Author Topic: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic  (Read 2120 times)

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Offline atara

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Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« on: October 19, 2021, 06:42:28 PM »
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174/

Apparently, the recent scale-up of P2P reductive amination by chemists in Mexico is producing a more dangerous product. I don't think that this meshes well with the normal reports of racemic vs dextro- methamphetamine, though. Racemic might give you colder hands, but it doesn't make you go crazy.

So what the hell are these quacks doing? Is a nitromethane Al/Hg leaving metals in the product? Is there some kind of synthetic byproduct? Or is it just that increased availability, novice users and bad memories created a mirage?

Offline carl

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2021, 07:31:30 PM »
So what the hell are these quacks doing? Is a nitromethane Al/Hg leaving metals in the product? Is there some kind of synthetic byproduct? Or is it just that increased availability, novice users and bad memories created a mirage?
If you mean the media with "these quacks", then they are just doing what they always do :P
Exaggeration and inflation.

I think there is even an episode of that frankocanadian fetish cartoon show (for kids!) on at least the topic of inflation ;D


Oh man, now I read half that article, its infuriating and just plainly wrong :o
You should know better :o

I mean, wtf is this shit:
Quote
Bozenko’s sample contained mostly d-methamphetamine. Someone had removed most of the l-meth. “I’ve taken down labs in several continents,” Bozenko told me years later. No one in the criminal world, as far as he and his colleagues knew, had ever figured out how to separate d-meth from l-meth before.
That is exactly both a description of the known one-step chiral enrichment(as its one step, and only enriched) separation I know of and congruent with the findings of the DEA.
"mostly", yeah, because after one step, its still ~70% (S)-, but that suffices to form crystals or "sharts" as they call them in english apparently :P

Yeah so much for smoking sharts: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shart
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Online jacolives

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2021, 07:38:42 PM »
Increased availability, novice users.  It’s sort of the reverse of the people that say “shit was way better back in my day a quarter gram or crank used to keep me up for days” - no you’ve just been using for 25 years and your brain is no longer able to produce neurotransmitters fast enough.  While meth has been produced on industrial scales for a while in Mexico, it has still taken several years before it was readily available and CHEAP in some parts of the country.

Also the way people use it has gotten more ambitious.  Smoking sure, will get you pretty crazy if you can manage to get enough in you fast enough but there is a limit.  Now tough people smoke all day and smoke it fast with through bongs.  Then there are innovations like the “hot rail”.  I have seen people crush up 7 grams, then split it into FOUR lines.  People do this all day too.  Any panhandler or school teacher or whatever can buy an ounce for personal use no problem.
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Offline carl

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2021, 07:43:52 PM »
Someone should put a panhandle in those peoples asses, or seven, maybe even nine.
Wtf is this shit with the taken doses?

I can stil stay up two or more likely three days with 100mg of amphetamine sulfate if I need to, tolerance free.
Don't they know that this shit goes down in times of no use?
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Online jacolives

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2021, 07:45:24 PM »
What is this “times of no use” you speak of?  Must be some weird Euro thing.  :P
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Offline carl

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2021, 07:49:57 PM »
What is this “times of no use” you speak of?  Must be some weird Euro thing.  :P
Yes exactly :D
We mean with that, given that we had no analogue laws until currently, that we just take different drugs and do not use the "parent drug" for a time(it never gave me her titties for milk tho!).
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline aes256

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2021, 02:41:43 AM »
Then there are innovations like the “hot rail”.

Yeah that shit is pretty far out! You know you've got a propper meth user on your hands when they casually hot rail a fat fucking line of gear  :o
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Offline arkoma

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2021, 06:22:17 AM »
What is this “times of no use” you speak of?  Must be some weird Euro thing.  :P

LMFAO, no doubt!

*edit* I remember WELL they heyday of good old e-dope in SoCal during the 80's, I was there. And there were psychotics then, trust me. Most of the racemic crap on the market nowadays hardly even seems good enough to me to short-circuit your sanity.  All a matter of an individuals brain chemistry and ROA I reckon.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 06:54:52 AM by arkoma »
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Offline DerAlteSack

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strange things happen
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2021, 12:17:14 PM »
So nowadays I see that drugs which not long ago were not even regarded as drugs worth the name like ephedrine or ritalin which are now commonly called "strong stimulants" whilst I associate them with decaf plus unpleasant side effects, that compounds like this induce psychosis in people like it was only known from hardcore crystal meth tweakers. Are the younglings all wimps?
Well they are but not to the extent to explain all this and the problems raised in the article (and completely misinterpretated).

