Author Topic: beautiful  (Read 43881 times)

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Scottydog

  • Guest
They both work!
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2003, 10:30:00 PM »
Both toluol and xylol will work just fine. Swim has evaporated both. He agrees with Geez that evaporating xylol is nasty smelling shit and is a very quick way to get LE or curious neighbors out to the workspace.

Swim is almost certain that titrating with xylol will work. The only problem (same as with tolly) is that polyethylene glycol WILL follow through. A almost guaranteed reaction killer!

Must bee ditched at the freebase stage "poured off" (post evap) and then add fresh solvent, water and then it would bee cool to drop the pseudo into the polar with muriatic.

Swim to this day has never heard any of the bees that prefer to gas instead of titrate (to get the HCl form) complain of PEG contamination.

I'm sure it has been brought up before and I believe Geez was the one, but Swim has yet to gas with this method. When one chooses to gas rather then titrate he suspects that the PEG remains in the tolly or xylene when the crystals are filtered off.

Can anyone confirm?

Hope this helps...


ahgreich

  • Guest
vmp affirmation
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2003, 10:39:00 PM »
as geez stated, the vmp chill is a great way to get the crystals sans evaporation. after the crystals are filtered, it's easy to wash them with cold dh20 while still in the filter. in case no one has mentioned it yet, the VMP freeze done in a very clean beaker is a fascinating thing to see, quite holographic.

spectralshift

  • Guest
as geez stated, the vmp chill is a great way...
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2003, 02:28:00 AM »
as geez stated, the vmp chill is a great way to get the crystals sans evaporation. after the crystals are filtered, it's easy to wash them with cold dh20 while still in the filter. in case no one has mentioned it yet, the VMP freeze done in a very clean beaker is a fascinating thing to see, quite holographic.


Actually it's a shit technique and always has been.

OTC Naphtha's have all sorts of hydrocarbons in them, even from brand to brand.

There's every chance there are phat traces of hydrocarbons that hold on even at low temperatures.

How you figure it just isn't possible is beyond me, especially when you don't what VMP even is. What, what is it? Ya don't know, and you don't even know what clever jones is usin'.

It's typically nonane and decane, but even if I bought a solvent that explicity stated that's what it contained I'd never use it like that technique is described.

It's a good to v.good solvent for a wash, and nothing else.

I only say it's a very good washing solvent because it's often a primarily two component hc + only healthy traces of others.

That's why I say that any hydrocarbon based paint-thinner or spray can is going to bee a great solvent for cleaning pills, and ive seen it with my own eyes.

SHORTY

  • Guest
Halfkast is that you?
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2003, 05:31:00 AM »
Why the name change?  Anyways, to give my opinion on the above question about tolune and xylene.  Xylene is a better solvent for gassing cause it seems less able to hold any water and because it will keep more gaaks dissolved while precipitating the psuedo.  I prefer to use toluene for titrating because if i am in a hurry, which is usually the case, and i don't wait long enough for the layers to seperate, a little tol in the evap dish goes unoticed.   With xylene i always get a slightly oily result.  However, both can bee used with proper technique.


energizer_bunny

  • Guest
Any Non-polar...
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2003, 05:48:00 AM »
solvent can bee used for titration successfully.
The same goes for gassing.
Some are more receptive toward the amine being extracted.
It's true that some are more selective toward attracting gaaks, ie PEG...tween80...etc...
The trick is in removing them before rxn.
Ether seems to be the best extraction medium for pulling meth. The smell and it's association makes it a bad choice for cooks and apprentices.
xylene...toluene....naptha(warm), all will extract meth or pfed successfully. Titrating or gassing.


spectralshift

  • Guest
*nods* banned, well it was I don't know if it...
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2003, 06:48:00 AM »
*nods*

banned, well it was I don't know if it still is. heeh my fault though for sure, gradual deterioration, then abusive rampage.
Need time away, i get bored easily, refuse to even think sometimes, ignore rules and also childish. and thats all.  ;D

Xylene is a better solvent for gassing cause it seems less able to hold any water and because it will keep more gaaks dissolved while precipitating the psuedo.  I prefer to use toluene for titrating because if i am in a hurry, which is usually the case, and i don't wait long enough for the layers to seperate, a little tol in the evap dish goes unoticed.   With xylene i always get a slightly oily result.  However, both can bee used with proper technique.

