Author Topic: Iodoephedrine reduction  (Read 6376 times)

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Lucid_Dreamer

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Iodoephedrine reduction
« on: November 12, 2003, 03:58:00 PM »
I seen a  post a while back that I started to think about which concerns further reducing of iodoephedrine to meth after reductions with iodine and RP, H3PO3, etc. I can't seem to find it anymore and Rhodium's Search engine is broke, does anyone know what I'm talking about or the post I am looking for?


geezmeister

  • Guest
old posts on running again
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2003, 05:08:00 PM »
I recall an old thread about re-reacting meth that was only partially reduced in a previous reaction. A second reaction will reduce the interemediates and any pseudo left to meth, and you can add the meth/iodo-intermediates mix with pseudo in the new reaction. You may have some loss in expected technique handling the same stuff a second time, but no more than you would experience in a normal reaction that completed. You just are doing everything with that mix a second time, and most everyone loses a little to the glassware and the spills and drops and washes each time through. It will not harm the meth to rereact it in an HI reaction. It will improve the meth you have if it is not completely reduced by reducing the part of it that did not reduce before.

Then again, you could just do a long wet reflux to start with. Same result. Less work.


SHORTY

  • Guest
This might bee the post your looking for.....
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2003, 07:58:00 PM »

Post 400334 (missing)

(SHORTY: "Re-Cooking Meth for Higher Potentcy", Stimulants)



Lucid_Dreamer

  • Guest
Well, that is a good point you two make, I was
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2003, 08:03:00 PM »
Well, that is a good point you two make, I was thinking of something other than that, like if SWIM were going to do a HI with 3x molar mass of E with a long reflux, one would expect alot of iodoephedrine after gassing so then swim could do this other thing, I think the principal is to mix in ether and do some type of simple hydrogenation, but it was simpler than that, but I can't find it again. Someone mentioned Li in situ after reflux, but then they said they were just throwing it up.


fierceness

  • Guest
i think wizardx has stated in one of his ...
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2003, 08:38:00 PM »
i think wizardx has stated in one of his writeups that iodoephedrine is easily reduced by LAH in ether without the need for reflux.. check his archives for a definitive answer

weaz1dls

  • Guest
Yes
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2003, 03:18:00 PM »
Feirceness is correct. Wiz-x is the B...

It's benefits are best seen when doing large amount/ fast cooks, where the amount of unreacted cookie dough is higher. SWIW chalked it up as more trouble than it's worth on the smaller ones.  THe resulting increase in product vs. the time/steps...hell just do it a little wetter/ longer to get the same results.  Al this is probly redundant shit.  SWIW just woke up and had a main course of glass dick... so pardon the Blonde HAir! 8)

amalgum

  • Guest
About how long would it take for something...
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2003, 05:12:00 PM »
About how long would it take for something like 57%HI to convert pseudo into iodoephedrine?
Also, once iodoephedrine is made how stable is it?  Can it be extracted with normal a/b?
SWIM was thinking about how he liked the quickness of a dry reaction, but hated the fact that even a very good dry run still doesn't provide quite the quality of a wet reflux, plus they are easier to fuck up.  SWIM likes the wet reflux cause it's easier to complete, the quality is the best, but hates how it takes so fucking long.

Basically, the question is, for no other advantage except quickness, maybe one could use a premade solution of HI to quickly turn all the shit to iodoephedrine, then extract it and run it through a quick dry reduction.  Since your putting already half-converted product into the reduction, your sure to get top notch quality (full conversion), plus it would probably be quicker than a reflux (although still a little longer than a quick dry reduction, but no 12-24 hours)?

weaz1dls

  • Guest
Leftovers
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2003, 05:46:00 PM »
SWIW dreamt the final titration pulls, the ones that smell like chlorine, were collected in a container and used for experimentation. Every so often this mix is rinsed and thrown into a batch.  Those always seemed to have a quality resembling that of a long reflux. Or it could be different high, different time?  SWIW doesn’t know but when the post high skillets (tweakers) were quizzed, the skillets never noticed a difference except a smoother ride and less returns to the trough. This translates to the same conclusion...better quality.  Amalgam may be onto something only it sounds like too much to screw with.  "Like hmm...electric can opener or the cheap aluminum can opener?"

Personally SWIW thinks we are all analytical junkies.

Rhodium

  • Guest
Jump to conclusions
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2003, 06:42:00 PM »
maybe one could use a premade solution of HI to quickly turn all the shit to iodoephedrine, then extract it and run it through a quick dry reduction.  Since your putting already half-converted product into the reduction, your sure to get top notch quality (full conversion)

No, that is completely incorrect. Only time and moderate heat will give pure product in high yields.

Lucid_Dreamer

  • Guest
Amalgum, me and you think alot alike buddy ;-)
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2003, 06:43:00 PM »
Amalgum, me and you think alot alike buddy ;)

No one is sure how long it takes to convert iodoephedrine into meth with HI 57%, it is well desputed over a quick or long reflux, and I am not sure if anyone has experimented with a 57% hydriodic acid reduction, but I am sure it would take a lengthy reflux and 3x the molar mass of pseudo, something like 30grams of E and 110ml of HI 57% to be on the safe side.

And yes I was thinking of the Lithium Alluminum Hydrdide, thanks.
I think the best direction this thread can go in is  ways of converting iodoephedrine to meth with as little side reactions as possible or maybe we can discuss the 57% HI reduction of pseudo, can we get some honey scholars in here......


wareami

  • Guest
One tequila....
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2003, 08:29:00 PM »
two tequila...three techkilla........
FLOOR!
One sentence solidifies what Ibee's taken 1000, 6000word posts to convey!