I would like to suggest another explanaition (partly hinted at but not taken up in the article):

I know that opiates and related compounds cause massive paranoia and delusions when used together with Meth. Problem is a person partaking in both never ever snaps out of the madness as there is no coming down anymore, any soberness is completely overshadowed but a double craving. What the article gets wrong is that the madness would much worse if we still had pure d-Meth available and not the 20% Cartel Meth (mostly Isopropylbenzylamine). So thats the "opiate crisis"  not the raze-Meth.
But there is something else happening and it is much worse IMHO and it will haunt society for times to come and it will unavoidably fall back on the rest of the users of recreational substances:  It is the Benzos which are over us, the abundance in supply and the acceptance of this family of drugs which has no recreational value and is highly addictive mentally as physically and carries the worst and endles withdrawal process, besides inducing lasting personality changes by turning longer term users into egotistic assholes. And they are creeping in everywhere. In the past they were the junkies friend used besides heroin or instead of heroin and mostly confined to the szene. Now everybody who had a cup of coffee seems to believe he has to take a strong longlasting benzo to be able to suffer the comedown. Whatever drug people take the end up taking a benzo. It is in r/researchchemicals it is on other boards, it is everywhere and they are sneaking into "normal" peoples areas too I noticed. All this whilst sailing under the flag of "RC" whilst benzos are not "RCs" (lacking any recreational value).

Back on track: Benzos and strong stimulants cause delusions and paranoia same or worse then Opiates do, Benzos are flooding in, the situation will get worse and it will be not benzos  getting the heat (as prescribable drugs they cannot be sooo bad) but all the other ones. People we are about to get royally fucked again. And we can do virtually nothing about it as the benzo zombies are squatting plain in the middle of us and they will defend the shit with claws and teeth.

This is the golden age for what we are doing but I am afraid in a few years it will be gone. But now enjoy and use the opportunities, don´t forget, connections now made, any entries as a legit customer at a legit company, all this will stay with you to be used freely forever and as an individual counts nothing but a company even a tiny one is protected under the ideology of free trade, incorporate yourself and think internationally.


makes sense?
makes no sense?
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Online jacolives

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2021, 12:44:19 PM »
“Cartel meth” for the past few years at least in the Americas is NOT mostly IPBA.  There was perhaps a large spike in its use several years ago (almost ten!), but it’s just not common anymore.  It’s just not economical.  “Cartel” would have to import massive quantities, just to export it again, OR manufacture their own - and at that point it makes more sense to just manufacture more meth.  The “cartels” are businesses after all.

I disagree about opiates increasing paranoia when used in combination with sitúelas te, if anything they probably mitigate mental crazies associated with met anfetamínico use.

I can only speak to what I’ve seen in the Americas but venzo use, while certainly IS a thing, does not even hold a candle to opiate or meth use.  Not the same ballpark even.  If the market was flooded with cheap available benzos perhaps this would change, but I’m not so sure.  They surely are very addictive and their addiction potential is high especially amongst people who already have the disease, but they just are as reinforcing as opiates. This is just what I’ve seen and experienced though things vary from place to place.  Use is rampant in certain communities.  Methadone clinics for example, are nearly filled with people who are also prescribed amphetamine, clonazepam + alprazolam, and use street meth.
Just my two cents!
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Offline aes256

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Re: strange things happen
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2021, 01:32:17 PM »
makes no sense?

the part about benzos having no recreational value made no sense  :P  they're GABAergics, of course there's recreational value, just not what you'd call recreational value, duh!
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Offline DerAlteSack

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Re: strange things happen
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2021, 06:33:20 PM »
makes no sense?

the part about benzos having no recreational value made no sense  :P  they're GABAergics, of course there's recreational value, just not what you'd call recreational value, duh!
No sense to argue this as we would have to agree on a definition of of "recreational" first and then it is still about how you feel about it and there is no judging feelings.
Time will tell, good luck!

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Offline carl

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2021, 07:18:46 PM »
The definition "RC" stands for research chemical, and not for recreational chemical though :P

E: oops 5k :o
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline carl

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2021, 08:02:26 PM »
Also, disagree on this:
I know that opiates and related compounds cause massive paranoia and delusions when used together with Meth.
It is known that morphine and co have an antipsychotic effect thats equivalent to strong neuroleptics.
Without their side effects.
But apparently, the extrapyramidal syndrom is deemed to be more suited for schizophrenics and such than being simply physically addicted without any other side effects and living a normal life else.