Ill remember that, xylene for gassing, toluene for titration.
Your right toluene holds more water.


It'd bee nice to have detailed soly data so we could explore lowering the temperature of the NP's for extraction.

ahgreich

  • Guest
some clarification
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2003, 02:08:00 PM »
concerning the dh20 wash while the crystals are still in the filter - that would, of course, occur AFTER the residual vmp is evaporated, to remove residual PEG.

geezmeister

  • Guest
why not titrate xylene?
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2003, 06:47:00 AM »
You can titrate xylene all you want. You usually will find that it is such an agressive solvent it will dissolve a few things in the mix that will come out when you titrate, but will not come out when you gas.

You will get a good product when you gas, and xylene lends itself to gassing very well as it just doesn't hold moisture.

If you extract meth with xylene and titrate, you will find some trash in your meth everytime that you will not find if you gas. This is not a knock on xylene, it is an observation of what happens when you titrate for meth HCl.


I'm sorry you folks from OZ can't get our perfectly good VM&P natptha, but until you have the opportunity to use its particular characteristics to your advantantage, I would suggest that you not knock it on your theoretical musings. Knocking it without experiencing it happens to be a disservice to those who can obtain it. Hot VM&P naptha is my solvent of choice for meth extraction, mostly because it is such a poor solvent over all that it rarely brings trash with it. The extraction tends to be cleaner from the start.


gluecifer69

  • Guest
Mine are not theoretical musings
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2003, 11:08:00 AM »
Just want to make one thing clear, swim never claimed to have used VM+P Naptha, but the petroleum distillate paint thinners Coleman's and charcoal starters swim has before used a time ago for what swim thought would be a substitute for  Varnish Makers and Painters Naptha.

Swim stated that these so called naptha substitutes (petroleom distillites), make for poor post rxn NP's unless hot, but that is just swims experience.
    Obviously there is no substitute, correct?


geezmeister

  • Guest
VMP Naptha must be hot
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2003, 01:36:00 PM »
VM&P naptha is a poor meth solvent unless hot. In fact, its a pretty poor solvent, period, but just happens to be an excellent meth solvent when hot. Used hot, it is still a poor solvent for much anything else. Hence, it is a great solvent to use hot to extract meth. The same is true of camp fuel.


spectralshift

  • Guest
past comments
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2003, 12:37:00 AM »
I think that my past comments may have polluted what you think I think geezmeister.


Don't feel bad, it isn't wanted, there are better solvents to do the job.

I'd say enamel paint thinner in Oz is pretty close to Vanish Maker and Paint naptha up there, maybee better. I'd say so.

Anyone, and I think an Oz bee or two is included in this...who has achieved similar-identical results is just coincidence.

Where have you or VE described what the stuff actually is? No where.

I've seen tens of naptha msds, they arent all right.


If it's so tentative at dissolving pfed, and meth (?), why would you use it, when theres relatively pure aromatics like tolly and xyly available to make things certain?

suss

  • Guest
why use VM&P
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2003, 02:33:00 AM »
Spec,

Me being a newbee may be totally wrong, but what I have gathered is this:

I think the advantage of using hot naptha is that it is readily available (at least in the US) solvent that is relatively weak, but still dissolves meth. Because of this, the solvent will satisfactorily dissolve meth, but has less chance of dissolving other gakks and shit. If you use xylene, it is a very strong solvent, which as you mentioned, dissolves meth bloody well, but you risk dissolving other compounds as well - thus contaminating the final product.

Hope this makes sense. Would one of the pros correct me if I'm wrong cause I want to understand this.

