Author Topic: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn  (Read 21289 times)

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Rhodium

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2001, 03:20:00 AM »
An accurate estimate of purity with a melting depression can not be made, but I would say that the purity is relatively good anyway, it is certainly 95%+.

I'd guess that the impurity is mainly the N-hydroxy amine, which is known to be formed in some Zn reductions. It should also be active, se all the HOT compounds in Pihkal.

Regarding the amount of solvent needed, I am sure we can tweak the reaction to use less if we experiment a bit.

sunlight

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2001, 07:27:00 AM »
Thanks Antibody2.
Rhod, there's a misunderstanding. The brominated sample is from a previous small batch a la Beaker and brominated a la Shulgin. The procedure usually stops in the hydrobromide, but the liquors of washes where worked to get 600 mg of de hydrochloride. What I wanted to mean is that this conditions of workup, a first test or a minimum amount, seems that as you said there's no mistery that the mp is depressed. I have always thought like you that purity is 95+%.
About OTC, well, I remeber that when I was a boy the bateries for light were made with graphite and Zinc, may be it could be recovered, washed and moltered, but I wonder how if someone can get the aldehyde and a few things more, he can't get 1 kilo of Zn dust. Anyway it seems that there are hard places in this world.
Ok, let's stop to talking about it, I'm tired and can't sleep thinking all the time in it. A few days more and we'll have more information.

Semtexium

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2001, 07:38:00 AM »
A few days MY ASS!!! Your a research ADDiCT!!!  ;)  Get some help or some sleep, GHB works wonders in just such a case old friend...  :)   Can't wait to hear some more good news...  8)

::)  ;D  :)  :P  ;)     Mean People Suck     ;)  :P  :)  ;D  ::)

Prdy2GO

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2001, 09:28:00 AM »
Might we have a bit more details on the Zn?
" You said "About OTC, well, I remeber that when I was a boy the bateries for light were made with graphite and Zinc, may be it could be recovered, washed and moltered," are you telling us that you ripped appart some battries for the Zn?
If so what are the details type, manuf., part, processing steps?
What other sources do you think would work?
Thinking about stripping the copper plating from a few pennies and using a dremal and the small drum sander or a grinding wheel? Do you thank that will work what else?
Thanks
...
..
.


Hum did you get that?

sunlight

  • Guest
Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2001, 03:29:00 PM »
No my god, I bought it in my regular-chems shop. Zn is nothing especial.
What I wanted to mean is that I broke bateries when was a child and get the Zn foil (0.5 mm or so ) to make electrochemical experiments, in the school. I know nothing about pennies, may be if you ask for euros...
And yes, I'm addict and I'm too much excited, almost ill, and can't work till Monday...
I've done a lot of failed tests with the nitro, a lot.

Semtexium

  • Guest
Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2001, 06:33:00 PM »
Your still my favorite addict Sunlight...  ;)

::)  ;D  :)  :P  ;)     Mean People Suck     ;)  :P  :)  ;D  ::)

KrZ

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2001, 09:21:00 AM »
Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but British Patent 793,965 details this reduction quite nicely.  While they use a thio-derivative, the conditions are clearly applicable.

~29.8 g Nitrostyrene dissolved in 300 cc Ethanol, 200 cc Acetic Acid, 100 cc H2O, and 80g Zinc dust added slowly with external cooling such that temp. did not rise above 30C.  Once Zn addition is completed they add 100 cc H2O and heat to 60C for one hour.  Filter off Zinc.  Distill off Ethanol fraction.  Basified with 40% NaOH to redissolve precipitated Zinc.  Extract 3X with ether, wash pooled ether extracts with 40% NaOH to remove any Zinc.  Distilled ether and crystallized in HCl/IPA.

sunlight

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2001, 12:36:00 AM »
I don't remeber it. I works with acetic acid too, I've tested H2SO4 and it seems to work as well. I still wonder how this so easy procedure has been ignored till now.

Rhodium

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2001, 12:58:00 AM »
KrZ: That patent deals with the already partially reduced phenylnitroethane, not a phenylnitroethene (nitrostyrene).

