars if I'm not mistaken but can't recall the thread off-hand!
Maybe someone else isn't suffering as bad from memory loss and wouldn't mind posting a link to it!
Peace of the _REaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE

[halfkast]

The water thingy always confused the Kidz because how is one suppose to separate something from something that both are soluble in. ie....Pfed and paracet if you get the drift!
Since their was never a finite method for the pain relievers, other than a/b that Ibee could discern, the successful trick had to be with the basing. Not pulling the paracet with cold h2o.
So carry on and good luck!


This is why cold water is chosen and not an A/B.


So you carry on and good luck ware! HAHa I got ya you PET.    

Ware paracetemol is scantly soluble in water at low temperatures. pfed is.

[dwarfer]

8. decant all liquid from beaker into a suitable heat-resistant glass pan, bowl, etc.

OK lemmee ask a question.

You've saturated the GUP's with tetra,
put in the overlaying xylene or tol,
and a cupplea tsps. ":<) H2O.

Then you decant all INCLUDING the water thru a filter?

Or do you leave the water behind, or separate it?

<<Neither I nor the long lost Marvey have done this,
but it seems to me that washing the NP after filtering, with cold water, may be good.

(this may have been aleady covered, in which case I apologize..)

[SHORTY]

Since i have yet to find tetra where i live i figured i would try this vcr cleaner shit that i had sittin on the shelf.  The label doesn't list any ingredients but it says safe on all plastic, leaves no residue and non-toxic so i figured it would bee ok.

I followed the write-up as written except i also used n-hexane for the np.  It worked fine and the n-hexane evaps very fast compared to tol or xly.  It was neccessary to wash the fb crystals with dh20 to remove what i suspect is peg.  I just scraped them off the evap dish into a coffee filter then rinsed the plate into the filter and squirted the dh20 onto the crystals until they where clear and then the worst part which is waiting for them to dry.  After several hours still not dry but the next day finally bone dry.

[halfkast]

HAha! That's so cool Shortie well done.
really happy with that finding.
so this solvent was non-toxic, and it didn't form a bottom layer but mixed with the n-hexane I'm guessing?
i wonder what it was?

[SHORTY]

Tetra although i seriously doubt it.  I couldn't tell how it interacted with the hexane cause i only used enough to dampen the gups.  Whatever it was it managed to keep the gups from floating and getting in the way and i was able to pour off all the hexane until nothing else would drain out.  Then added more along with about 5ml of dh20 stirred, boiled and poured off the hexane again.

As far as the water, i assume it gets absorbed by the sodium carbonate and gups.  When using toluene as the np then it would probably bee possible to actually boil the water out.  Hey, is that what we are supposed to be doing?  Makes sense but i never got it hot enough to boil out the water on prior extractions using tol. 

Is it suppose to bee that we add the water to bring out the fb and then boil the np until it reaches the boiling point of tol or at least 105 and then pour off the np?

[ahgreich]

the h20 is indeed kept in the gups. seriously doubt that the h20 gets boiled out, and the decanted liquid has always consisted of 1 layer in swib's xperience. n-whatever sounds nice for easier evap. The vmp freeze works but is not good for the impatient.
free de mind an de ass will follow.

[nosefirst]

Could I just add more VM&P for a 2nd pull? Nose has been drying and repeating everything.

[nosefirst]

Forgot to mention...Trap works great on Red Devils W/orange gakk from Costa-Co.

[SHORTY]

As far as i know there is no need to dry it between pulls but since you have been doing it this way, how many pulls did you do?  Was there alot on the 2nd and 3rd pulls?  What about overall yeild?

[nosefirst]

Today was the first time I've done a third pull. The results looked negligable, but it wasn't that cold today. Its in the back of my truck and I'll be able to tell in the AM. Second pulls have been worth it even for a getto job. I'd say about 2 or 3 grams. First pulls have been so laden they were droping crystals as soon as I decanted. I may need to add more vmp to begin with. Overall yield...hard to say, I've never even seen a scale, but I've seen lots of grams, or what was supposed to be, and I'd say it's at least 7 from 3x96x30mg. Looking forward to my first rxn.

[SHORTY]

7 grams would be a little over 80% yeild.  Can't complain about that.  My last extraction was of 300 60's w/trip and i got back 8.4g fb pseudo which would bee 10.2g hcl or 56% yeild.  Don't know what i am doing wrong but i can't much more than that no matter what method i use on these pills.

[ahgreich]

just follow the write-up. Additional pulls can be done with more vmp and a squirt. Bee carefull to moderate thy use of h20, as once you 'cross the line' you will be up shit creek with a big-ole sticky plastic gak-ball. swib's never dried between pulls.
the only variation that ahgreich has found to be truly promising is to squeeze out the first couple of tetra soakings, then proceed as normal - some gakk gets removed with the initial tetra that might reduce the already minimal gak that makes it through otherwise.

[wareami]

Ibee's minimal experience with tetra  has always suggested that timing is everything.
Most of the routes to finetooning in relation to yields has cum about by adjusting setting times and solvent moisture of GUPS before moving ON to the next steps!
Squeezing off excess tetra has always acted as a poly vehicle for the kidz!
Peace of the _REaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE

[Organikum]

thats what I found out too whilst away.
Good work btw.
I used to boil in tetra til clear, wash with toluene, basify and extract with toluene.
Will try it your way next - sounds even more easy!

congrats
ORG

[ahgreich]

After adding the squirt, stick the whole mess in a mic for a minute or so (stop every 20 seconds to observe and vent). Last xtract of 30 240's in a china teacup, only heat applied at all was 1 minute in microwave, decanted after settling for 2 minutes or so, humm-dinger.
One ghetto way of determining whether to abuse the gups further - let it sit and dry for a couple of days. any FB will be sparkly and quite evident.

[energizer]

Wareami, I see you mentioned JD in this thread. Just wondering if you're using it in conjunction with Ahgreich's method? Great write-up!

[wareami]

Keeping the cats in bags is a full time job around here!


energizer: You've been reading too much    and must have yer threads mixed UP...
After rereading this thread, I see no mention of JD
Ibee strictly uses JD to battle orangeII gaak and he is still in studymode in regards to FB pfed.
Experimentation is slated to commence soon.
Nothing so far has been reported about OrangeII gaak showing UP after employing the tetratrap, so chances are slim that it will used as it would introduce variables not included in the write-UP.
Ibee tends to complicate things only as a last ditch effort
Peace of the _REaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE

[Scottydog]

Concerning 120's...

After boiling with toluene to extract the freebase and running the solvent through the cottonball filter.

The time comes to finally evaporate the solvent.

It has been noted that some PEG comes through, as miniscule as it might bee.

It is evidenced by its yellow, oil-like consistency.

It has been debated that Orange2 gakk may actually bee a heavier weight PEG?

Swim feels that whatever it is, is easiest to remove at the freebase stage.

It is best NOT to totally evaporate all of the solvent.

Once the solvent is gone, where does the gakk go? It reattaches itself to the pseudo!

It is best to evaporate the tolly until a "skin" starts to form (supersaturated) and then turn off the heat (leaving the evaporation dish) still on the hotplate and allowing it to slowly cool.

When totally cool a clear/white crystalline mass will have formed at the bottom in a yellow oil-like/ toluene layer.

This oil/gakk/tolly layer can bee simply poured off. Some of this oil layer may get trapped under the crystalline mass. A screwdriver or glass stir rod can bee employed to tear a chunk of FB away from the wall of the dish to allow the remaining oil to bee decanted.

In a dream, Swim recrystallized 1x with water.

Then he took the freebase, scrapped it into a 1 qt mason (added fresh toluene with equal volume of water)

Then the goal was to drip in muriatic acid until the water layer reaches a Ph of 6.

After shaking the jar like hell one can separate the water from the toluene with a turkey baster.

Filter the water through a charmin plug.

Evaporate the water.

Wash the crystals with acetone.

Swim swears it is some of the cleanest pseudo HCl that he has ever seen.

He feels that any yield loss is negligible.

No PEG/ Orange2 gakk

[superman]

possibly i'm blind but it seems like there's no sodium carbonate where i've been looking.  bicarbonate shou8ld work just as well right? same amount should make no difference as well?

[jello]

Sodium carbonate is really easy to find if you live in the US or Canada, most likely everywhere that has swimming pools. They even have it at supermarkets where I'm from (Los Angeles). Just go to Wally's or your local "home improvement superstore" and look for the pool care aisle. It's hard to miss!

[Un_Chambered]

Check by the laundry detergents in the supermarket,look for "washing soda" or "super washing soda".
Peace,Chambered

[Scottydog]

"bicarbonate shou8ld work just as well right? same amount should make no difference as well?"

*******

Swim just buys baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and pours it into a pyrex pie plate and bakes it in the oven, 350° for about an hour and a half.

[superman]

strangely enough i checked two canadian supermarkets and neither had washing soda in the detergents section.   great tip scotty, decompose the bicarb w/heat.   thanks for the answers guys

[SQUIDIPPY]

Check by the laundry detergents in the supermarket,look for "washing soda" or "super washing soda

Look right beside the Borax.

[spectralshift]

[suss]

Hey all,

Is it OK to use xylene instead of toluene for the tetra trap? Can anyone verify it's success with xylene?

Cheers.

[geezmeister]

Xylene presents the problem of having a noxious smell if evaporated. Much worse than tolulene. If you can't use tolly, I suggest VM&P naptha, hot, with chilling after the extraction to produce freebase crystals rather than evaporation. Xylene will extract the pseudo fb very well, but you may wish to gas for the HCl form rather than evaporate.

[SHORTY]

I have been using xylene instead of toluene and do as geez suggested and gas for the hcl form.  I gas and then do the xylene precipatation in the same xylene with excellent results.  Xylene takes forever to evap but if you don't mind waiting it will work.

[gluecifer69]

Is there a specific reason for not titrating Xylene?  Scottydog metioned that he had excellent results titrating tolly.

Just wondering?

[suss]

Excuse me in my ignorance, but.....

1) Here we go again! That damn VM&P naptha! Swim tells you, this stuff just does not seem to exist in Oz. He's sure it does, but is called something else. But he just can't find it, at least not from a convienient source. Swim can't store chemicals for risk of detection, and thus needs to be able to purchase them easily. Can he use someting else? Is aromatic naptha OK? He can get that easy in the form of enamel paint thinner. What about mineral turps or acetone? he can also get xylene easy, but....

2) Why is it necessary to gas with xylene and not with toluene? Can you just acidify instead? What advantage does this provide, and how will it affect the MA synth? What is the probelem with not gassing (or acidifying if that works)? Why does a change in the solvent require a different extraction (evap or gas) technique?

Sorry about the really dumb questions, but your advice would be much appreciated.

[Scottydog]

Both toluol and xylol will work just fine. Swim has evaporated both. He agrees with Geez that evaporating xylol is nasty smelling shit and is a very quick way to get LE or curious neighbors out to the workspace.

Swim is almost certain that titrating with xylol will work. The only problem (same as with tolly) is that polyethylene glycol WILL follow through. A almost guaranteed reaction killer!

Must bee ditched at the freebase stage "poured off" (post evap) and then add fresh solvent, water and then it would bee cool to drop the pseudo into the polar with muriatic.

Swim to this day has never heard any of the bees that prefer to gas instead of titrate (to get the HCl form) complain of PEG contamination.

I'm sure it has been brought up before and I believe Geez was the one, but Swim has yet to gas with this method. When one chooses to gas rather then titrate he suspects that the PEG remains in the tolly or xylene when the crystals are filtered off.

Can anyone confirm?

Hope this helps...

[ahgreich]

as geez stated, the vmp chill is a great way to get the crystals sans evaporation. after the crystals are filtered, it's easy to wash them with cold dh20 while still in the filter. in case no one has mentioned it yet, the VMP freeze done in a very clean beaker is a fascinating thing to see, quite holographic.

[spectralshift]

as geez stated, the vmp chill is a great way to get the crystals sans evaporation. after the crystals are filtered, it's easy to wash them with cold dh20 while still in the filter. in case no one has mentioned it yet, the VMP freeze done in a very clean beaker is a fascinating thing to see, quite holographic.


Actually it's a shit technique and always has been.

OTC Naphtha's have all sorts of hydrocarbons in them, even from brand to brand.

There's every chance there are phat traces of hydrocarbons that hold on even at low temperatures.

How you figure it just isn't possible is beyond me, especially when you don't what VMP even is. What, what is it? Ya don't know, and you don't even know what clever jones is usin'.

It's typically nonane and decane, but even if I bought a solvent that explicity stated that's what it contained I'd never use it like that technique is described.

It's a good to v.good solvent for a wash, and nothing else.

I only say it's a very good washing solvent because it's often a primarily two component hc + only healthy traces of others.

That's why I say that any hydrocarbon based paint-thinner or spray can is going to bee a great solvent for cleaning pills, and ive seen it with my own eyes.

