Author Topic: Things to never create or consume  (Read 3013 times)

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Offline Newton2.0

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Things to never create or consume
« on: July 19, 2021, 09:20:12 AM »
There are a variety of reasons to not want to try certain things and I can think up a few reasons:
  • 1) Addiction Potential
  • 2) OD Liability -- Small margin between ED50 and LD50
  • 3) Toxicity -- (Acute/Chronic/Cumulative)
  • 4) Psychological Drawbacks -- Psychosis, Mania, Compulsion, Extreme Depression, etc.
  • 5) Environmental -- Will synthesis byproducts and waste or metabolic products be damaging to the environment in either an immediate or cumulative fashion?

I want to crowd source a list of things for which any reasonable clandestine chemist would advise extreme caution against the creation or use of. I'll go first:

Addiction: Fentanyl or its other piperidine or open-chain cousins. I know that I'd be dead in a week (most likely during work-up).

OD Liability: Another hat off to the ultra-powerful opioids. However, there are tropane analogues and a piperazine called 3C-PEP that looks like it would eviscerate anyone unfortunate enough to try it.

Toxicity: a-PVT, the thiophene analogue of a-PVP, is absolutely something to never ingest by any ROA. As far as I can tell, I am the only person who has intentionally ingested this compound and I must say it is dangerous garbage. A study found it to be remarkably cytotoxic and one can only assume that it's pyrolysis products will Vulcanize one's lungs.

Psychological Drawbacks: Natural alkaloids found in Solanaceae (Datura, Brugmansia, Belladonna, etc.) can be useful precursors, but by themselves are hellish and dangerous. Stimulants, especially the high-powered ones like cocaine, cathinones and amphetamines are not things I ever want to encounter again, simply because the risk of psychosis is so high ["That sounds like a personal problem, Newton2.0"]. I guess, know what your mind can take. Some minds are not built for speed.

Environmental: Remember to safely sequester and dispose of any and all heavy metals like nickel, lead, cadmium and mercury. And anything that could be a persistent environmental problem should probably get a workaround, no?



What are your no-nos?

« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 09:22:18 AM by Newton2.0 »
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Offline Sawdust and Honey

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2021, 09:26:06 AM »
I'd include social danger as well... meth and opioids would be there for sure. Great points, Newton.
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Offline mrtimey

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2021, 10:25:57 AM »
ive got one ive got one :)

the smell said drugs give the user, don't want to be smelling like a skunk when high now do we.

clomethiazole
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 10:28:42 AM by mrtimey »

Offline carl

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2021, 10:49:56 AM »
Funny, bro- and clomethiazole are on my list, now that I discovered my perfume supplier to carry sulfurol.

How do you know how a skunk smells though? :P
I always thought it is more like wet dog :D

The only things I wouldn't make, hmm.
Fentanyl and analogues, but I would make acetylfentanyl instead, which is weak enough for me.

MDPV and analogues, like a-PVP, they are total psychotic crap.

A potent deliriant.
However, just for the record, I would be interested in making a weak one some day.
I wouldn't want to take it though, of course.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline mathiasxx94

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2021, 11:11:15 AM »
I've been thinking about making some nbomes, seems so simple when you already have 2c-b. The therapeutic index and low dosage scares me, so will probably never make this.

Offline mrtimey

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2021, 11:12:04 AM »
id be more worried about people giving them out as acid.

as is the case with most of these PEA's dosage is king.



ive got another one but I am still looking for the candidate.

a drug that needs to be synthed using only highly energetic reagents and the reaction could blow up :)

yep when I find it I won't be doing it
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 11:14:14 AM by mrtimey »

Offline carl

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2021, 11:32:23 AM »
Yes, I agree, I would also never make amphetamine fulminate :P
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline mrtimey

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2021, 11:34:45 AM »
thanx buddy I knew if I passed the ball you would come through as always  ;D

Offline xdragon

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2021, 11:52:37 AM »
I've been thinking about making some nbomes, seems so simple when you already have 2c-b. The therapeutic index and low dosage scares me, so will probably never make this.

The NBOHs seem to be a bit safer from anecdotal experience. I wouldn't like seeing those on the streets either though. Although the NBOMes can probably be consumed in a relatively safe manner in the lower dosage range by meticulous experimenters, I'd be a bit scared of having a difficult time due to their image.

As for the explosive one, Hemetsberger time ;)
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Offline aniracetam

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2021, 12:02:07 PM »
Free radicals/intermediates that exhibit acute toxicity...ex.  PCC, MPP+. Those species immediately decimate dendrites.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 12:04:26 PM by aniracetam »

Offline Newton2.0

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2021, 08:11:24 PM »
I would be terrified specifically of an accident. It's so easy to spill stuff. I had a full 500mL flask full of GBL and DCM break on me (super glad it didn't get absorbed into my skin). Had that been a 50mL flask of NBOMe or fentanyl or even some precursor bastard ass thing, it could be death.

Oh my God, railing a line of amphetamine fulminate has got to be exciting.
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Offline carl

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2021, 08:21:06 PM »
Oh my God, railing a line of amphetamine fulminate has got to be exciting.
I think it would(considered that salt would be even possible, which I doubt) explode if you hit it with the tip of your... tube to... sniff it with... fuck, how are those called in english?
Railing tube sounds like a british name for the subway :D

Btw Newton2.0, good to have you here, you haven't made an introduction post(maybe on some day if you like to? :P), but you seem to be a valuable addition to the pack :)
You fit right in :)

If we want to take some explosive amphetamine salt, we probably have to take on smoking amphetamine picrate.... *boom* :D
Maybe amphetamine azide? But I "fear" that wouldn't be explosive, as an organic azide... or would it be, since its an ionic compound and not an organic azide?
We don't know.
And we probably will never, since the threads name is in order for explosive stimulants :P
You want the explosion to take place in your head, of course, but not literally please... only at your dopamine receptors, thats more than sufficient, not directly on your mucuous membranes, resulting in some horrible outcome... :o
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline Newton2.0

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2021, 07:57:06 AM »
We here in the good ol' US of A sometimes call it a "tooter".