What Swim wants to know also, is if enamel thinners (containing "aromatic naptha") are a suitable substitute.

spectralshift

  • Guest
That's all rightish, but what that side ...
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2003, 03:27:00 AM »
That's all rightish, but what that side ignores, overlooks is that it can contain impurities of other solvents.

Well you can use it, and I'd heat it, in case it is as weak as that side says...

I think it makes more sense to tamper with the temperature of xylene, well that's what I'd prefer.

See, I've been outspoken and have said tongue in cheek (hehe tongue in gash - mmm) things that probably make it seem as though I'm just complaining that I don't have it.

But this is the case:

1. S2E called for VMP and none other with no real details, however i trusted and went along with that. it needed to bee found.

2. Oz bees started asking what it is called in Oz and where to source.  There is nothing called VMP nap in Oz but we decided to look at US formulas and there were many formulas. But the basic idea was that they were low aromatic hydrocarbons,

Look up VM&P naphtha, they are all different! That's when I figured 'the idiots! how can they describe that VM&P naphtha does this at whatever temperature when I've just found 3 different formula's at 3 different sites?? I'm not gonna use this shit, I don't wannit even! They don't even know what they're using, because if they did I wouldn't bee researching it'

anyway im not saying it for me, obviously if i liked the advertisements I would have ordered some.

If youve been getting pristine results and yields havent suffered due to the method then by all means do it, but you can't just say "VM&P Naptha does this..."

Anyway it's Naptha WO/WAR/Jihad On The Boards!

geezmeister

  • Guest
why naptha
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2003, 07:10:00 AM »

If it's so tentative at dissolving pfed, and meth (?), why would you use it, when theres relatively pure aromatics like tolly and xyly available to make things certain?




I use it for precisely that reason.

It is a poor solvent, described by the posts I recall as being notoriously "lazy."

Use it at room temperature and you will leave pseudo and meth in abundance behind, unless you use such large quantitites of naptha that it borders on the absurd.

Heat that naptha up, and as far as pseudo or meth are concerned, it becomes a very good solvent--- but not necessary a very good solvent for a lot of other things that may be in that mix, things that will dissolve in tolly or xylene, or other good aromatics. With HOT naptha, you get the meth without a few other things that seem to come everytime you use xylene or tolly. The final product is cleaner right out of the evap dish. Isn't that one of our goals?

I didn't discover this, by any stretch of the imagination. Jacked made the point to me years ago discussing Coleman fuel, which works great, but which I detest because of the antioxidant. I have used clean camp fuels but in my area the purchase of VM&P naptha can be made without raising an eyebrow, while the purchase of camp fuel always gets a stare. With an ounce or so of meth to be extracted, the four and half dollar price difference is small change.

Try extracting with hot naptha, or hot camp fuel. See what difference it makes in the cleanliness of the product before recrystallization and it will make a believer out of you. You use its weaknesses to your advantage.

 The great disadvantage is that it must be heated to nearly its boiling point to really utilize the advantage. There are risks in doing this which should not be minimalized. Hot naptha is an angry beast, and can cause severe burns. Make sure the fans are in place, sparkless heat sources used, and the naptha brought close to but not to its boiling point. These reduce, but do not eliminate, the risks.




Prepuce

  • Guest
More tips?
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2003, 08:35:00 AM »
This is easily the best and easiest cure SWIM has ever tried.  Saying thanks for all of the hard work that went into this discovery doesn't begin to express SWIM's gratitude.

This procedure worked so quickly and easily that SWIM decided to try it on some of the cheapest raw materials he could find. Disclosed inactives were: carnauba wax, corn startch, flavor, hydroxypropl methylcellulose, lactose, magnesium stearate, PEG, povidone, sucrose. In addition they had the kind of red shell that is nearly impossible to remove, so he just ground 'em up whole and tossed them into the beaker. Then he remembered two boxes of white 60's containing another laundry list of inactives.WTF. In they went.