[SHORTY]

Why the name change?  Anyways, to give my opinion on the above question about tolune and xylene.  Xylene is a better solvent for gassing cause it seems less able to hold any water and because it will keep more gaaks dissolved while precipitating the psuedo.  I prefer to use toluene for titrating because if i am in a hurry, which is usually the case, and i don't wait long enough for the layers to seperate, a little tol in the evap dish goes unoticed.   With xylene i always get a slightly oily result.  However, both can bee used with proper technique.

[energizer_bunny]

solvent can bee used for titration successfully.
The same goes for gassing.
Some are more receptive toward the amine being extracted.
It's true that some are more selective toward attracting gaaks, ie PEG...tween80...etc...
The trick is in removing them before rxn.
Ether seems to be the best extraction medium for pulling meth. The smell and it's association makes it a bad choice for cooks and apprentices.
xylene...toluene....naptha(warm), all will extract meth or pfed successfully. Titrating or gassing.

[spectralshift]

*nods*

banned, well it was I don't know if it still is. heeh my fault though for sure, gradual deterioration, then abusive rampage.
Need time away, i get bored easily, refuse to even think sometimes, ignore rules and also childish. and thats all.  

Xylene is a better solvent for gassing cause it seems less able to hold any water and because it will keep more gaaks dissolved while precipitating the psuedo.  I prefer to use toluene for titrating because if i am in a hurry, which is usually the case, and i don't wait long enough for the layers to seperate, a little tol in the evap dish goes unoticed.   With xylene i always get a slightly oily result.  However, both can bee used with proper technique.

Ill remember that, xylene for gassing, toluene for titration.
Your right toluene holds more water.


It'd bee nice to have detailed soly data so we could explore lowering the temperature of the NP's for extraction.

[ahgreich]

concerning the dh20 wash while the crystals are still in the filter - that would, of course, occur AFTER the residual vmp is evaporated, to remove residual PEG.

[geezmeister]

You can titrate xylene all you want. You usually will find that it is such an agressive solvent it will dissolve a few things in the mix that will come out when you titrate, but will not come out when you gas.

You will get a good product when you gas, and xylene lends itself to gassing very well as it just doesn't hold moisture.

If you extract meth with xylene and titrate, you will find some trash in your meth everytime that you will not find if you gas. This is not a knock on xylene, it is an observation of what happens when you titrate for meth HCl.


I'm sorry you folks from OZ can't get our perfectly good VM&P natptha, but until you have the opportunity to use its particular characteristics to your advantantage, I would suggest that you not knock it on your theoretical musings. Knocking it without experiencing it happens to be a disservice to those who can obtain it. Hot VM&P naptha is my solvent of choice for meth extraction, mostly because it is such a poor solvent over all that it rarely brings trash with it. The extraction tends to be cleaner from the start.

[gluecifer69]

Just want to make one thing clear, swim never claimed to have used VM+P Naptha, but the petroleum distillate paint thinners Coleman's and charcoal starters swim has before used a time ago for what swim thought would be a substitute for  Varnish Makers and Painters Naptha.

Swim stated that these so called naptha substitutes (petroleom distillites), make for poor post rxn NP's unless hot, but that is just swims experience.
    Obviously there is no substitute, correct?

[geezmeister]

VM&P naptha is a poor meth solvent unless hot. In fact, its a pretty poor solvent, period, but just happens to be an excellent meth solvent when hot. Used hot, it is still a poor solvent for much anything else. Hence, it is a great solvent to use hot to extract meth. The same is true of camp fuel.

[spectralshift]

I think that my past comments may have polluted what you think I think geezmeister.


Don't feel bad, it isn't wanted, there are better solvents to do the job.

I'd say enamel paint thinner in Oz is pretty close to Vanish Maker and Paint naptha up there, maybee better. I'd say so.

Anyone, and I think an Oz bee or two is included in this...who has achieved similar-identical results is just coincidence.

Where have you or VE described what the stuff actually is? No where.

I've seen tens of naptha msds, they arent all right.


If it's so tentative at dissolving pfed, and meth (?), why would you use it, when theres relatively pure aromatics like tolly and xyly available to make things certain?

[suss]

Spec,

Me being a newbee may be totally wrong, but what I have gathered is this:

I think the advantage of using hot naptha is that it is readily available (at least in the US) solvent that is relatively weak, but still dissolves meth. Because of this, the solvent will satisfactorily dissolve meth, but has less chance of dissolving other gakks and shit. If you use xylene, it is a very strong solvent, which as you mentioned, dissolves meth bloody well, but you risk dissolving other compounds as well - thus contaminating the final product.

Hope this makes sense. Would one of the pros correct me if I'm wrong cause I want to understand this.

What Swim wants to know also, is if enamel thinners (containing "aromatic naptha") are a suitable substitute.

[spectralshift]

That's all rightish, but what that side ignores, overlooks is that it can contain impurities of other solvents.

Well you can use it, and I'd heat it, in case it is as weak as that side says...

I think it makes more sense to tamper with the temperature of xylene, well that's what I'd prefer.

See, I've been outspoken and have said tongue in cheek (hehe tongue in gash - mmm) things that probably make it seem as though I'm just complaining that I don't have it.

But this is the case:

1. S2E called for VMP and none other with no real details, however i trusted and went along with that. it needed to bee found.

2. Oz bees started asking what it is called in Oz and where to source.  There is nothing called VMP nap in Oz but we decided to look at US formulas and there were many formulas. But the basic idea was that they were low aromatic hydrocarbons,

Look up VM&P naphtha, they are all different! That's when I figured 'the idiots! how can they describe that VM&P naphtha does this at whatever temperature when I've just found 3 different formula's at 3 different sites?? I'm not gonna use this shit, I don't wannit even! They don't even know what they're using, because if they did I wouldn't bee researching it'

anyway im not saying it for me, obviously if i liked the advertisements I would have ordered some.

If youve been getting pristine results and yields havent suffered due to the method then by all means do it, but you can't just say "VM&P Naptha does this..."

Anyway it's Naptha WO/WAR/Jihad On The Boards!

[geezmeister]

If it's so tentative at dissolving pfed, and meth (?), why would you use it, when theres relatively pure aromatics like tolly and xyly available to make things certain?

I use it for precisely that reason.

It is a poor solvent, described by the posts I recall as being notoriously "lazy."

Use it at room temperature and you will leave pseudo and meth in abundance behind, unless you use such large quantitites of naptha that it borders on the absurd.

Heat that naptha up, and as far as pseudo or meth are concerned, it becomes a very good solvent--- but not necessary a very good solvent for a lot of other things that may be in that mix, things that will dissolve in tolly or xylene, or other good aromatics. With HOT naptha, you get the meth without a few other things that seem to come everytime you use xylene or tolly. The final product is cleaner right out of the evap dish. Isn't that one of our goals?

I didn't discover this, by any stretch of the imagination. Jacked made the point to me years ago discussing Coleman fuel, which works great, but which I detest because of the antioxidant. I have used clean camp fuels but in my area the purchase of VM&P naptha can be made without raising an eyebrow, while the purchase of camp fuel always gets a stare. With an ounce or so of meth to be extracted, the four and half dollar price difference is small change.

Try extracting with hot naptha, or hot camp fuel. See what difference it makes in the cleanliness of the product before recrystallization and it will make a believer out of you. You use its weaknesses to your advantage.

 The great disadvantage is that it must be heated to nearly its boiling point to really utilize the advantage. There are risks in doing this which should not be minimalized. Hot naptha is an angry beast, and can cause severe burns. Make sure the fans are in place, sparkless heat sources used, and the naptha brought close to but not to its boiling point. These reduce, but do not eliminate, the risks.

[Prepuce]

This is easily the best and easiest cure SWIM has ever tried.  Saying thanks for all of the hard work that went into this discovery doesn't begin to express SWIM's gratitude.

This procedure worked so quickly and easily that SWIM decided to try it on some of the cheapest raw materials he could find. Disclosed inactives were: carnauba wax, corn startch, flavor, hydroxypropl methylcellulose, lactose, magnesium stearate, PEG, povidone, sucrose. In addition they had the kind of red shell that is nearly impossible to remove, so he just ground 'em up whole and tossed them into the beaker. Then he remembered two boxes of white 60's containing another laundry list of inactives.WTF. In they went.

Everything looked normal until after freezing the vm&p and time to filter. But what plopped out into the funnel was a large blob of what looked like turkey gellatin. All it did was sit there--no sign of melting as it warmed. He took this mess, funnel and all, and plugged it into his vaccuum filtration rig and grabbed a can of brake cleaner (tetra), carefully spraying it into the jello. The blob immediately melted away leaving the cleanest bacth of crystals he ever saw. Pristine, they were, and gone was any evidence of PEG. He let the aspiration continue for another minute or two, then spread out the sparkling white crystals which dried in about five minutes.

SWIM was also wondering about the addition of water and why it didn't gum things up right from the beginning. He imagines that the psuedo is already converted to FB before the H2O hits it, and has become mostly insoluble by then. Not so for the gak. Ha!

How much would you pay for a technique like this? But wait, don't answer yet! Because if you order before midnight tonight, you also get this suggestion. AFter extracting everything you can from freezing the vm&p, hit what's left with a little HCl and watch for stormy weather!

PP

[ahgreich]

the blob of jello might have been avoided by first soaking the pill mass/carbonate with tetra, heat, squeeze out excess tetra, repeat. proceed as normal (top with vmp and add h20)

[spectralshift]

I use it for precisely that reason.

It is a poor solvent, described by the posts I recall as being notoriously "lazy".

I know, I know what your saying.


Well, maybe it could be considered going the opposite direction with a more pure, definable solvent.

Maybe the fact that we know that very cold VM&P tends to precipitate very pure pfed, we can summise from that that controlling the temperature of concentrated or near concentrated NP solutions is a good way to single out substances in general.
Gaks or pfed, it doesn't matter.
This is towards the end of a procedure of course, not the whole way, too arduous.


Anyway.

[JUMPER]

Would like to also thank for the great write-ups in this thread on method.  However there is so much info in TFSE that sometimes it takes much patience to filter through the opinions to get to something concrete. SUSS(stranger), from me to you, please in the future at least type the word of what you want to know in the FSE! Xylene, Toluene, Naptha, whatever! There is a fucking book in here on those chemicals of info alone.  I also believe it's covered in what the newbees coming here are suppose to read for the basics.  I'm not trying to fuck with you. Your FSE question lead to the other bees bickering over shit that I have seen time and time again. Clogging up good threads with repetative opinions or shit that's already been hashed out tenfold in TFSE.  Is there a race to get to the next bee level that I'm unaware of? I'm reading a great thread and then this FSE shit!  You older bee's know that shit's already here and you also know that you found what you liked from your own success with certain chems trying each if smart. Maybe it's because you older bee's don't have to use TFSE because you have found your groove. But this bickering shit that you should be PM'ing eachother is why it takes so long to get through the repetitious opinions and find answers.  Strangers and Newbees what I've read so far, which is a lot, has shown me that if you have had no experience like myself until finding this site. You first search what precursers you need and ways of obtaining. Then go search what lab equipment each method or rxn takes, if it's available, if you understand how the equipment works, how much money you got! Once you have knowledge of the precursers and the equipment down, you can pick the method you want to try. Don't worry about the variations of the method yet, just which one you'll fuck up first(I mean attempt)! And then search for every chemical and step can be involved or used and how many ways it can be used. Research how many variations of time,quantities,mixtures,cleanings,extractions, and on and on. Write down everything in these searches that two or three bee's with experience agree on (Ha Ha), write it all down cause you'll never remember after your head explodes from stress. Then take your information and go see what is available for you in your area, what will work best in your lab environment, what dangers are you willing to deal with? Meaning things like heating,smells,spills,fires,and people that carry handcuffs with the little man complex. Once you've got the info, see what's available, get the appropriate safety shit for what you're going to use,and process through what will work in your lab or truck; you're ready to go get a mark who has half a brain and bring him over. Give him a list of each item with specific quantities, prices, stores, alternate names, what he is using it for if asked, and anything he could fuck up. Tell him to buy each item separately as written at any given store even if he has to go back five different times. Have him read everything over, give him the money, tell him to call you from a payphone when he's almost done, and then to take everything once bought to his house and you'll come by later.  Then drive over close to his house and watch for him to get home. The handcuff fuckers have to stay in eye contact with a vehicle they are following and most taught to stay in the 3rd to 4th car spot. So if your mark didn't follow directions or made the store or security uncomfortable, you can see if there are problems. Most are being trained now to not apprehend but to follow since most smart people that play have others get items for them. You can then drive all around the blocks surrounding if everything seems cool and look for any car parked with a driver that can visible see the house. They are taught to keep an eye for between 1/2hr to 1hr after arriving and they are usually sitting in their car doing their paperwork. Once you have checked everything to be cool, then call your mark and tell him you changed your mind and bring everything over to your house. Then watch him come out and follow him in that 3rd or 4th position to your house. Keep an eye behind and in front of you and see if any cars are going your way. The handcuff people are being taught better and better as we know. Some might think this to be overkill on playing with glassware and in some parts of certain countries it is. In the United States 90% of p-l-ce departments go off of standard opererating guidelines of three or four different texts from the largest p-l-ce forces and proven techniques. These are adopted to smaller depts. The items I've explained are pretty standard throughout all texts depending on the threat involved. But as far as the U.S. and the threat of suspicious activity with honey, this is what you can expect for a little while, depending on how many use this site and read this.
  Well I'm not sure how I went from the bitching I was trying to do, to telling others how they should proceed when I'm new at this also, to busting out procedures of certain people who are going to be pissed at me, but fuck em if they can't keep their texts from me or their employees from talking. This was way too much shit for one post!