But coupled with the NaBH4 reduction of nitrostyrenes to phenylnitroethenes, this may be a good alternative to the CTH with ammonium formate to give the phenethylamine.

sunlight

  • Guest
Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2001, 03:28:00 AM »
Yes, you are right, Rhod, it reduces a curious phenyl nitroethane. I thought firstly that the alkylthio group was added to the ring, and I was very surprised with the first reaction, but in a second lecture I saw that the alkylthio is added to the double bound of the nitrostyrene

KrZ

  • Guest
Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2001, 12:06:00 AM »
I know it wasn't a nitrostyrene.  Same diff. though.  Zinc and Protons = FUN.  :P

sunlight

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2001, 01:17:00 AM »
My mind is in a some kind of explosion. I'm thinking now about to reduce nitromethane in methanol+acetic and Zn, then add Ketone, then add more Zn, more acetic, may be it will reduce as well the imine without Hg... Any impossible in this idea ?

Osmium

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2001, 02:11:00 AM »
I don't think the imine will form well with excess acetic acid around.

BenWiFFen

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2001, 06:10:00 AM »
1981 and up U.S penneys work good. Just hold one with a pair of plyers. Use your propain torch and melt the penney. When it starts to melt give it one shake and the Zn will fall leaving the copper jacket in the plyers. Let it fall into a frying pan or whatever,  Higher the better the Zn will make a bigger and thinner splat. Then cut with shears and toss in blender. It's sorta fun in no time at all you'll have a stack of splats.

Gear Driven ;)

megamole

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2001, 06:42:00 AM »
Wouldn't treating US pennies with an acetic acid bath do the trick? Just let them fizz until they're bright and shiny. Modern pennies are 96.5% zinc; stripping that thin copper coating off leaves you a very pure source to work with.

Still, the problem then is that solid zinc is very different than powdered zinc. How does one reconcile this, or does it even matter?

"Give me ten minutes with your inner child, and I'll give you back an inner adult."

foxy2

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2001, 02:19:00 PM »
There are several methods of precipitateing highly avctive Zinc Powder from Zinc salts.  I will post some details in the far future, as i am way to busy with other shit now.

Do Your Part To Win The War

sunlight

  • Guest
Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2001, 06:35:00 PM »
Wow, with this kind of pennies, may be your governement have definitivaly supported a new generation of home phenethylamine cookers. Copper++ will accelerate the rxn of Zn with HCl, wich in IMHO is a competitive rxn with the real rdxn that seems to proceed through a nitro-Zn intermediate (you'll see when you make it), so may be you need more Zn just reducing to pennies to dust. Copper hydroxides (Merck) seems that are solubles in alkaline solutions when fresh made and if only CuCl is formed, part of it could be filtered. Well, I'm especulating may be it won't so easy.
In other hand seems that BenWiFFen have solved the copper question, so now you need to make Zn dust.
Other way is foxy2 if works with common materials.
Anyway, how much is a penny ? Do you know why they are made with Zn ? , I believe is becuase Zn is absolutely cheap, even technical grade from Aldrich is not expensive, but I've found it 4 times cheaper from a minor company, and it's perfect. And see this Merck):

10255.    Zinc. 
Zn; at. wt 65.38; at. no. 30; valence 2.  Group 2b element.  Abundance in earth's crust:  0.02% by wt.  Natural isotopes:  64   (48.89%); 66 (27.81%); 68 (18.57%); 67 (4.11%); 70 (0.62%); eight radioactive isotopes and two isomers.  Occurs in   smithsonite or zinc spar, sphalerite or zinc blende, zincite, willemite, franklinite, [(Zn,Mn,Fe)O.(Fe.Mn2)O3] or gahnite (ZnAl2O4).  Has been known since very early times.  Commercial forms:  ingots; lumps; sheets; wire; shot; strips; sticks; granules; mossy; powder (dust).  Prepn:  Gowland, Bannister, Metallurgy of Non-Ferrous Metals (Griffin, London, 1930); Zinc  Production, Properties and Uses (Zinc Development Association, London, 1968).  Reviews:  Zinc, C. H. Mathewson, Ed.,
  A.C.S. Monograph Series no. 142 (Reinhold, New York, 1959) 721 pp; Schlechter, Thompson, "Zinc and Zinc Alloys" in Kirk-Othmer, Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, vol. 22 (Interscience, New York, 2nd ed., 1970) pp 555-603; Aylett, "Group IIB" in Comprehensive Inorganic Chemistry, vol. 3, J. C. Bailar, Jr. et al., Eds. (Pergamon Press, Oxford, 1973) pp 187-328.
Bluish-white, lustrous metal; distorted hexagonal close-packed structure; stable in dry air; becomes covered with a white coating of basic carbonate on exposure to moist air.  mp 419.5 deg.  bp 908 deg.  d25 7.14.  Heat capacity at constant pressure (25 deg):   6.07 cal/mole deg.  Mohs' hardness 2.5.  When heated to 100-150 deg becomes malleable, at 210 deg becomes brittle and pulverizable. 
Burns in air with a bluish-green flame.  Loses electrons in aqueous systems to form Zn2+ E deg (aq) n/Zn2+ 0.763 V.  Slowly attacked by H2SO4 or HCl; oxidizing agents or metal ions, e.g. Cu2+, Ni2+, Co2+, accelerate the process.  Reacts slowly with  ammonia water and acetic acid; rapidly with HNO3.  Reacts with alkali hydroxides to form "zincates",ZnO22-, which are   actually hydroxo complexes such as Zn(OH)3-; Zn(OH)42-, [Zn(OH)4(H2O)2]2-.
Caution:  Inhalation of fumes may result in sweet taste, throat dryness, cough, weakness, generalized aching, chills, fever,  nausea, vomiting.  Zinc chloride fumes have caused injury to mucous membranes and skin irritation.  Ingestion of sol salts may  cause nausea, vomiting, purging.  See E. Browning, Toxicity of Industrial Metals (Appleton-Century-Crofts, New York, 2nd  ed., 1969) pp 348-355.