Everything looked normal until after freezing the vm&p and time to filter. But what plopped out into the funnel was a large blob of what looked like turkey gellatin. All it did was sit there--no sign of melting as it warmed. He took this mess, funnel and all, and plugged it into his vaccuum filtration rig and grabbed a can of brake cleaner (tetra), carefully spraying it into the jello. The blob immediately melted away leaving the cleanest bacth of crystals he ever saw. Pristine, they were, and gone was any evidence of PEG. He let the aspiration continue for another minute or two, then spread out the sparkling white crystals which dried in about five minutes.

SWIM was also wondering about the addition of water and why it didn't gum things up right from the beginning. He imagines that the psuedo is already converted to FB before the H2O hits it, and has become mostly insoluble by then. Not so for the gak. Ha!

How much would you pay for a technique like this? But wait, don't answer yet! Because if you order before midnight tonight, you also get this suggestion. AFter extracting everything you can from freezing the vm&p, hit what's left with a little HCl and watch for stormy weather!

PP

ahgreich

  • Guest
tetra wash
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2003, 01:39:00 PM »
the blob of jello might have been avoided by first soaking the pill mass/carbonate with tetra, heat, squeeze out excess tetra, repeat. proceed as normal (top with vmp and add h20)

spectralshift

  • Guest
I use it for precisely that reason.
« Reply #76 on: December 12, 2003, 06:52:00 PM »
I use it for precisely that reason.

It is a poor solvent, described by the posts I recall as being notoriously "lazy".


I know, I know what your saying.


Well, maybe it could be considered going the opposite direction with a more pure, definable solvent.

Maybe the fact that we know that very cold VM&P tends to precipitate very pure pfed, we can summise from that that controlling the temperature of concentrated or near concentrated NP solutions is a good way to single out substances in general.
Gaks or pfed, it doesn't matter.
This is towards the end of a procedure of course, not the whole way, too arduous.


Anyway.

JUMPER

  • Guest
Great thread until!
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2003, 01:47:00 AM »
Would like to also thank for the great write-ups in this thread on method.  However there is so much info in TFSE that sometimes it takes much patience to filter through the opinions to get to something concrete. SUSS(stranger), from me to you, please in the future at least type the word of what you want to know in the FSE! Xylene, Toluene, Naptha, whatever! There is a fucking book in here on those chemicals of info alone.  I also believe it's covered in what the newbees coming here are suppose to read for the basics.  I'm not trying to fuck with you. Your FSE question lead to the other bees bickering over shit that I have seen time and time again. Clogging up good threads with repetative opinions or shit that's already been hashed out tenfold in TFSE.  Is there a race to get to the next bee level that I'm unaware of? I'm reading a great thread and then this FSE shit!  You older bee's know that shit's already here and you also know that you found what you liked from your own success with certain chems trying each if smart. Maybe it's because you older bee's don't have to use TFSE because you have found your groove. But this bickering shit that you should be PM'ing eachother is why it takes so long to get through the repetitious opinions and find answers.  Strangers and Newbees what I've read so far, which is a lot, has shown me that if you have had no experience like myself until finding this site. You first search what precursers you need and ways of obtaining. Then go search what lab equipment each method or rxn takes, if it's available, if you understand how the equipment works, how much money you got! Once you have knowledge of the precursers and the equipment down, you can pick the method you want to try. Don't worry about the variations of the method yet, just which one you'll fuck up first(I mean attempt)! And then search for every chemical and step can be involved or used and how many ways it can be used. Research how many variations of time,quantities,mixtures,cleanings,extractions, and on and on. Write down everything in these searches that two or three bee's with experience agree on (Ha Ha), write it all down cause you'll never remember after your head explodes from stress. Then take your information and go see what is available for you in your area, what will work best in your lab environment, what dangers are you willing to deal with? Meaning things like heating,smells,spills,fires,and people that carry handcuffs with the little man complex. Once you've got the info, see what's available, get the appropriate safety shit for what you're going to use,and process through what will work in your lab or truck; you're ready to go get a mark who has half a brain and bring him over. Give him a list of each item with specific quantities, prices, stores, alternate names, what he is using it for if asked, and anything he could fuck up. Tell him to buy each item separately as written at any given store even if he has to go back five different times. Have him read everything over, give him the money, tell him to call you from a payphone when he's almost done, and then to take everything once bought to his house and you'll come by later.  Then drive over close to his house and watch for him to get home. The handcuff fuckers have to stay in eye contact with a vehicle they are following and most taught to stay in the 3rd to 4th car spot. So if your mark didn't follow directions or made the store or security uncomfortable, you can see if there are problems. Most are being trained now to not apprehend but to follow since most smart people that play have others get items for them. You can then drive all around the blocks surrounding if everything seems cool and look for any car parked with a driver that can visible see the house. They are taught to keep an eye for between 1/2hr to 1hr after arriving and they are usually sitting in their car doing their paperwork. Once you have checked everything to be cool, then call your mark and tell him you changed your mind and bring everything over to your house. Then watch him come out and follow him in that 3rd or 4th position to your house. Keep an eye behind and in front of you and see if any cars are going your way. The handcuff people are being taught better and better as we know. Some might think this to be overkill on playing with glassware and in some parts of certain countries it is. In the United States 90% of p-l-ce departments go off of standard opererating guidelines of three or four different texts from the largest p-l-ce forces and proven techniques. These are adopted to smaller depts. The items I've explained are pretty standard throughout all texts depending on the threat involved. But as far as the U.S. and the threat of suspicious activity with honey, this is what you can expect for a little while, depending on how many use this site and read this.
  Well I'm not sure how I went from the bitching I was trying to do, to telling others how they should proceed when I'm new at this also, to busting out procedures of certain people who are going to be pissed at me, but fuck em if they can't keep their texts from me or their employees from talking. This was way too much shit for one post!