[SHORTY]

Jumper, you have alot of nerve bitching about other bees clogging up the threads.  I mean look at your post, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic in this thread.

When you do have something on topic to say please try using paragraphs.  Also i think that your idea for alluding the "people with handcuffs" would draw more attention than just buying the stuff without being paranoid.

[suss]

Ok,

Swim is sure this question will bug some bees, and if it does he is sorry. If it bugs you just ignore this post and don't reply. 

Swim wants his first dream to be a success - he is easily put off by initial failures, and understands that pseudo purity is of great importance to achieving good results.

Swim does not wish to make meth in great quantities. He just wants an absolutely kick-ass product for personal use that will keep him up for days and minimise neurodamage. So we will assume that he therefore does not mind wasting a little extra solvent if the final product is worth it. He has been reading that some PEG comes through with the tetra trap, and is wondering if the following procedure would improve things. It is basically a summary of all the "tips" in this thread, and swim hopes using this method will remove the need for recrystallisation of the sudo to remove PEG, etc:

1. Grind pills only in coffee grinder.
2. Soak in tetra, heat on hotplate for, say, 10-20 min.
3. Decant off/filter off tetra
4. Repeat steps 2-3
5. Dry pill mass (this step probably not needed)
6. Soak pill mass in xylene, heat for 10-20 min.
7. Decant/filter off xylene.
8. Repeat steps 6-7

(It is probable that these soaks could be done simultaneously to save time using a mixture of tetra and xylene - any advice here?)

9. Dry pill mass completely in oven. Place in grinder with sodium carbonate, continue on with tetra trap extraction.

10. Instead of using toluene or naptha for the final step, use xylene and gas for final product.

So, what do you think? This is merely the theoretical ramblings of a beginner bee, but as he sees it, the preliminary washes should remove any PEG and other impurities that could be extracted by xylene in the final step. Is he right here?

[geezmeister]

Suss, do a tetra wash, you don't need a long soak. Ninety seconds is fine. Don't even need to heat it. Rinse the pill mass with more tetra, then squeeze it out with a rubber-gloved hand. Then boil the pill mass twice in naptha. Four or five minutes each boil, with stirring. Naptha. If PEG is your concern, two naptha boils prior to extracting the speudo or E will get the PEG- at the lower weight PEGs. Merck suggests otherwise, but experience teaches that hot  naptha is an excellent PEG solvent.

Then base the pseudo, extract with hot naptha. You should have extracted what hot naptha will extract already. Except for the newly freebased pseudo.

Win-win deal.

Coming next: (Ware knew I would do it, didn't he?) "The Full Cure Tetra Trap...."

No write up needed.  

[SHORTY]

Then you could just follow the original tetra trap write up and then gas the xylene and pour through a filter and gas again and pour through same filter then gas once more and leave in beaker.

Then put the filter over the beaker and pour methanol or ethanol or iso alcohol over the pseudo in the filter until it all dissolves into the beaker.

From there just follow geez's pseudo precipitation writeup and you will have some very clean pseudo hcl.

When the filtered xylene cools the peg will appear along with some other gaaks i presume.

[weaz1dls]

durring the tetra wash part of the PM may float while the other falls to the bottom. don't be concerned just mix well and follow follow Geez instructions above, into coffee filter..etc.  Swiw uses tce to rinse container out then pours that over the pm/coffee filter for initial rise after the 90 second soak.

[weaz1dls]

[wareami]

Coming next: (Ware knew I would do it, didn't he?) "The Full Cure Tetra Trap...."

Ya know what Geez? No I didn't have a clue but I do consider it an honor.
I'm still stinging from the brutal beating I received from one bee in particular I respect, placebo, in regards to writing style.
It's only fitting that such a title bee placed on a new enhancement that addresses the latest gaak attacks.
I learn the most from respected peers like Osmium and placebo that show no fear toward telling it like it is and setting the record straight.

Ibee's suggestion to suss is to trade in the coffee grinder for a shiny new mortar and pestal. And with the pennies left over, you'll be able to afford a fine seive strainer.
It's more work but an increase in yield and quality will be the reward!
Finely Ground pillmass will serve you best enhancing any extraction method chosen!

[Scottydog]

Not to knock the advice given here by some of the elder bees because it is good sound advice that works.

The only problem Swim sees with doing an "e-gull" tetra wash on the GUPS prior to doing the ahgreich method is that only 3-5 boxes will fit in each coffee filter at a time.

You would have to essentially line up a bunch of jars with a filter in each.

Add 3-5 boxes in a dish pour in tetra swirl for 60-90 seconds and then pour it through the jars with filters, wring each one out individually and then scoop the pill mass back into a coffee pot, beaker (whatever one decides to use) and then FINALLY begin to proceed with the extraction.

Unnecessarily labor intensive and time consuming, not to mention the space required to do all this. Then again, waiting for what little that sticks to each filter (waiting for it to bee dried before it ALL can bee removed)

Swim is an advocate of the e-gull and has used it since wareami unleashed the beast.

But why go through all that labor, mess and time, when you can just evaporate the toluene down to a skin, allow to cool and then just pour off the gakk?    It is ALL inclusive, pros outweigh the cons.

After doing this, in all actuality, washing the freebase with water in the end is not even necessary if all gakk tainted solvent is poured/dripped (decanted) off.

Then as was just mentioned for ultimate speed and efficiency, instead of fresh toluene and water added and then titrating with muriatic to get pseudo HCl, one can just add fresh xylene and gas.

If Swim wanted to do washes, boils or pre-soaks, he would have stuck to pills containing povidone.  

[psilocin]

Does [the phrase] "with pseudoephedrine as the only active ingredient" mean that this extraction technique is not suited for chlorpheniramine removal?

[geezmeister]

CM is an antihistamine and an active ingredient that must be listed. If its not listed on the box, it isn't there. At  least in the US.

[psilocin]

it is listed.
and yes it is an antihistamine.
how could this technique  bee applied for pills with this compound?

[MarleyBob]

CM is soluble in acetone

Psilocin, have you read this?

Post 466242 (missing)

(amalgum: "Easy shards", Stimulants)

[wareami]

If you have a polkadotted cat to skin....we all know there are many ways to skin a cat.
But you've been taught the art of skinning that's reliable on cat's without polkadots.
Will the polkadotted cat still have polkadots after ya skin it the only way you know how?

Okayyyy....I'll beehave!
psil-E question....psil-E answer...
Tetra removes CM and Trip so the only active ingredient to remain will be the one your after.

[JUMPER]

[Prepuce]

Shit. SWIM has to reply to his own message. Although the results of his previously published cleanings looked outstanding and yeilded no hint of contamination, following a fb dream of 10g Efb 5g RP 15g I2 and a yeild of about 4g plus a large beaker full of bright orange colored acetone and another containing the acqueous phase badly poluted with dark brown crap, well, SWIM feels he has no choice but to compose a single, recordsetting run-on sentence to let everyone know that things aren't always as they seem (as if you didn't know), and that it might be a good idea to peform some additional procedures.

Should have known it was too good to be true.

P.S. Anyone else notice that the orange gak will eat your RP after a reaction if you don't clean it thoroughly, and right away? SWIP swears it does, having twice found his coveted powder turned grey, after he lazily left it till the next day to clean. The first time he figured it must have been played out. The second time it was fresh mbrp going in. AFter this last abortion he cleaned it before doing anything else, and although it must have required nearly a liter, it still looks good the next day. Or so SWIM told me.

Did someone say column chromatography?

PP

[spectralshift]

you probably used too much water and it followed through.

Try DCM next time, I know for a fact either DCM or napthenate salts remove pre-activated orange.
I've got strong doubts about the napthenate salts because swim didn't see how the mixing that is acheivable between the sparse salts and the gup was doing anything at all.
He believes that is the aromatic, 1,2,4-Trimethylbenzene used in US JD, and not in Terebine, an australian version using only turpentine.

There's other rationale in addition...if the solvent used is mineral turpentine in the product, and the salts are suspended within it, and unactive (preoverbasing as-is in pill form, white) orange is not soluble in mineral turpentine, then how is it that the nap salts play any role in it's removal?

I could bee wrong, it's not the nicest gak to experiment on because you've basically got to come up with a novel idea to recover if it is activated and your initial experiment was unsuccessful.
you need something to take up all the orange waters accomodation, so that the crystals are precipitated...

[wareami]

Spectical  
Ibee is planning a write-up in a separate thread on the use and efficacy of napthenic salts to preserve the integrity of this thread.
Keep yer eye's peeled

[weaz1dls]

Citric acid huh?  Sound similar to stomach acid, or HCL straight from the bottle. Results of experimentation looking better and better.  SWIW wants to work out the kinks before posting due to the fact that the procedure go's against some of the pill pull rules and doubt will run amuck.

Wareami that is why SWIW hesitated in sharing before.

If you were trying to thwart your adversary  would you use a swtcharoo knowing they steer clear of certain conditions and immeadiatly bombard the pills with solvents? If the likelyhood of a nutral to high ph was probable in illicit activity, would you not use that as a trigger?

more to come.

[spectralshift]

Wow! I cant wait to read that Ware! It's so you!
dont squirt too many people in the eyes!    

good idea, it's drifting.

[Prepuce]

Ibee, SWIP didn't mean to discombobulate or otherwise challenge the integrity of this thread. His thoughts were running on as badly as his sentences, and he was so disgusted about his recent dream that he felt compelled to cathart--fully and immediately. He tells me that he will try to keep his emotions under better control in the future.

And don't mind SWIP. He's a smartass to the bitter end and can't help it. No offense intended, Ibee. The shared results of all those long hours of research are much appreciated.

PP

[Prepuce]

Spectral,

SWIP should have been more precise in his earlier rant. When he went through the trap procedure, he was  v e r y  conservative with the H2O. He did several extractions, and never added more than about a tablespoonfull at a time. The other omitted detail is the fact that he extracted with VM&P.

The biggest mistake may have been basing with NaOH. SWIP was sorely tempted to try TSP, thinking he recalled Geez talking about it, but couldn't find the reference. Rather than take a chance he relented.

In the past SWIP has had some modest success in the past cleaning with JD and Zylene, which seemed to work better for him than tetra. The smell it left was bad, however, and he found he had to rinse and rinse and rinse with acetone to get rid of the green color. He was hoping to avoid it with this latest procedure, but it looks like he'll be going back to it for now.

PP

[wareami]

Prepuce...Ibee's remark wasn't directed at anyone per se.
Other than teasing spectral about his choice of usernames
Many twists and turns on the extraction front are a direct result of tweaking procedure and ingredients.
Rather than sidetrack or distract from algreich's tetratrap, Ibee thought it would be best to create a separate thread that deals with the benefits of JD and Tetra since it's not part of tetratrap write-up.
Ibee is still working on it.
In regards to TSP, Ibee beelieves that Scottydog first had a fin on flipping that twist on deck. My cut and paste feature has been mysteriously turned off or I'd go fetch the thread...time for a new OS install since the machine doesn't like it when RPC is disabled and DCOMbobulated...

Weaz-E: In every LikelyHOOD...like minds think alike

[spectralshift]

SWIP should have been more precise in his earlier rant. When he went through the trap procedure, he was  v e r y  conservative with the H2O. He did several extractions, and never added more than about a tablespoonfull at a time.

Prepuce no worries, it had little to do with that.
thats a bit troubling.
okay it was clearly a mistake to use NaOH, haha whoa imagine how concentrated it was, I'd bee surprised if much at all survived that.

I have one piece of info which could be relevant to this.
This orange is thought to be a type of PEG right?

A test I did quite a long time ago now with DOt3, a brake fluid, that contains ethylene glycols went like this:

This dot3 fluid normally sits underneath a water layer, just like tetra, dcm, tri or any chlorinated solvent.

So I had Dot3 on the bottom, h2o above, and a NP on top.

Upon basification, most of the ethylene glycols move up to the top NP layer...some different molecular weight glycols remain at the bottom, for possibly 48hrs.

How does this help you? dunno!    
But what im saying is PEGS don't hang around in basic solutions.
Its possibly not that they change polarity, but rather dont like basic solutions...this is why it can bee washed away with fresh water often/. (ware does this sound right or is it made up bullshit?   )


>>Other than teasing spectral about his choice of usernames

thats okay ware! I don't really like it much anyway, I'm sure that spectralmagic bee isn't too thrilled either.