I read that almost twenty years ago, and it is not surprising, something medical, but no idea where it was, on- or offline.


To get back on topic:
The entire article is a documentation of, how when the price goes down, the normie drug user will not use less money on drugs.... he will use the same amount, and if the drugs cost ten times less, he will buy ten times as he would normally.
And would you trust a junkie not to keep his doses accurately down when he has ten times as much drugs?
It doesn't take long and he takes ten times as much as well, because he paid ten times less than usual.
It is of course not a sudden change, but over time, slowly(but not that slow).

And thats the entire reason for the reactions described in that article.
Tolerance and thus increasing doses, and thus, in consequence, psychosis.

They should make a rhyme for a public service announcement, like:
"Increasing doses leads to psychosis"
Or whatever :D
And supply junkies with scales that they can sell at the local pawn shop for drug money :D
But meant to weigh their doses of course :P


Addendum:
I agree on all the thoughts of DerAlteSack on benzos.
Those are horrible drugs and need to be frowned upon in the drug scene.
It turns people into monkeys.
Literally.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 08:10:26 PM by carl »
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline arkoma

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2021, 11:34:25 PM »
Quote
They should make a rhyme for a public service announcement, like:
"Increasing doses leads to psychosis"
Or whatever :D
And supply junkies with scales that they can sell at the local pawn shop for drug money :D
But meant to weigh their doses of course

In my observations, there is correlation between how large an IV dose a person does the first time, to how there "appetite" develops. Been using a scale for years, actually, and never exceed a tenth of a gram (usually less).  I've known "rush monsters" that keep doing shots for the rush, and they tend to get out there fast...............

So yeah, "Increasing doses leads to (highly possible) psychosis"
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Offline wingbatt

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2021, 11:45:44 PM »
In summary, racemic meth leads to insanity? Is that right?

Or,
P2P => racemic meth => mental asylum

Where
Pseudo/Ephedrine => d-meth => party all night long => keep sanity in tact, generally

Yes?




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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2021, 12:04:23 AM »
Quote
They should make a rhyme for a public service announcement, like:
"Increasing doses leads to psychosis"
Or whatever :D
And supply junkies with scales that they can sell at the local pawn shop for drug money :D
But meant to weigh their doses of course

In my observations, there is correlation between how large an IV dose a person does the first time, to how there "appetite" develops. Been using a scale for years, actually, and never exceed a tenth of a gram (usually less).  I've known "rush monsters" that keep doing shots for the rush, and they tend to get out there fast...............

So yeah, "Increasing doses leads to (highly possible) psychosis"

Yeah this is very true. Shoot 250 mg, come in your pants, etc… people have a tendency to chase that.  Especially when sex is in the mix which it often is.  The two sort of feed on each other and bam a couple years later she’s going psychotic at the glory hole party.
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Offline wingbatt

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2021, 03:53:14 AM »
Yeah this is very true. Shoot 250 mg, come in your pants, etc… people have a tendency to chase that.  Especially when sex is in the mix which it often is.  The two sort of feed on each other and bam a couple years later she’s going psychotic at the glory hole party.

Who doesn’t go psychotic at a glory hole party?

Offline BakingBrad

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2021, 10:15:38 AM »
I'm pretty sure they're cutting this stuff heavily with N-Isopropylbenzylamine.
As an isomer, it would show up as the same thing as meth on a GC/MS, from what I understand.
They may just be assuming it to all be Dextro because of it's crystalline structure.

My assumption:  these cops, lab technicians, and journalists are lazy and not interested in pursuing the truth.
In fact, they wish only to obscure the truth and be the liar in the spotlight.
(DON'T get me started on The Atlantic...  by way of deception shall they do war...)

Offline BakingBrad

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2021, 10:17:54 AM »
Also, both L-Meth and N-Iso have a stronger vasoconstrictive effect than D-Meth.

Offline carl

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2021, 05:10:29 PM »
In summary, racemic meth leads to insanity? Is that right?
No, cheap meth leads to insanity.
If the stuff costs ten times less, people will buy ten times as they would usual.
And use ten times as much.
Thats solely the reason why they go insane.