SHORTY

  • Guest
Off topic!
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2003, 03:23:00 AM »
Jumper, you have alot of nerve bitching about other bees clogging up the threads.  I mean look at your post, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic in this thread.

When you do have something on topic to say please try using paragraphs.  Also i think that your idea for alluding the "people with handcuffs" would draw more attention than just buying the stuff without being paranoid.


suss

  • Guest
"extended" tetra trap?
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2003, 09:28:00 AM »
Ok,

Swim is sure this question will bug some bees, and if it does he is sorry. If it bugs you just ignore this post and don't reply. 

Swim wants his first dream to be a success - he is easily put off by initial failures, and understands that pseudo purity is of great importance to achieving good results.

Swim does not wish to make meth in great quantities. He just wants an absolutely kick-ass product for personal use that will keep him up for days and minimise neurodamage. So we will assume that he therefore does not mind wasting a little extra solvent if the final product is worth it. He has been reading that some PEG comes through with the tetra trap, and is wondering if the following procedure would improve things. It is basically a summary of all the "tips" in this thread, and swim hopes using this method will remove the need for recrystallisation of the sudo to remove PEG, etc:

1. Grind pills only in coffee grinder.
2. Soak in tetra, heat on hotplate for, say, 10-20 min.
3. Decant off/filter off tetra
4. Repeat steps 2-3
5. Dry pill mass (this step probably not needed)
6. Soak pill mass in xylene, heat for 10-20 min.
7. Decant/filter off xylene.
8. Repeat steps 6-7

(It is probable that these soaks could be done simultaneously to save time using a mixture of tetra and xylene - any advice here?)

9. Dry pill mass completely in oven. Place in grinder with sodium carbonate, continue on with tetra trap extraction.

10. Instead of using toluene or naptha for the final step, use xylene and gas for final product.

So, what do you think? This is merely the theoretical ramblings of a beginner bee, but as he sees it, the preliminary washes should remove any PEG and other impurities that could be extracted by xylene in the final step. Is he right here?