[wareami]

I wouldn't tease anybee if I didn't have the attention span of a hyperactive rock in a riverbed of polished gems.
Oh yeah....and if I didn't like ya!
The troubling gaak is probably a hybrid mixture of povidone, PEG, and polysorbate if Ibee were to make an uneducated guess based on it's behavior and the effects it has on final work-up.

Ibee kicked around the DOT3 in the past and gave UP after not being able to effectively remove the oilyness it imparted to the pinwheels.
It did appear to remove PEG however.
Dwarfer and Ibee discussed this since and the ensueing dialog hinted at giving the DOT3 extraction attempt another crack at a full out Ibee Assault with the addition of an oil remover! You got it! I can hear it now..."Just what we need...more exotic chemicals to play with!"

Its possibly not that they change polarity, but rather dont like basic solutions...this is why it can bee washed away with fresh water often/. (ware does this sound right or is it made up bullshit?)

Geez would be more of an authority than Ibee on PEG and the influence basic environments have on it since his schools of thought surround A/B extraction and Ibee's surround solvent extraction.
Algreich or VE may also chime in on that note based on their expertise with a/b`ing pills.
But Ibee's thoughts would be that if PEG didn't like basic solutions, that would explain why it moves UP with the Pfed into NP, and what you are saying is a water wash of the NP before extracting the pfed from NP would rid it of PEG....Correct?
Now either Geez's trouble with PEG were as a result of staying freebase...instead of going to salt, or this waterwash wasn't employed on NP...
If so...it would make sense!
But...Ibee knows that Geez employs this wash post-rxn based on write-ups and the proposal you suggest would have spared Geez the PEG nightmares of yesteryore that plaugued SWIG's circle post-rxn,  Wouldn't ya think?
Let's see what Geez and the others say before the hyperactive rocks call Ya a bullshitter     .

[spectralshift]

 ware your hilarious. Well I'm privilaged then.

Wouldn't ya think?
Possibly..probably. But it's amazing what can be overlooked in the rush.

I should have done better tests, I didn't do water washes of the NP. I do have some more so I might give it a go later...it's probably not very interesting to us anymore, better ways, but it might bee a good wash to follow in ahgreich's trap to remove PEG carrying through to NP.
Depends on results though, get back to ya you PEt!    

[geezmeister]

Prepuce: Use sodium carbonate to base the pseudo, rather than NaOH. We noticed early on with Orange I and again with orange II that both seemed ambi-polar, but both seemed to become nonpolar soluble at pH levels above 12 to 12.5. Sodium carbonate and trisodium phosphate freebase the pseudo without apparently making the orange gakks nonpolar soluble. NaOH will base too far and the orange gakks will appear in the non-polar. Or so it seems to the cooks who toss more base in for that last pull and get a load of orange death.

The recommendation of sodium carbonate for the base in this application has avoidance of orange gakks in mind. There are other reasons, like ready availability and low cost, but you can't over base the pseudo with it and it isn't going to burn the pseudo if it bases too fast.

I did some work with some 120's and have high praise for Scottydog's comments on ridding the PEG post extraction. The water baths in a small volume of hot dH2O really were amazing. I have a beaker of nasty PEG from the extracted crystals and think the post extraction cleaning is a necessity on the 120's.

[elfspice]

well, coleman fluid, zippo, etc, i find the brand name ones are more likely to have heavy crud in them but for precipitation crystalisation that's not really a problem. the cheapest source is a solvent called 'shellite' which contains apparently mostly pentane and heptane, and the way it forms microbubbles well before it starts to really boil tells me that's about right. It seems to have similar qualities to vm&p naptha from the descriptions i have read, a solvent you don't get much out of unless it's hot. That can be advantageous if the desired freebase is the most soluble in the material of all the stuff in the mix. (this is certainly the case for dmt)

gas with toluene or xylene, it doesn't matter, so long as they're both dry. xylene can't hold as much water than toluene, which makes it a good choice. Also, xylene is often a fair amount of the content of mineral turpentine, and in my experience organic gak does indeed seem to travel with the residue from the turp, so it's usually worth doing a couple of rinses with some petroleum spirits (whatever form is handy to one)

edit: if you really can't find sodium carbonate, sodium hydroxide+sodium bicarbonate with the right ratio of weight (utfse and get their respective molar weights to determine the ratio) much faster than baking sodium bicarbonate.

[Prepuce]

Thanks for some good tips, Geez. SWIP tried H2O on his FB crystals, but didn't know at the time how soluble they might be and didn't risk boiling it. Obviously he will do so next time!

Getting to be something of a challenging hobby, eh?

Ware: SWIP looked back at your earlier post and his reply, and all he could do was scratch his head. How he understood what he replied to is beyond him at the moment. Must have been the tetra fumes!

PP

[geezmeister]

It is rather hard to take those nice shiny white crystals that are so obviously "only" fb pseudo and boil them in a few cm of distilled water. As the water boils, the pseudo crystals reform and float again at the top of the water, where they may be filtered out. The yellow, oily, turbid water immediately proves that the crystals were not as "pure" as you may have thought. 

At least as to generic 120's, I suggest doing a couple of naptha boils before the tetra trap, or bringing the extracted fb pseudo crystals to a boil in a few cm of distilled water after after extracting them, and repeating such washes until clean.

I wanted to try out Scottydog's evaporation-to-near-saturation-and-decant method of PEG removal, but the number of strangers in the neighborhood walking around in the still night air dissuaded me from doing it this time. out,
The tetra trap can be used to extract fb pseudo from generic time release 120's if one first does a series of naptha boils to remove PEG from the pill mass, or alternatively washes the fb crystals in boiing hot water a time or two.

The final product is like-you-like-it.

[spectralshift]

So is that little crit ahgreich coming back?

>>bringing the extracted fb pseudo crystals to a boil in a few cm of distilled water after after extracting them.

I remember that idea--oh yeah it was my own!    

geez SWIM had the same problem as you actually doing it, luckily Scotty is more care-free.
I still don't know about it on paper, are you sure none of the fb gets steamed off?

maybe inside a weighted tea-bag would bee safer, as it's being brought up to the boil?

Also depending on what the end concensus is about ethyl acetates safety, being used in a similar way..maybe it would bee an even cooler solvent to use in the same way. But Os and Kinetic have to talk more first.  

[wareami]

Not that methods of boiling aren't useful and effective for removing gaak and unwanted intermediates, but care really should be taken whenever pfed or meth are brought to boiling points in any solvent without the use of a device to capture the goodz.
It's always been easy for Ibee to associate yield loss with boiling and that atmospheric pfed/meth addict in the attic!

[geezmeister]

I still don't know about it on paper, are you sure none of the fb gets steamed off? maybe inside a weighted tea-bag would bee safer, as it's being brought up to the boil?

I most likely lost part of the pseudo yield to the hot water baths I gave it. There was the smell of pseudo in the room after doing it, and there certainly less of a pile of pseudo after it finally dried than there was before I water-washed it. I reduced the wash water over low heat to precipitate any remaining fb as crystals until no more formed. No additional crystals formed in the cooled solution.

My attempts to steam distill pseudo have met with limited success at best, which suggests to me that losses to boiling should not be that severe. I did have a loss in yield, though. Washing in hot water does clean the fb crystals, however, as demonstrated by the superb quality of the final product. I wonder whether steam distilling the extracted freebase crystals might be in order, rather than steam distilling from the based pill mass.

I think that I need to steam distill my next batch of fb crystals and compare losses to boiling and filtering. Might be a real answer to the yield and purity issue, particularly if it is easier to do than steam distilling from based pseudo tablets.

Have you noted a difference in yield when boiling in a tea bag?

The cleanliness of the washed pseudo is is worth some loss in yield, in my opinion.  The quality of the final product damn sure bears that judgment out. I think it may be a matter of limiting the losses in yield, rather than wholly avoiding them.

[spectralshift]

I most likely lost part of the pseudo yield to the hot water baths I gave it. There was the smell of pseudo in the room after doing it, and there certainly less of a pile of pseudo after it finally dried than there was before I water-washed it.

Dsmn. that sounds pretty conclusive.


Have you noted a difference in yield when boiling in a tea bag?

No no I'm just thinking through ways to avoid the yield loss.
I don't think it would change much, though it might.
because when you boil the crystals at the beginning from on top of the water, steaming is arising from beneath them before they are dissolved.

In a tea bag it might help matters. But you wouldn't know when they had dissolved.

Ware your probably right in your observations.  

[weaz1dls]

Place a funnel on the top of the beaker/carafe and with gloved hand move beaker in circular motion to swirl contents for stiring.  Funnel acts as a makeshift finger condenser. SWIW uses one in the micro, acts as a splashgaurd for bumping.

[geezmeister]

SWIG grabbed more 120's to test a couple  of ideas that might make the tetra trap yield PEGless pseudo. the 120's SWIG gets are loaded with PEG and Orange, so badly that he at one point quit buying them entirely.

One batch he soaked overnight in xylene, then brought that up to almost boiling, let settle and decanted the xylene, then added naptha. The naptha was heated with stirring until it first began to bubble, then removed from heat and the pill mass allowed to settle, and the naptha decanted. This step was repeated. The pill mass was then rinsed with acetone to help remove the remaining naptha, and the pill mass spread out and allowed to dry. After it was dry, it was mixed with Na2CO3 and ground in a coffee grinder and the pseudo extracted by the tetra trap method into three volumes of naptha. This naptha was allowed to cool to yield freebase crystals which were remarkably long and slender, burned with no trace on aluminum foil, and produced methamphetamine witn no trace of PEG, Orange I, or ORange II.

A second batch was processed without the naptha boils, but pseudo HCl was obtained by gassing the naptha used to extract. SWIG used 91% ISO to mobilize the NA2CO3 in the tetra trap method. He did this twice, then gassed, obtaining pitiful yields of pseudo that vaporized fairly cleanly on foil. A third pull was done of the pill mass, this time using water to mobilize the base. This pull yielded very well, making up for the low yields from the earlier pulls. Vaporizing this pseudo on foil left almost no trace unless the pseudo was overheated and burned. All pseudo HCl obtained by gassing will be recrystallized before being reacted, and SWIG will report whether he discovers any nasty surprises with this pseudo.

[spectralshift]

It's not really the quality of the pfed that makes it through to the non-polar that's in question. It's the lost yield in the event of orange being activated.

Orange gak won't follow through because it is barely if at all soluble in NP's.

 

Alright so alcohol is a no GO(!)er   , I guess it does make sense when you factor in that the NA2CO3 is hygroscopic, so even if it is saturated by gak for the process, then it will still leech it's water.

It's a pity though...nice experimenting geez!

[SHORTY]

I decided to give methanol a try and was surprised at the results.  I started with 199 white 60's w/trip.  All pills were placed in a blender along with an equal amount of sodium carbonate and a teaspoon of tri-sodium phosphate.  The tetra trap was followed using methanol instead of water.  Xylene was the np of which three pulls were done each of which were gassed seperately.

The three were then combined and more methanol was added to dissolve the pseudo and then placed on hotplate.  The xylene was then heated to 105C with occasional assistance of a blow dryer to speed up the precipitation of the pseudo.

When the temp reached 105C the beaker was taken of hotplate and the needles allowed to settle and then the xylene was carefully decanted and acetone was added, stirred and decanted 3 times then left to dry.

Final yeild of pseudo hcl was 9.95g (83.3% yeild) of pseudo which left no residue when heated gently on glass.

The whole process took less than 2 hours.

[spectralshift]

ShORTY that's brilliance! WELL DOne man!
nfi how it worked though because now looking at the merck entry for carbonate, it's 'insoluble' in alcohol, what do you reckon happened?

Awesome, awesome yield shorty, very respectable.

There's 17.7% you were robbed of Shorta, are you going to add another trick for the next experiment or leave it as it is?
   GO SHOrTy!      

[gluecifer69]

Shorty, Geez, and Spectral all contributed to my first post and Gluecifer69 learned more from that than he had in two years of following lokal "cook".

Sorry for the ass kissing, but this is a great break through in Gluey's opinion as Gluey is a fan of the tetrasnare.

[SHORTY]

I think i will try acetone next time.  I think the other 17% was still in the pill mass and i might have been able to get more of it with one more pull.  However, i didn't want to risk pulling alot of shit with it and was out of xylene anyway.  Even if i can't get more than 83% it still beats previous attempts on these pills by at least 23%.  So i am content with the results for now.

I also just noticed that the decanted xylene is full of snotty looking gaak. Alot of it too!  Don't know what it is but there is alot of it.  Must have precipitated after it cooled.  I have found that if the xylene is filtered rather than decanted, this shit will get stuck in the filter and is a bitch to remove from the pseudo.  I lost a few needles in the decanting stage but hardly enough to be concerned with.

[gluecifer69]

Gluecifer has been struggling since the beginning to make 50% returns on the tetratrap.  He usually gets between 35% and 40% on average.
    Could he be evapping too hot and quick, thus losing some pfed?  Gluey followed Ahgreich and ScottyDawg's write ups verbatim.