Only time and moderate heat will give pure product in high yields



Will miracles never cease?

Peace of the REaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE



amalgum

  • Guest
Re: No, that is completely incorrect.
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2003, 12:23:00 PM »


No, that is completely incorrect. Only time and moderate heat will give pure product in high yields




Thats not true though.  And Rhodium of all people should know beter.  Just look at all of the CTH methods.  They deal with converting the pfed into some kinda ester (in this case a halo analogue), then hydrogenating it.  Same concept here.

I wasn't saying convert the pfed to iodoephedrine and then run it through to get best quality product.  I was saying this as maybe a way to get best quality product QUICKER.

I see no difference in what SWIM proposed than say converting it to a sulfate ester and hydrogenating with Pd/C.  Just we are converting it to the iodo ester, and reducing via HI.


Rhodium

  • Guest
Dense?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2003, 05:45:00 PM »
Thats not true though.  And Rhodium of all people should know beter.  Just look at all of the CTH methods.

Are you really as dumb as to not understand that I was talking about HI based reductions?

What makes you think that the reaction Ephedrine -> Iodoephedrine -> Meth would run faster if you isolated the intermediate Iodoephedrine? It defies all logic, it's like saying it will go faster to drive from point A to point C if you stop at point B for a coffee break inbetween...

Lucid_Dreamer

  • Guest
I understand your logic Rhodium, and once...
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2003, 06:49:00 PM »
I understand your logic Rhodium, and once again, sorry for the euro-remarks ;)  But what amalgum and I are pondering is reducing Iodoephedrine by other means than HI, and maybe reduce the ephedrine to iodoephedrine by other means than HI if possible and easy, like catalytic hydrogenation persay, while I have your attention, Rhodium, can you tell me what the chemical name or formula for Iodoephedrine is so I can do some research? All I can find on google is search results that are from the Hive, your site, and lycaeum when I search for iodoephedrine and iodomethamphetamine. And one more thing freind, is your search engine broke?

Man I sure can think alot clearer when I'm on *COCa~cola* ;D


BOS

  • Guest
Electro
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2003, 06:52:00 PM »
Amalgum,I fully understand you train of thought.
After many months of reading/theoretical experimenation with trying to produce HI,halogenate and reduce ephedrine in a devided electro cell,IT HAS JUST DAWNED ON ME!!

Rhod` You have indicated in a previous post in another thread that the halogenation part of the rdxn is not where
the time is needed,but rather when the HI acting on the iodo-intermediate.Is this right?
Do you have any idea as to how quickly the first step of the rxn proceeds?
Can the same be said for the need of a certain temp?
In other words,will ephedrine form its iodo counterpart, using HI as the halogenation agent,under ambiant temps?

Now Im sure there are other ways to iodinate ephedrine without the need for HI.Orgy rcently mentioned PI3 as being able to do this quicker.Ive read a few refs mentioning tri-iodides e.g the vanalin thread on your page.
I know there are many alternative ways to halogenation,a few mentioned on your page.
I have some refs on the selective dehalogenation/reduction
of aromatic compounds in electrochemical environments,
which see many uses in environmental science,and which dont seem any harder or less applicable to home cchemistry scenarios then electrochemical HI production.
Do you think it would be feasible to simply halogenate your ephedrine{(chloro,bromo,iodo)
Anyone interested should search for Electrochemical De-halogenation of aromatic compound.

I have a great feeling about applying this to the kitchen,
as I see it as by-passing many a pitfall encountered when setting out for the HI style rxns.
I also see it as being a high yielding,high purity method of
hydrogenation without the need for noble metal catalysts as electricity and carbon cathode is all that is required.

Think of it,as a cross between common HI reductions, WizardXs hydrogenations and Festers electro flop,except we need no pressure,we need no external hydrogen,no P,no Platinum et al.Less time,less chems alround.

I can see it now:Bromine spa tablets,Activated carbon,a labskin condom and a 12volt battery and we have meth by the bucket load.


I will clarify,be more formal if needed.

Any comments?

Thankyou in advance.


P.s I have mentioned this in the past,with little or no response. ::) I am scared to move it to one of the chemistry forums for I hold great fear of ridicule. ;D

Rhodium

  • Guest
Iodoephedrine a.k.a. Iodomethamphetamine
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2003, 07:55:00 PM »

Lucid_Dreamer

  • Guest
Is it the side-chain halogenation we want?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2003, 08:10:00 PM »
Is it the side-chain halogenation we want? What type of halogenation, there is alpha and so on.... I saw something about the Hell-Volhard-Zelinsky Reaction, I am not sure if it applies, I found alot of interesting stuff on halogenation of carboxylic acids, and also alkylation to form ketones, please point me in the right direction and I will go through all the articles in the morning when I am sure of what I am looking for, as for now, I'm off to celebrate the weekend :P


fierceness

  • Guest
iodo -> meth
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2003, 11:50:00 AM »
I told you a few posts back that LAH will convert iodoephedrine to methamphetamine in good yields.  Why try to reinvent the wheel?  Iodoephedrine is much easier to reduce than pseudoephedrine since the halogen is a much better leaving group. 

Maybe NaBH4 will work too?

Lucid_Dreamer

  • Guest
Ummmm Yea, but now I am looking for a good way
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2003, 12:01:00 PM »
Ummmm Yea, but now I am looking for a good way to convert pseudo into iodo before I reduce iodo to meth, I first have to find a iodo patent (which is difficult).


Osmium

  • Guest
> now I am looking for a good way to ...
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2003, 01:46:00 PM »
> now I am looking for a good way to convert pseudo into iodo

Reflux it with HI.
DOH!