I think they should play the jingle for the PSA with "increasing doses leads to psychosis" on a xylophone.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline DerAlteSack

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2021, 10:21:03 PM »
In summary, racemic meth leads to insanity? Is that right?
No, cheap meth leads to insanity.
If the stuff costs ten times less, people will buy ten times as they would usual.
And use ten times as much.
Thats solely the reason why they go insane.


......
No, thats not right. Most users of meth reach a personal ceiling and from there either stay on the dose or reduce (often it is a bouncing game, reducing - back to the cailing and so on). Only a comparable small number of people get shot through on meth, more on dirty, cut stuff then on rather clean one, real clean meth is actually the least prone to cause insanity/hallucinations whilst the yellow dirt for sure does.

What is described in the article is though typical of the symptoms of a stimulant - depressive abuse combo it appears in comparable mild form already with people smoking too much strong pot and using plain amphetamine in big doses together. With Benzos and Opiates together with Methamphetamin this gets really bad.
Those people who are afflicted from this in the article are victims of so called opoid crisis who now  have to go for the cheapest substitutes available and having been pushed into illegality they naturally have learned to know and love meth. Whats left for them? Cartel meth, fentoids and masses of asscheap very potent Benzos. So they take the Benzos in amounbts which would lead usually to a blackout with all the known consequences which often enough get people into prison. To avoid the blackout they take cartel meth. And The result is what was presented.

For US media it is of course much more appealing to blame the home grown problem on foreign drug producers, a social problem on chemistry, faults of the political system on the individual as this what they do best as it expresses the american spirit.
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Offline Tsjerk

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2021, 09:33:10 AM »
In summary, racemic meth leads to insanity? Is that right?

Or,
P2P => racemic meth => mental asylum

Where
Pseudo/Ephedrine => d-meth => party all night long => keep sanity in tact, generally

Yes?

Maybe the L one keeps you up longer while not being psychoactive? Making the racemic keeping you up longer for the same effect? At least levo-amphetamine does so in comparison to the dextro variant.

But it probably mostly is dose dependant, what the fuck, these doses you guys are talking about... 250 mg IV? hotrailing grams? I have been taking 10-20 mg racemic a day for about a year now, and I'm doing 5-10 mg dexedrine now. More than enough for me 😂. Definitely keeps me sane from my ADD!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 09:43:35 AM by Tsjerk »

Offline aes256

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2021, 11:35:52 AM »
I have been taking 10-20 mg racemic a day for about a year now, and I'm doing 5-10 mg dexedrine now. More than enough for me 😂. Definitely keeps me sane from my ADD!

I'm filing this under positive drug stories :)

Glad you found a (chemical) intervention that improves your condition.
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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2021, 11:39:38 AM »
In summary, racemic meth leads to insanity? Is that right?

Or,
P2P => racemic meth => mental asylum

Where
Pseudo/Ephedrine => d-meth => party all night long => keep sanity in tact, generally

Yes?

Maybe the L one keeps you up longer while not being psychoactive? Making the racemic keeping you up longer for the same effect? At least levo-amphetamine does so in comparison to the dextro variant.

But it probably mostly is dose dependant, what the fuck, these doses you guys are talking about... 250 mg IV? hotrailing grams? I have been taking 10-20 mg racemic a day for about a year now, and I'm doing 5-10 mg dexedrine now. More than enough for me 😂. Definitely keeps me sane from my ADD!

Should be noted that the 250 mg IV dose is actually the highest one I listed.  I’ve seen people do ridiculously huge hot rails but I’d say the MAJORITY of the meth ends up blown out into the room the person is sitting in.  There is a lot of urban/rural myth and legend surrounding Crystal meth.  One of the most common is “you’re not supposed to hold it in it will ‘crystallize’ in your lungs/nose/body”.  People also just like to see how big of a cloud they can blow!
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Offline Tsjerk

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Re: Wild stories and claims about ketone meth in The Atlantic
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2021, 12:22:38 PM »

I'm filing this under positive drug stories :)

Glad you found a (chemical) intervention that improves your condition.

I never thought my crappy wired brain could be helped as much as it was helped during the last one and a half years. I got baclofen to keep me from drinking a bottle of wodka a day, some quetiapine to keep my bipolar brain from going depressed or hypomanic, and a little speed to keep my mind at rest by keeping some focus.

I went from hating most days because I felt like shit to actually liking my life and going from junior to senior in a year on a job I get up for in the morning and secretly spend time on in the weekend. Long live drugs.