[geezmeister]

When I was trying to figure a way around PEG in the straight to bee extraction method, I found that mobilizing the base with anhydrous acetone, or a mix of anhydrous actone and methanol helped reduce the PEG in the pseudo extracted. Acetone and alcohol both work well with NaOH, despite protestations that water is necessary with NaOH. The same was said to be true of sodium carbonate, but in actual trials I found that alcohol, acetone, and combinations of both worked to mobilize the sodium carbonate. In the straight to bee, the pill mass was dried after basing to evaporate off these solvents after the base was mobilized.

ISO can be used, but is not as effective as methanol or acetone. I thought that the small water content of 91% ISO might make using it advantageous in the tetra trap; it would avoid using very much water in the extraction--I had hoped it would be enough to aid the basing process without being so much as to become a problem. It did not appear to work very well. Shorty's post makes me wonder if a little water and methanol might not be a better combination for this purpose than the 91% ISO. It may be that using a very moderate amount of water is helpful, and may increase yields over waterless methods, if the amount of water is limited enough to avoid problems with the pill mass. Acetone that has not been dried might serve the same purpose.

Shorty-- that is as high a yield as I can recall having or reading about for an a/b extraction! You might try doing this with methanol and a little water-- similar to what I tried with 91% ISO. If you do it with acetone, you might also do it with acetone that has not been dried to see if the yield may be a little better. I have the sense that adding a little water during the basing process will improve yields. Tetra's presence in the GUPs initially prevents the water from activating the gels and other water-activated gakks that would otherwise be yield killers. The water is advantageous to a point, but once past that point it limits yields. Perhaps methanol with a little water, or acetone and a little water, or an acetone/methanol
mixture with a little water would improve yields. Perhaps using acetone straight from the can, without drying it, might be better than dried acetone. The same might be true of the alcohol used.

I like the way you avoid filtering by decanting the nonpolar and rinsing the pseudo with acetone multiple times. You commented: "The decanted xylene is full of snotty looking gaak...  Must have precipitated after it cooled.  I have found that if the xylene is filtered rather than decanted, this shit will get stuck in the filter and is a bitch to remove from the pseudo."  My question is whether you would have this in the filter if you filtered the xylene hot, at 105C, before it cooled enough to precipitate the snotty gakk?

Spectralshift: your comment that "It's not really the quality of the pfed that makes it through to the non-polar that's in question. It's the lost yield in the event of orange being activated. Orange gak won't follow through because it is barely if at all soluble in NP's."

I disagree. Getting the pseudo without getting anything else is the whole point, and orange isn't the only enemy.

[SHORTY]

Some water.  I didn't dry it and although the can says 100%, i know that it's not.

As far as washing the xylene, no i didn't wash it because i figured if any of the methanol was present then it might contain some of the pseudo and could bee lost by washing, but i don't know for sure.

I also assumed that any gaaks which were in the xylene would stay there throughout the procedure. 

I think ill allow that xylene to evap and see what is left when its gone.  Has anybee ever done this?  Geez, have you done this yet?

[wareami]

for the interuption fellow bees....
Ibee has been saying all along to utilize the h2o present in most solvents to your advantage.
Pfed loves water.
This is why the IDEA method worked against the DryMatrix without activating the drymatrix. Buffers exist to utilize some chems to their maximum efficiency.
It didn't icorporate any homegrown driedsolvents.Everything straight out the can.
When bees can they should use the universal solvent properties of h2o.
Ibee is working on a way to use h2o to wash solvent mixtures prior to exposing the PM to the mix.
Might be promising, we'll see.
Carry on....

[geezmeister]

I also assumed that any gaaks which were in the xylene would stay there throughout the procedure.

You discuss gassing the xylene and obtaining the pseudo, then dissolving the gassed pseudo in alcohol. You may do this by adding alcohol to the xylene, or you may filter the pseudo HCl out of the xylene and then dissolve it. If the latter is correct, you would have an opportunity to wash the xylene of dirt and other gakks before precipitating the pseudo in it. That was the thrust of my question.

I also assumed that any gaaks which were in the xylene would stay there throughout the procedure.

What concerned me was the fact that other gakks will precipitate out of the xylene just as pseudo does, but at ower temperatures. When you allow the pseudo to settle to the bottom of the xylene to avoid filtering, allowing you to decant the xylene, it cools enough that the pseudo that falls out after the first batch was filtered hot also has precipitated, and by then some gakk (the stuff that makes your filters sticky?) may also have precipitated.) I may not understand your process completely, or you may get it done while the xylene is still very hot. otherwise, you might be reintroducing some inactives into your pseudo that would not be there if you went ahead and filtered while the xylene was hot-- i.e., you assumption that other gakks will remain in the xylene may not be accurate.

I have not evapped xylene down to see what gakks it contains, but if you let it sit you will discover that by the time it gets to room temp, a layer of brownish residue and powder is at the bottom. This seems to me to be cellulose and some thing else that came out in my cleaning.

Ware: I knew you were going to mention denatured for the water in it. I started my experiment with 91% ISO and had some denatured on hand. I may try using it to mobilize the base in a tetra trap. When I used the Iso, I added it to the gups, then added the naptha to extract with. I did not pour the alcohol through the naptha into the gups.

[SHORTY]

Sorry geez, when i said i allow it to settle i meant that after bringing the xylene to 105C (or a little higher) i remove from heat and wait maybe 30 seconds for any needles to settle.  I then decant the xylene and the majority of the pseudo stays on the bottom of the beaker.  As the last of the xylene leaves the beaker a few needles will come with it but not enough to bee concerned with.  The xylene is no less than 95C when decanted.  When the acetone is added it will boil for a few seconds without additional heat due to the beaker still being warm. 

The decanted xylene starts to precipitate what looks like snot or clouds of gaak about 5 minutes after being poured off.  When completely cool the cloud has filled the xylene and will eventually settle to the bottom.

I started decanting the xylene rather than filtering because no matter how hot i filtered it i would have shit in the bottom of the filter.  Sometimes it was orangish color but i am not sure what it is.

[spectralshift]

I disagree. Getting the pseudo without getting anything else is the whole point, and orange isn't the only enemy.

That's right, I'm not disputing that, what I intended the remark to mean was that an A/B won't pull much except pfed (nothing that can't bee dealt with), and so yield and thorough basification is the primary concern in this phase.

Orange is the enemy that you have said has plagued many of the cooks in your area, more than any other.

Sometimes you don't break down problems in simple terms in your mind.
As soon as I got an understanding of what orange was and how it worked, after asking specific questions, then I only had to ask of myself - how do i transfer as much of that pfed to an organic layer? How can I give it the best chance?

Your ISO experiment probably fucked up because the shells were of the rock solid variety that don't dissolve in tone, DCM, but love alcohol.  

A 10:90 or 20:80 composite of water:alcohol is good, but we think it for different reasons, in part. It's for it's miscibility that is the key to phase transfer, in the event of an orange explosion... and as Shorty has seen it can carry across rubbish.

You won't get much miscibility with a ratio in favour of water as the alcohol will bee in the water layer.

The alcohol in my mind has nothing to do with a fear of water, it has to do with a greater miscibility than water to assist in transferal.
I don't submit to the no water rule you and ware have led people to believe is necessary to avoid horrible drama's.

As I now have been informed that in fact a dilute acid boil will precipitate out cellulose hydrogels and PEG.
Nevertheless, as you know I'm still traumatised by your (the both of you), I now fear balonial speeches and anti-h2o 'gander and don't use it for certain purposes. I'm only just starting to see the truth in practice...It doesn't look good you two...

Tetra's presence in the GUPs initially prevents the water from activating the gels and other water-activated gakks that would otherwise be yield killers.

No it doesn't, the heating step kills that idea. Your pills must bee weak and contain none as a thick layer of bloby modules of hydrogel will form on heating of the water, as it's been witnessed.

You've got selective hearing/reading, because just the other day not surprisingly a bee spoke of this very problem.

You need to wash the separated, pfed laden NP's with water, to remove that 'a little bit soluble in non-polar but very soluble in water' stuff.  

You also should boil with the extraction solvent as a pre-wash, as Rag/org has said a few days ago, tricks that I already worked out.

[wareami]

Geez: Some alcohol solvents and NP solvents are more compatible with others.
Misibility plays a large role...
Ibee has been working with both 70% iso and 91% iso as well as denat and sofar the 70% is heading the pack in experiments where the polymers and other gaaks have been stabilized with the use of exotic chems.
Similar to attacks and assaults you bees are subjecting the GUPs to with the solvent soaks and boils.
The key point seems to bee that once the active polymers/gaaks have been immobilized, they don't provide as much threat in aqueous solution or basic environments.
Since the main difference between 70%-91% isopropyl alky is h2o content, Ibee can safely draw the conclusion that the water is the attractant for the pfed, provided the other gaaks are held at bay.
Sometimes the ingredients used in denatured alky do that, but in purer alky's Ibee's seeing a direct correlation to h2o content in those various srengths.
There was a time when it was thought the safest way to GO in frontside extraction was to dry all solvents.
Maybe not so anymore.
Just a suggestion but you might want to see what the 70% iso has to offer in addition to comparing them to denat, methanol, or just h2o.

[geezmeister]

shorty: I did misunderstand part of your post. You may well have success at 95C with xylene. At that temperature using naptha alone, the pseudo that precipitated after filtering the naptha was laced with gakk. At approx 90C the substance that was precipitiating was not pseudo, and looked much the same as the cellulose that precipitates in decanted acetone after a boil of the pill mass. I haven't measured the temps at which other compounds precipitate in xylene, but I assume most would precipitate at a lower temperature in xylene than in naptha.

Ware: I concur in the notes about different alcohols having different miscibilities and characteristics as a solvent. You are probably correct about the water content not being an absolute, although I remain of the opinion that some pill formulations are designed to foil an alcohol extraction of pseudo from the pill mass with OTC alcohols containing moisture. The waterless approach countered that objective, perhaps at the cost of some yield but with a savings in time-to-pseudo, which is important for a good many weekend warriors who can't spend for pills until Friday and want meth sometime over the weekend. The LWR pretty much eliminated that consideration, and since I adopted that approach, pill gathering for a cook is done at a least a week prior to the cook itself, and fast extracation is no longer an issue. It remains an issue with many cooks.

spectralshift: You tell me that an a/b will pull little but pseudo, yet in another post reminded me that the waterless a/b was ineffective against orange. The STB method and the waterless a/b both did not deal with the orange problem adequately. Both also predated it. I ventured along familiar paths in trying to solve the orange gakk problem. Your method of using larger amounts of water and giving time for gels to dissolve precludes cooking pseudo the same weekend as you acquire the pills, and many cooks are accustomed to doing this. The mental framework that accompanies the task-oriented, time conscious cook helps keep him from seeing outside the box of his routine experience. I applaud your approach, which I would not have thought to pursue because of the blinders created by my experience and approach to meth making in general. When I encountered the first orange gakk, I ventured along familiar paths searching for a workaround. Do not fault me for trying familiar approaches while trying to identify the new enemy. You commented that "As soon as I got an understanding of what orange was and how it worked," you began searching for new ways to overcome it. And how long did it take you? Congratulations. You got an understanding of what it is and how it works well before I did, and I am sorry I did not have the same perceptive ability or chemistry knowledge you have. I have to hack along on weekends, guessing at what might work and learning from failures. Its not the best approach, but it often results in solutions. 

The very-watery a/b approach is different in kind and character from the extraction processes used by most cooks I know, who have for years extracted pills as a more or less start-to-finish operation from pill acquisition to  use in a reaction. The idea of doing this and waiting, then doing that and waiting, and then later doing this-- is not an approach within the conceptual range of most cooks. There were similar debates here a couple of years ago between those who viewed long solvent soaks at room temperature as being preferable to solvent boils. Some claimed to clean the dirtiest pills with nothing more than soaks in room temperature tolulene, while others professed an inability to extract clean pseudo without boiling the pill mass in at least some of several solvents.

The very watery a/b, with or without a boil after being dropped to pH2, employs a different approach to extracting pseudo. The difference lies as much in the time frame allotted for the process as in the process itself. If your modus operandi allowed you to purchase pills on Friday afternoon but dictated that you react the pseudo starting no later than one or two o'clock the following morning, your method would be "outside the box" most cooks found themselves thinking in. It would not occur to them to enlist time as an ally, as their concept of extracting pseudo views it as an active process, not a passive one.  Given your time allowance and approach, the recommendations I have routinely made against using water in pill extraction were inaccurate. When I started making those recommendations, they were appropriate to extractions from pills which had new-at-that-time water-activated gakks. Thoise recommendations remained for the most part valid guides until new gakks, some perhaps selected to foil waterless approaches, were introduced in the pills. 