USE:  Galvanizing sheet iron; as ingredient of alloys such as bronze, brass, Babbitt metal, German silver, and special alloys for die-casting; as a protective coating for other metals to prevent corrosion; for electrical apparatus, especially dry cell batteries, household utensils, castings, printing plates, building materials, railroad car linings, automotive equipment; as reducing agent in organic chemistry; for deoxidizing bronze; extracting gold by the cyanide process, purifying fats for soaps; bleaching bone glue; manuf sodium hydrosulfite; insulin zinc salts; as reagent in analytical chemistry, e.g., in the Marsh and Gutzeit test
for arsenic; as a reducer in the determination of iron.  It is a nutritional trace element.

"At 210 deg becomes brittle and pulverizable" it sounds good. It's extensively used in galvanization and in batteries. May be it won't be a problem.

I'm veery optimistic with this rxn, may be too much, but now I'm a bit exhalted. My reasons are that the patent says that (Antoncho) "
As was already mentioned, it only deals with the compounds in which either R1 or R2 or both of them are hydrogens. Unclear yet if it will make any differense.  (R1 and R2 are in positions 2 and 3 of the aromatic ring, respectively, and R3 is position 4).
a)   R1=R2=H b) R1=H, R2=OCH3       
b)    R1=OCH3, R2=H  and R3= AlkO- or PhCH2O- (Alk = C1-C3)

This means that is for 4 substituted nitrostyrenes, (R1=2 position and so on) with a CH3O in 2 or in 1 (only one) or just H in both.
It has worked with 2,5 DMNS, this is not the patent. What about 2,4,5 or 3,4,5 or 2,4,6,? and what about the corresponding nitropropenes and 2,5 DMPNP ? It can work or not, but it should work still better with the 4 substituted nitrostyrenes, and why not with the nitropropenes ? We'll se in the test bench, I'm very optimistic.


sunlight

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2001, 06:39:00 PM »
I think Zn dust is necessary, and a coffee grinder won't make the work at all. But try it.
Osmium, yes you are right, but may be the pH could be controlled in the imine reduction. May be.

Rhodium

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2001, 09:14:00 PM »
I believe the patent restrictions on the structure was made to not infringe on other patents, and not that it would be a problem with the reaction itself. The only thing I believe it doesn't work on are those acid-sensitive asarone'ish compounds. It may also work differently on nitropropenes if the reduction mechanism depends on the nitro group to be primary, but I see no real reason for that to be the case either.


improv_chem

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Re: Russian patents works!!! Zn-HCl nitrostryrene rdxn
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2001, 05:55:00 PM »
Sweet!!!! Super Sweet!  Now SWIM has a good way to reduce those nitropropenes that have been forming as thoughts in SWIM's head for some time now.
This is exactly the type of research that I love to see coming from the hive.
I really do love kitchen chemistry!! ;)
-improv :)

Let's play with nature a little, I'm sure we can make her a little higher....