The 120's I extracted from, by the way, were Perrigo generics, not the "hard shells" you described. I had good yields, and the pseudo I obtained was PEG and Orange free. Yes, I have pills that have problems with hydrogels. I used pills that a standard water-based extraction would have failed on. I am familiar with the nature and purposes of washing the pseudo laden nonpolar solvent and quite familiar with the point of boiling with the solvent you choose to extract prior to extracting. I fail to see the point you are evidently trying to make.  (I can't tell whether you are wanting to issue some challenge to me, or if you just have trouble expressing yourself without sounding insulting. I've declined what I considered as such challenges before, and don't have any particular reason to spend my time sparring with you over the internet when I have many other things which are more interesting, and a good deal more challenging, to do.)   


There appears to be more than one way to skin this cat. The tequila fanciers among us seized on Scottdog's recognition of a phase shift point in the a/b process where the pseudo and the orange could be separated, as you did with the water boils of the freebase crystals. The latter approach needs to have its weaknesses in pseudo loss addressed, and with that still offers a good route to the clean pseudo goal for those whose circumstance or lack of planning leave them short of the time your method needs to prepare for a cook. 

You do not subscribe to the waterless approach as you have found an approach that solves the water activated gels another way. Fantastic. Glad the masses can be freed from the hypocrisy and idiotic presumptions that got us through the period between the time that then-current concepts of water-based extraction failed and waterless methods provided clean pseudo. At least it worked. And frankly, with modifications, for those who lack the time to wait, it still does. It is a different approach conceptually, but it really is nothing more than another approach to extracting pseudo mixed with water-activated gels.

I've never been set in stone in anything I have done, and I have have never been impervious to change. I have done what I can with most new extraction techniques to test them and find their weaknesses and help find workarounds for those weaknesses. 

You made the comment: "I'm still traumatised by your (the both of you), I now fear balonial speeches and anti-h2o 'gander and don't use it for certain purposes. I'm only just starting to see the truth in practice...It doesn't look good you two..." If anything I did here traumatized you, my good fellow, you best not visit the American southwest. You won't make it long here if something I did traumatized you. As to what doesn't look for the two of us, I assume you mean Ware and I. If you think I have my self esteem tied up in this nym or this board, you are sadly mistaken, and if you assume that Ware or I either one have some sacred ground to defend, you are evidently delusional. Stop looking for conspiracies and accept that a lot of cats get skinned for no good reason, and that those who keep up with pseudo extraction know we are always learning and changing our methods to adapt.

If you ever have a chance to figure out why Zyrtec D shells confound the very watery a/b approach and refuse to settle out, be filtered, or quit jacking with the extraction, pass it on. Their white coating does some nasty things in water, acting a lot like glue. I still get some of these pills from time to time and want to see how your method works with them. My last effort was pretty much a wash-- the pseudo I obtained was clean enough, but I obtained very low overall yields. I have a few thoughts on how to proceed, but think I will leave solving this problem to you, and stick to things I know something about.

[spectralshift]

You tell me that an a/b will pull little but pseudo, yet in another post reminded me that the waterless a/b was ineffective against orange.

no I didn't say anything of the sort.

Geez stop this, your B.P. has got to bee getting out of hand, Ill respond to the rest after.  

P.S.
Your method of using larger amounts of water and giving time for gels to dissolve precludes cooking pseudo the same weekend as you acquire the pills, and many cooks are accustomed to doing this

This is entirely made-up rubbish aswell, I do not advocate a lot of water to remve orange. I dont know where you pulled this from.


You commented that "As soon as I got an understanding of what orange was and how it worked," you began searching for new ways to overcome it. And how long did it take you? Congratulations. You got an understanding of what it is and how it works well before I did, and I am sorry I did not have the same perceptive ability or chemistry knowledge you have. I have to hack along on weekends, guessing at what might work and learning from failures. Its not the best approach, but it often results in solutions.


This isn't true, I didn't even study chemistry at high school level, and I hack things from bits of knowledge. I might have been reading a lot about chemistry in the first 1-2 monthes at the Hive, but then turned back to the ghets and forgot 80% of it!  


more comments to come, some positive im sure.  

[dwarfer]

Username:  spectralshift
Title:  Hive Bee
Subject:  Misinterpritation
As I now have been informed that in fact a dilute acid boil will precipitate out cellulose hydrogels and PEG.

Has it been your experience that this in fact works??
Pardon my skepticism. 

Please describe how this is accomplished.
================

[spectralshift]

It's pretty simple really. Boil pills in a healthy-sized bath of plain water, (you'll get great dissolution, unlike with NP's and dry solvents that have been essential)
Remove any precipitation from boiling, hot, and cold, as it will always have pfed dissolved.

Then do the same but with either a splash of vinegar or several drops of hcl, but bee careful. experience is light on, but for very respectable bees have told me about it.
 
But the following is right there in black and white in the merck index, which you have both, I fear had for a long time.

1. Hydroxypropyl Cellulose - precipitates@45-50C Plain water (no acid)

2. Microcrystalline Cellulose - insoluble in dilute acids.

3. Hydroxypropyl Methyl cellulose - insoluble in plain hot water

4. Methylcellulose - insoluble in hot water [dispersed and stabilised by hot water with stirring]

I think the floating clear solutions are PEG. Relatively certain.
They are gak and are easily drawn up with an eye dropper.


Another thing, ware about DOT3, I think your the bullshitter and merely trying to back your old friend up because, geez doesn't wash his NP's with water in any of the procedures I can see.

I doubt then that they "change polarity" either.

I did those extra tests too, on DOT3, the ethylene glycols fall right back out with fresh water.

But glycol ether also works.
=================

[wareami]

I am quite the bullartist at times

http://dreamers.gr/pics/newpics/moo.jpg

See...I'm beeing serious here! I didn't post the pic?
_{I can hear it now..."OHH NOO..The Martians Got Ware again!"}
But I'm like old George Washington when it comes to extraction, I cannot tell a lie!
All the smokescreens and mirrors in the world aren't going to cover UP the fact that your proposal is lacking one important element here...
Do you remember 1-2months ago I asked that you slap together a write-up compiling an effective work around for the problems at hand as they deal with OrangeII gaak and other hydrogels/polymers?
Well I'm still waiting.
Bits and peaces are all well and good and maybe it's beyond your scope in practice to put your money ware your mouth is.
I'm not bustin on ya....but I keep reading suggestions from your corner without any hard demonstrations that will provide bees with some relief via a write-up.
It's not easy doing all the research AND the hands on experimentation that verifies that indeed you have a solution.
I can Theorize and hypothesize my ass off with the best of them, but when it comes down to applicability and practicality, yer shyte better fly because bees are investing money, time, and energy in making what was proposed work.
Geez is 110% correct regarding the sentiments and philosophies he expressed on OUR behalf.

Now onto the brakedown you graciously provided us with.(And yes...Ibee has the merck 13th ed and the crc handbook of chemistry and physics)
You are breaking down each component that comprises a matrix and finding solubility and addressing each separately.
While that looks good on paper, those individual chems were selected to bee married for several reasons. More are beeing added all the time.
The main reason was to thwart the logical/likely approaches you've outlined.
I know Geez and he and Ibee have beat this shit every which way feeasibly possible for clandestine chemhacks and hit more brickwalls than workable solutions.
The speed at which bees get handed successful workaraounds might indicate this shyte is a piece of cake to combat...but those come from the collective efforts that don't detail the individual frustrations each faces. That's not counting the money lost either.
With that said....it should be easy to see by the track record here at the hive that an atmosphere that breeds the most success is not one of challenging one another but made of collaboration and collective teamwork.
So please put together a write-up after putting into practice a workable solution that incorporates your findings if you care to contribute your time and labor to the ongoing collective efforts.
As I said, I'm not bustin on ya...
But this is keepin Ibee from typin UP his latest findings that might be the "Happy GO Lucky" discovery he's been painstakingly slaving over for months that might fend off the nightmares on the pillfront temporarily!

Hey....one more thing here that's gone left unsaid til now.
All you bees might be wondering why more support is't offered by some of the mre educated and schooled elder bees on these subjects.
Well I can't speak for them but when you think about it, it's not because they look down on us, or they are unwilling to assist, they do in many ways. It's more along the lines that the solutions we seek must come from OTC sources, mostly extracting those from OTC chems.
It doesn't help our plight one bit in many cases for someone to chime in with solutions that involve chemicals that are not readily available.
That's the way I see it...
And those are the definitions of workable solutions to me.
Something that helps the masses, not just a select few fortunate enough to have access to premium grade solvents and chems along with pristeen lab working conditions!
That's not meant to offend, that's just the way I see it.
IMHO

[dwarfer]

Really, start another thread if you have it all down.

like Geeze, i find some semi-snide derrogation in your
verbiage, but find it unnecessary to defend prior
assertions to the death, as the target is moving
continuously anyway.

The Dot 3 proposal discussed by Ware and I some months ago
was within the context of turps, oils,  and other substances, as dissolvers of the heavier end PEGS assumed
to be part of the necromancers additive packages.

Many of us are unconstrained by bookish knowledge that if known,
would keep us from trying new things.  Thus, much would be
undiscovered, because certainly much if not most of the
"technology" of this forum arrises from unconstrained "what if"
trials that have yielded good results.


Your disdainful remarks about the MERCK
being available to
us, and therefore constituting an adequate base for us  to
have punctured our own balloons 
before floating them here,
assumes that in fact they are unmodified invariates
of the MERCK information, which, 
in point of my own considered opinion
after considerable investigation, they are not.
(or to be more accurate, those which I was dicking with
were other than those you "fearfully" refer to)

you may (if it is of interest to you)
take a look at the meanderings from early last year
that I posted about the polyampholyte hypothesis,
with refs to other sites. 

in way of approach with new information
which you may in fact have, it would be edifying
for you to note the transit of FormerChemist
thru these hallowed halls about 8 months ago. 
Being more knowledgeable, but not pretentious,
he imparted valuable information that helped many.

i don't visit this area as much as before:
I'm pretty much unable to make any significant
contributions to this technology at this time.

Ahgreich has a good thing going here.

Maybe you have a better thing.

why don't you start a thread?

But knock off the deprecation, as it says more about you
than the people you attack.

on the other hand, do what you want.

[dwarfer]

We apparently were both moved to lovingly response by
SpectralShift's kindest put-downs.

But just to make sure, that IS what my ^^post was directed
to.

hi ware.

==========You know, I always wonder what
makes people do what they do.

Here's spectralshift making a contribution.

Post 478211

(spectralshift: "SWIP should have been more precise in his...", Stimulants)

then??  went straight downhill here: .. Check out his
user profile, look at his downrated posts.

two things:
1.. Congrats to the Hive's discipline system, it's working.
2.  About SS?  He's just Joe's dumb, younger brother..  ":<)
===========

to avoid being off topic, let me add that Ware's comments
about the interlocking nature of the amendments co-operation is on the money,
and that despite SS's comment about ??not changing polarity??
they will change their operation depending on the pH of the
solutions, and if that is the "polarity" to which he refers,
he is just wrong it saying that it does not change.

[spectralshift]

Do you remember 1-2months ago I asked that you slap together a write-up compiling an effective work around for the problems at hand as they deal with OrangeII gaak and other hydrogels/polymers

You can't bee serious ware, that's a straight out lie. Your a cute colourful screen-pet in my computer that fascinates the imaginatory arm of the mind.

I'm a critical straight shooter. It's not my problem you don't accept the truth.

Recommendations I've made are simply these, I chose them to work in with ahgreich's own write-up.

1. To use two Non-polar's.
2. To use alcohol.
3. To wash the non-polars with water.
4. To give time/control heat with some thought.
5. Give thought to supplying the system with water.
6. pre-wash with extraction solvents.

All really basic stuff mate, and very adaptable.


While that looks good on paper, those individual chems were selected to bee married for several reasons.

Where? In your head? They are compressed to form a pill matrix, this isn't anything special.

Ever tried grinding a GOOD set of pills up with a base, and doing a Trtra Trap without the tetra? I guess the stuff that made it through wasn't "married". heh


Your all speaking nonsense, lying, kicking and screaming, because I've shown you up. It didn't have to bee this way, you rude little critters.

You needlessly detered bees from water for a long time didn't you?

Your way was essential wasn't it? Guilty! Here Here!  


You seem to think I'm unerved or unstable in some way old men, but I'm over that.

dwarfer thanks for bringing up my marked down posts, as irrelevant as that is, it shows my honesty and want to give the people the true picture of who I am, and not hide behind other usernames.

[wareami]

In this thread, I'm finding the need to insert some sort of order in trying to protect the integrity of alhgreich's contribution....
Ohhhh Hi Dwarfer!

Spectralshift....please see the new post in the stim forum by The imaginary pet and we'll start disecting an exact procedure that may be of use. If you're UP to the fulfilling the 2 month old request...

[dwarfer]

dwarfer thanks for bringing up my marked down posts, (1)as irrelevant as that is, it (2)shows my honesty and want to give the people the true picture of who I am, and not hide behind other usernames.

Numbers and accents added by me.

(1)Wrong: absolutely provides a matrix within which an accurate projection of your competance, and more importantly your attitude, can be measured.

(2) Incorrect.  Honesty does not derive from another's
"outing" of the information relevent to determining
the nature of your demeanor.

i "fear" i overestimated you: condition rectified..

PS: thanks for the private hate mail.  I'm sure Geeze, Ware, and I will wait with 'bated breath for our ??reputations?? to be overturned by your incisive critiques.
===============

By the way, your choosing to bring totally separate elements into a thread whose focus is the elaboration on
a theme, is not good protocol, in my opinion.

if your methodology deserves a shake, put it up where it can be commented on separately. Unless you are chicken..

regards,
d

PSS: Sory Ware, i just hadda steal your gif..

[spectralshift]

[WmPerry]

My gratitude for method.To all involved. Heres what i did., and the thing worked so pretty:
   Mix dry Gups (48 60's w/trip)1 to 1 with dry Lye. Cover with Acetone.stir well, till soaked through- put inch of tolly on top. Added water, amount maybe half of the toluene, stir, stir stir,  shit turns strange yellowy/orange color (ornge gakk color?)
suck up tol, and dry to beautifull fluffy pseud. best ive ever managed to get
thanks again

[SHORTY]

If i were you i would at least wash those crystals with dh20 and see how much of what you have dissolves.  Im not an expert on the additives like Geez and Ware but i seriously doubt your pseudo is as clean as you may think it is. 

Next time try sodium carbonate instead of lye and you won't get the orange shit.

[suss]

Hello all,

Why do people suggest to boil the dichloromethane out of brake cleaner before using it in the tetra trap, when it has very good solvent properties that may help in the extraction?

Cheers.

[livid]

swim does his own thing. it is a combination of things on rhodiums site. I have never posted it because it's nothing special. some bees prefer one solvent to another. ect. ect. The biggest improvement swim has noticed lately, is the brake cleaner thing. You bees that do that know what i'm talking about

[spectralshift]

Trap works fab! Even w/out following instrcts!

Now you see the evidence of truth.  
Fuk with it a bit too dude, well done for trying this out. Dry basing will aways get some phase transfer.

If you look up to my (halfkast's) first comments in this thread you'll see that swihk stated that he had done this without tetra a long time ago.

A pre-wash or boil with tetra and then dry-basing will do better than the tetra trap itself haha. Isn't it obvious?  

The damage is already done. More like the progression is finally upon us...

[Prepuce]

Shorty,

Thanks for your work on this. (And thanks to Geez for refering SWIP to the post.) SWIP had used the tetra trap to produce what he originally thought was very clean fb crystals, and only discovered his error after a really shitty yeild on a RPI rxn.

After another workup using tetra trap SWIP followed up with H2O wash of the crystals, and found the water thick with some sort of polymer-like substance that appeared suspended but never settled out. That peice of advice, plus using sodium carbonate instead of drain clearner made a huge difference.

PP

[geezmeister]

I second Prepuce's observations, based on experiences with Perrigo 120's in particular.

[Prepuce]

Geez: "I second Prepuce's observations, based on experiences with Perrigo 120's in particular."

Damn! It didn't last long. Listen to this. SWIP processed a batch of 120's and 60's in the approx. ratio of 2/3 - 1/3. He then did the boililng water, scoop out the melted crystal thing, and the result looked quite nice. He then did a burn test and the results weren't so good. Back to the drawing board, he noticed that when he boiled the fb crystals that some particularly foamy material tended to float to the top, but it looked different than the melted crystals. He decided to filter rather than skim.

It was a little more difficult to do because he needed to get all the crystals to disolve before filtering, and then he had to work quickly. As it happened, he added more water to facilitate and ultimately added too much. "Insoluble" is a reletive term, he discovered after loosing a bit more than half of his 20+ grams. He still recoevered almost 9g and eventually hopes to get most of the rest via slow evaporation. The 9g he had in hand looked good. In a burn test they went up far more quickly than he had previously observed, and only the faintest indication remained on the foil. May have been a slight discoloration from the heat. Next he checked the MP, becuase he didn't want to risk another failed rxn. Using a previously saved reference, he watched for the temp to reach ~123 C, and was almost caught off guard when the sample melted at what he judged was about 118 C. Wondering what might cause the MP to go down, he went back to his archives, and found that according to another source the MP should be almost precisel 118 C. SWIP was startign to feel pretty good about this.

He decided to take another stab at a FB reaction, since his feedstock was so clean. He had gone to similar pains with the MBRP and I2. His mix was roughly 8g fb, 12g I2, 4g mbrp and 8 ml H2O. The rxn went just like VE described, and when he set the temp up for phase II he was comfortable that at last he'd end up with a decent yeild.

Right to the end, everything went just as it should. The post rxn mixture was by far the cleanest he ever saw. Finally it was time to base so he could extract with VM&P, but he wasn't going to make the mistake of using NaOH again, or taking the PH too high, so he used TSP. One teaspoon, and almost no effect. In went the second teaspoonful along with a bit of heat to start moving the oil up into the non-polar. Maybe a little stirring. . . But what's this. The glob of gell that now filled the beaker was quite difficult to stir. And the PH wasn't even 10. What the hell could it be?

Before going any further he decided to pull what he had. He filtered the glop but still ended up with enough of it to clog the funnel. A little forced air cleared that, and he poured the remaining naptha into a beaker to gas. Disaster. Not even a gram of yellowish product. Three cold acetone washes and thorough drying later it looked better, but when sampled, according to SWIP, it reeked of naptha.

What went wrong? Damn if SWIP knows. He can't discard the possiblity of the bonehead effect, but he had been unusually careful and doesn't think he mixed up something he hadn't intended. However he's thinking--hoping, actually--that that's the only likely explanation. Comments?

PP

[gluecifer69]

And the PH wasn't even 10. What the hell could it be?

Should not the pH be at least 13.5, for meth to move to the non-polar?   Pseudo moves across at 12, I believe.

Relax, and try pH'ing up to 13.5 and see what happens, this could very well be the reason for no yeild while gassing.

However, there is believed to be a new gakk on the block, if not then coming soon.

[weaz1dls]

It's been swiw experience that unless the fb is rid of all the that xtra base (Naoh,etc) more HI is required to counter it. It may not seem to be much, but weigh it in relation to the amount of base needed at the post workup to reach 7.0.  If HCL was the solvent of past reactions under 100 deg.  and we know it is present in the hcl salt form of the rxn, then don't give up till ya smack that bitch up er down so to speak. Muratic fumes, as does HI in high conc.

Also you may have tripped onto something here!
don't some pills use a phosphate in the mix. Then it is in a reaction the produces more of it.  But along the way it is safe to say it was removed.  Then upon addition at the end..boom GEL, or an environment where water can be held like a sponge, similar to caffine.  Caffine mixed with water will disolve at first.  Let it sit or draw into a syringe and it will go oatmeal on ya.  But guess what, slightly acidic environments increase it's soulubility or decrease its ability to hold water.  It also slowly destroys the caffine. Anyway try going the hcl salt on the front side. After the addition of hot water at the end of reaction, plug the mouth of the flask with a coffee filter so as to restrict but not block flow.  Put in the micro and zap, swirl zap swirl.  Not to much though.  You will know when it's enough by the change in color, increase bumping, and evolution of white whispies in spight of the aditional water present.  Go to far and kill those yeilds!
Then filter, carefull that phos continues to radiate heat and is much higher in temp than the fluid. If possible tap with tce just a squirt and some jap...this is not always needed.  Test a small amount as is by mixing with base. Does it milk or flock? Flock= TCE Jap, then np rinse.  Also in this neck of the reaction Kosher salt and micrwaves are you friends.

[geezmeister]

Prepuce: if you had the pseudo that clean, go ahead and base the fluid enough to freebase the meth. You stopped too soon.  TSP is messy as hell, IMO, and to get the solution to a high enough pH to freebase the meth HI you have to saturate the solution with TSP. It will do the job if you stay after it, but you will have undissolved TSP in the reaction fluid when you get to the desired 12.8 pH. TSP is messy, and the glob you describe could be the TSP and water in the fluid.

IMHO you didn't get any meth because you never got the meth freebased so it could be extracted with a nonpolar solvent.  Even with a load of orange gakk, you would have gotten some yield if you based with NaOH. You do not need to over do it, but you have to at least do it to get meth. Add enough NaOH to reach pH 12.8 or 13 and quit basing. But get the solution at least that high.

[geezmeister]

he following information details my "tweaks" of the tetra trap method as used to extract pseudo from the generic 120 mg time release pills. These pills are heavily orange II gakked, and have a lot of polyethylene glycol. They are not that easy to extract cleanly, and have long been one of the more problematic pills. They are also, for that very reason, more available OTC than white 60's of any type in my area. My habitual use of these pills derives from their availability rather than any other factor.

II ran the tetra trap on seven twenty count boxes of 120's recently. I used xylene as the np, rather than my standard VM&P naptha.  I ground the pills very finely, and placed them in a liter beaker. I mixed dried acetone and Japan Drier at ten parts acetone to one part JD, and boiled the 120's pill mass in this for five minutes, then allowed the pill mass to sit and soak in the solvent until it settled and cooled. The liquid was decanted and the pill mass boiled twice in VM&P naptha. The pill mass was then boiled one time in xylene, also used to extract the pseudo.  A final acetone rinse followed the xylene boil and the pill mass dried, mixed with sodium carbonate, and the two were thoroughly ground together.

The pillmass was then saturated with TCE, and the pseudo extracted three times with xylene by the tetra trap method.  I combined the three volumes of xylene, and washed the combined xylene pulls three times with a 10% NaOH solution. I followed with three washes with distilled water. On each of the first two water washes, and emulsion appeared at the polar/nonpolar interface. This emulsion was gray in color and the bubbles making it up were very small.  The third water wash produced no emulsion. The xylene was dried with epsom salts and gassed for the pseudo. Yield was about 55% of the available pseudo, which is par for yield from the 120's IMHO. The pseudo so obtained was dissolved in MeOH,  MeOH was used to rinse the pseudo remaining in filters, and the pseudo laden MeOH was  filtered into a 50-50 mix of naptha and xylene approximately five times its  own volume, which was then heated to evaporate the alcohol and precipitate the pseudo HCl. The Pseudo HCl was filtered out when the naptha/xylene reached 105C, and rinsed with MEK.

The pseudo so obtained was reacted in a hypo synth. The meth obtained after a standard workup was acetone flashed and rinsed. It burned with some residue; a a single recrystallization yielded clean-burning meth with no taste.  The very tail end of the acetone rinse/motherliquor from this recrystallization was reduced over low heat, and when very nearly completely evaporated had the slight orangish tint seen when OII is present, but had a different smell. Crystals of meth formed  even in the final bit of rinse acetone/motherliquor. These were not souble in MEK or dry acetone, and I was able to wash them fairly clean and leave the remaining small bit of residue behind. All of the meth recrystallized readily.

I think this process sucessfully removed the OII gakk. Had the solution been laced with OII, the meth crystals that formed in the final remnants of the acetone rinses and mother liquor of recrystallization would have dissolved with the OII into the acetone, if they had formed at all.  These did not. The smell was different, not as noxious, I saw no problems with crystallization and lost little yield in recrystallizing.

I did not have a good yield from the reaction. Whether this was the result of misjudging the completion of a hypo cook (which is likely) or the presence of some gakk (which I think is the less likely  answer) I will not be able to say without repeating the process.  My impression is that the process worked to remove the OII from pseudo obtained from dry matrix formulation pills heavily gakked with OII  and  PEG. . The effect of the Japan drier is not easy to assess. I used very little of it mixed in acetone and got a green coloration in the pill mass that washed out with subsequent solvent boils and rinses. My final product seemed OII free, or free enough of it that OII did not appear to be a problem.  I will run the process again without the JD to assess the efficacy of the other steps against the orange gakks in themselves. I note the emulsion that fell out of the nonpolar during the basic rinses remains an emulsion nearly forty eight hours after being separated out.

[auntyjack]

swij noted a while back in this post someone asked if it is necessary to boil the dcm out of you tetra brake cleaner before you use it and months later my brain has vomited up a response..now for washes of the pill mass, leaving the dcm in the tetra is probably a good thing considering dcm is another gnarly solvent but it occured to swij a minute ago that if you run the tetra trap with your tetra being only 30% and the dcm 70%, the bottom layer will reduce in volume quite dramatically as the dcm boils off(don't they form an azeotrope?)...anyway, this would seem to be detrimental to the whole bottom layer holding the pill mass principle...but swij is not sure exactly so.... have fun...swij is drunk!!

[Prepuce]

Geez, it seems as though SWIP is forever thanking you for your advice, and it's his pleasure to do so once again. Thanks also to Glu and Weez.

SWIP is guilty of leaving a bit too much between the lines as he rushed to complete this last post. SWIP knew that he hadn't made the solution basic enough, but figured that some product would probably come through regardless. In fact it did, just not as much as he had hoped.

Also he did try additional basing. (He didn't mention it previously because he was so disgusted about the reaction going bad in spite of his efforts.) He took a small sample of the post rxn mix, of which the gell had mostly settled to the bottom of the beaker following the addition of enough H2O to triple the volume. He placed the sample in a test tube and added NaOH to see if it would get worse. (How much worse could it get, he reasoned.) The NaOH didn't cause any problem so he based the rest of the batch to PH13, and with a lot of messing around he coaxed out another couple of grams of product, this time with toluene to be sure he didn't leave anything behind. He also aaved the acetone wash of the first pull, and expects that this will yeild more polluted product with the application of sufficient effort and time.

Following the last gassing operation, this being the fist time SWIP had gassed anything out of toluene, SWIP was surprised that the product didn't fall to the bottom as quickly as it does when gassing from naptha, so he left the cloudy suspension to sit overnight.The next day the problem with the rxn came into sharper focus when he again checked to see if the product had settled out. It had, but now the toluene looked more like a beaker of weak orange Kool Aid.

SWIP racked his brain to figure what had gone wrong, after he had taken such pains to ensure the cleanliness of his starting materials. He can't be sure, of course, but he thinks he has a likely suspect. The I2 he used in this rxn had been harvested from the acqueous layer of previous rxns. Although it was as clean as any I2 he had ever extracted from tincture, and that means it appeared completely clean, SWIP would have gone through the messy process of sublimation if it had occurred to him that he might be spiking this batch with OII or equivalent.

If that doesn't make sense, then the only other explanation he can think of is that he must have inadvertently combined some feedstock that hadn't completed the process he outlined earlier. (SWIP has a bad habit of experimenting as he goes when things aren't working out, and often a single beaker divides into four, eight or more, and this occaission was no different. He's not always as conscientious as he should be about keeping everything labeled.

Geez, SWIP wants to encourage you to try the H2O boil and filter process he described for cleaning FB post tetra trap. Reading the procedure you desribe makes him think that this just has to be easier, even though you've got to be careful not to add too much H2O. (If you do you can always wait a week or more while it evaps.)

At one point during the preparation of this last batch, SWIP made about 3g of hcl because he wanted to try something SWIG had suggested--he doesn't recall how long ago. It was disolving the pfed in alcohol, mixing with Xylene and nuking until that alcohol was gone. He dreamt he did this after performing the tetra trap but without the follow-on H2O boil. Well, he nearly did this, but chickened out on the microwaving. As he was waiting for the solution to begin boiling, and all he could think about was what it might be like if the alcohol vapors were ignited by a spark in the oven, blowing it and SWIP into little bite-size morsels, perhaps. So he took it out, connected a condensor and boiled it off with good ol' heat, then filtered, let cool, and filtered again.

The FB product he tested after the H2O boils burned almost perfectly pure, with only the smallest hint of residue, and melted at as close to the correct temperature as it was possible for SWIP to determine. The hcl that had been treated as described melted at least twenty degrees too soon, (although SWIP blamed his technique for that at the time.) The burn test left the inside of a test tube coated with a dark brown residue that could not be fully removed when it was cleaned. He guesses it was burned PEG, which would have no doubt been removed had he been following the rest of the procedure SWIG outlined.

At any rate SWIP would like to hear of others experiences with boiling the FB because he believes that this yeilds the cleanest product he's ever seen. Obviously there is some question on whether OII is fully removed, and it would be interesting to hear what others say of that as well.  (SWIP should point out that the only thing original in this, if it can be called original at all, is the fact that he filters the FB after boiling.)

PP

[ahgreich]

now that some time has passed, and significant experimentation done by others - do you find overall that this method is valid and/or superior to other methods, or are there sufficient limitations to downgrade its universality?

[SHORTY]

As one of the first beez to try this method when you posted it over a year ago (without the fancy writeup).  I must say that i still use it, to this day, with a little tweaking to fit my situation such as gassing and precipitating in xylene etc.  However, the basic procedure remains pretty much the same ie; sodium carbonate is used to base, pillmass is saturated with tetra, and water is added in small amounts.

I can say that i now have a consistent procedure for extracting from the pills which are available and affordable to me.  I have managed to set up a nice agreement with a local pharmacy in which i purchase a bottle of 1000 white 60's once a week.  This is divided into 3 equal portions which i extract seperately throughout the week.  1 portion can be extracted in about 3 hours from start to finish and yeilds between 13 to 18g of clean pseudo.

My only concern is that the formulation will change on these pills and i will have to start all over again.  Until then i am quite happy and glad that that i gave this method a try back when many beez did not take this method seriously. 

Thanks again Algreich!!!!!!!!!!!

[geezmeister]

I've used it a number of times lately. My yields have been equivalent to yields from the straight to Bee, and a little better than yields with a "waterless a/b." I've done it enough times to get a decent feel for it. The method moves quickly, gives a little margin of error, and seems to hold some gakk problems at arm's length. 

I do not consider it effective by itself. The method does not eliminate OII without more, and depending on how the pseudo is harvested, you can find yourself PEGged as well. A few precautions before the a/b and/or a few polishes after it will give clean pseudo or pseudo HCl. I described a number of those a few posts earlier in this thread.
The choice of which to use depends on the inerts in the pills you wish to extract from, just as it does with the  STB and "waterless" a/b's.

I've been using it to extract pseudo from OTC pills. That  suggests my opinion of the method's usefulness.

[Prepuce]

For all his whining, SWIP is quick to ackowledge that the tetra trap is far and away the quickest and most efficient gak cleaning method he has used. If not for SWIA and a handful of others, the rest of us would be having mostly bad dreams these days, so many thanks for all the time and effort. SWIP wishes he had come across the TT method a year ago like Shorty did!

SWIP is about to give it another try, this time being very careful not to introduce contamination from outside sources. The pills he has been using are easily the most gak laden he has ever seen, but like Geez mentioned, it's even sometimes difficult to find these. With ever increasing frequency SWIP has been finding the store shelves layed nearly barren. He finds that surprising, because it appears that it's harder than ever for a bee to pull off a successful reaction. Especially for a newbee. So many ways to go wrong.

But unless alergies have begun running rampant the empty store shelved could only be due to the pollen gathering of bees. SWIP wonders how much longer it can last.

PP

[SHORTY]

Almost a year ago 02-26-03

Post 411902 (missing)

(ahgreich: "Please critique: simple flexible STB", Stimulants)

[phillyphil79]

This is one of the best write-ups a newbee could have ever seen....hopefully through my searching I will find more like this.......thanks

[Prepuce]

Geez,

SWIP was so busy prattling on about what he thought might make the tetra trap more effective (boiling in H2O, filtering), that he at first didn't stop to consider what you had offered here. After satisfying himself that the boil/filter combo wasn't going to take care of the problem he came back to read again, and this time read better. He followed the steps you laid out with painstaking attention to detail, and the result was just as you suggested. Very clean pfed-hcl.

The only trouble now was that he really wanted to do a FB reaction since he has yet to be able to avail himself of rp alternatives. On that note he foolishly decided to turn his hcl back into FB, and the yeild was even worse than he expected. This started him thinking about several packages of highly gakked generic red hots he just happened to be hoarding in reserve. Ignoring your caution that the procedure you have was for 120's, he started back at it, and before long he had some nice FB crystals. (Of course this time he deviated from the procedure and performed the tetra trap with VM&P instead of xylene.)

Testing the FB with the burn test he was at first pleased. The sample melted quickly and uniformly into clear liquid, and upon further application of heat from the match, it all vaporized and left nothing at all on the foil. SWIP noticed, though, that the sample seemed to give off a burst of vapor very quickly, but then it took a little more heat to get the rest. Hard to say for sure when melting powder on foil with a match. But also, the first vapor was clearly FB but the smell of the last was different. He tried it again, watching more closely, and sure enough, right after the powder melted a puff of pfed smoke was produced, but the clear liquid remaining required additional heat before it vaporized, and did not smell as it should.

Thinking this over a bit later, SWIP thought that the delayed melting point of the unknown gak might be an advantage. He set up a coffee pot with an inverted cup that he used to sublime I2, and placed about a gram of FB. He then filled the inverted cup with ice and applied heat to the pot. As he watched the FB melted, vaporized, then crystalized on the sides of the pot and into the cup. Eventually there was a quantity of liquid that would not vaporize at this temperature, which was about the same as used for the tetra trap. SWIP didn't measure but he thinks it's right about ~100 C. He was careful because he didn't want to burn anything, or to contaminate the end product by getting the gak hot enough to vaporize. In the end he was left with some very fluffy crystals that actually resembled those you get from sublimation of I2, in form, that is. Remaining in the pot the liquid had now taken on a familiar brown color. SWIM isn't sure what it is, so for lack of an alternative he will refer to it using the scientific term, "brown shit."

Following this procedure it was clearly evident that the FB was completely clean. A small sample went up in smoke almost immediately when heat was applied, and left no trace behind. Overall SWIP has been quite pleased with this method, one drawback being the fact that the method is rather messy. (If anyone has a better method for sublimation, SWIM would love to hear about it!) The other difficulty is with yeilds, which aren't actually bad from the vaporization, but SWIP doesn't approach fifty percent yeild once he has treated with JD, xylene, VM&P and on top of that run through the tetra trap. He is careful about overheating in each step, careful about using too much H2O in the TT, but evidently has yet to develop the proper technique. (He would love to bee a fly on Shorty's shoulder during one of his extracts.)

One other detail that SWIP doesn't want to leave out is the newly revised gak list of the red hots he used. He actually tore off the list of inactives to be able to list them here, but somehow lost them before he made it to the computer. It was the worst list he's seen from the evil Gak-Mongers yet. Several items he has not previously seen listed, and which he had never heard of previously. At step beyond cross povidone, PEG, O, OII--whatever that is.

 At any rate, SWIP has yet to try it, but suspects he can get similar results just by running the TT then vaporization cleaning. One other possibility is that, with careful heating, it should be possible to melt only the FB, or if not to pan it off to the side of the container, since the FB tends to seperate from the brown shit once it's melted. SWIP was going to try it with a couple of raw pills ground up with some sodium carbonate and MeOH. While he doesn't really expect that to work, you never know!

PP

[Scottydog]

After messing with the stainless steel carafe as a replacement for a glass carafe in the tetra trap extraction, it got Swim to thinking.

Does anyone here think that it might bee possible to run a tetra trap in Dwarfer's patented PP/SS (Stainless steel pressurized pipe)?

Heat at 100C for 5-10 minutes, remove from water bath with tongs, allow to completely cool, place in vice, open one end cap and then filter through a cotton ball?

[clandestine]

Heres how swim does his napthenic (vm&p) version of the tetra trap.. swim likes ending the FB pull with an acetone evap for maximum yields.

With this version you just chill the freebase out of the naptha(24 hour chill) and filter it washing the glassware you used to chill out with acetone and scraping up the evap.

HEre goes the tried and true ez-ass super extraction... ez as pie.

You need
************************************************

sodium carbonate (washing soda or ph up at wallys) check the label is sais sodium carbonate

Vp&p Naptha (a must for the chill)..

pseudoephedrine pills... any compilation make or model.

(dh20 or methanol) your choice just need a little anywayz.

Tetra - TCE.. you know.. if you dont oh well.

**********************************************
SO just grind your pills to powder and mix in an = amount of sodium carbonate.. too much carbonate is better than too little so dont be shy with it.... mix the fuck out of it... you cant mix enough so dont be skimpz either... grind that shit.

put the shit in the flask and spray it down with Tetra... spray it good... make it a big damp cake but not too runny... you want it super saturated with no free running tetra ok.... thats all.

then next add a nice amount of pre-warmed naptha... a good inch or so above the pill mass... and then add 15cc per 100pills of DH20 or METHANOL... your choice both work fine.

now let this all heat up to boiling and stir it up real good... once the naptha is burning hot take off heat and filter out the clean naptha while its still very hot with a cotton plugged filter and coffee filters on top... also be sure you pour the flask totally upside down when enptying the oils this ensures a little more yield if using bigger glassware getting the oils out as hot and as fast as possible.


Next just chill the naptha for 24 hours in the freezer and come back and filter again... then wash the glass out with cold acetone and then evap the washings on a pyrex and scrape off the nice crystals 5 hours+ later depending on the amount.

This trap yields the purest FB swim has seen in a long time for such a short stright to the point extraction.

swim will post a pic or something if he can find the right time of some really pretty fb crystals.



HERE is Some TIPS for the NEWBEEZ to this tech



1. Save that naptha.. just freeze it for 24 hours and filter and its good to go again many times.. (you use a lot over time so save it all).

2. Keep your pill masses and never throw them away until all yields are pulled.. you will be suprised how much FB is still in the masses.. (swim saves all his in a special bucket and does a big pull on the pile when its overloading usually netting 10G FB extra any given time.) so its worth saving.


3. Chill it 24 hours atleast (for maximum yields).

4. be sparing with the tetra its the most used vital took..... use it like holy water if you have less than 5 cans.


5. always wash your glass with TONE and save the tone evaps for lost yields.. it works good.

6. it may look cloudy like a gack in the naptha when its first chilling but be rest assured that cloudy mass is crystals when its dried on a pyrex or tone washed and evaped.