Railing tube... Yeah, I think we've all see that documentary...

Thanks, Carl! It's really a fascinating topic and I can't really get enough. I often wonder if I should go back to school and learn to read and write and then learn chemistry. I feel like a wizard and there's really nothing quite like it. Even failure and frustration won't dash my hopes. I am simultaneously grateful and terrified of this hobby.

Energetics aren't my jam. I'm so high strung and anxious already that stepping in a room would cause a detonation. Couple it to something the Klapötke (sp?) team has made...well, I mean, I sure couldn't do it.

Has anyone worked with OsO4? Or anything of radiological interest? I've heard those can be nasty.
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Offline big mac

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2021, 08:09:32 PM »
I bet that dextro methamphetamine styphnate would blow either your dopamine receptors and your nose :D
But the one that I wouldn't want to take since I've got to known what is it is the mCPP. Shit that can induce headaches (phew), dysphoria and panic attacks on itself must be nasty. Not to mention inhuman mixes one could create to poison somebody  8) ::)

What's interesting, trazodone gets metabolised to this shit, in small quantity, but still.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 08:14:02 PM by big mac »

Offline Newton2.0

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2021, 09:41:21 AM »
Funny enough, I have personal experience with that compound. I purchased a gram of mCPP expecting to get a similar experience to MDMA or something of at least some recreational value.

Well, what a fucking bummer because I could've gotten 2C-I from the same place and I would have loved the fuck out of that.

Anyways, I would describe the dose I consumed as being a distinctly serotonergic version of consuming both Dayquil and Nyquil. The experience led to me being extremely hot and sweaty, produced a sort of fever-dream fugue state of the sort one gets when one is neither completely asleep nor awake. It was overall a very uncomfortable experience and I would caution against using it.

I did learn about the metabolism of trazodone, which was a drug which confirmed to me that black box suicide labels are an absolutely real threat and not statistical noise (because how could you parse out the correlation between depressed people's likelihood of suicide pre- and post-consumption, right?) Anyways, 30 mins after 100mg trazodone orally, I started to get a very frightening and deep compulsion towards something very dark. I could not shake it and it was so opposite to what I had felt moments before that I was truly afraid for my life and what I might do to myself.

I wonder to what extent mCPP is responsible for serotonergic effects? Probably pretty significant, I imagine.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 09:45:00 AM by Newton2.0 »
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Offline Newton2.0

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2021, 09:44:05 AM »
"Limited human testing" is also a label I should have paid attention to.
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Offline big mac

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2021, 10:08:49 AM »
Yeah and what's interesting it's still legal in some countries.
Couldn't they get things sorted and delegalise such shit, but instead legalise MDMA and psychedelics for example?

Offline Newton2.0

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2021, 11:45:24 AM »
Well, we can't have all of these immoral junkies and addicts surviving and polluting the gene pool, can we?

This is diverging into What SHOULD we be making/taking, but I feel that what needs to be done is taking those substances for which an extremely safe therapeutic index has been established (heroin is much safer than fentanyl when standardized and provided by trained personnel, LSD and psilocybin are impossible to kill yourself with, cannabis is gonna cure the testicular cancer that cigarettes and alcohol graced you with, etc etc) and create standards and reevaluate laws so that people can reasonably survive in a society without being branded criminals. I mean, if the therapeutic index for Tylenol is worse than LSD, and LSD is still illegal, it definitely says something.

Drug laws are a massive part of the reason why this conversation exists. Kudos for bringing up social danger which absolutely encompasses our dangerously out-of-control penal codes and prison systems. If you can avoid creating something that falls under the Analogue Act or whatever the fuck else they are calling laws these days, then that should be important...but only when considering the therapeutic index of said substances.

I have several mescaline-containing cacti...but they are all legal. Under the exact same laws, L. williamsii is illegal for possession or distribution owing to its status. Makes no fucking sense and makes me think I should have been a lawyer. Alas, I digress.
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Offline Newton2.0

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2021, 08:18:21 PM »
Has anyone seen the piperazine 3C-PEP? I'd be interested to know more about it...not to make or do because I don't think my brain can take any more horseshit, but the idea of it is pretty crazy.

It surprises me that I haven't heard about it yet in the news or whatever, because it looks really easy to make. Hopefully, it doesn't find its way onto the scene.
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Offline carl

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2021, 08:30:21 PM »
I took a pill with what later turned out to be mCPP when I was like seventeen or such.
It was horrible.
Also my pee turned red.
Added to the horror I felt of course.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline Newton2.0

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2021, 09:10:36 PM »
Sounds like another victory for prohibition! Damn!
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Offline d00d

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2021, 06:03:20 AM »
I've been thinking about making some nbomes, seems so simple when you already have 2c-b. The therapeutic index and low dosage scares me, so will probably never make this.

The NBOHs seem to be a bit safer from anecdotal experience. I wouldn't like seeing those on the streets either though. Although the NBOMes can probably be consumed in a relatively safe manner in the lower dosage range by meticulous experimenters, I'd be a bit scared of having a difficult time due to their image.

As for the explosive one, Hemetsberger time ;)

A little birdie told the hive mind that certain NBOH analogs are quite tolerable in comparison to their NBOMe cousins.  Perhaps the paranoia gripped everyone before NBOH's got a chance.  Tried tested and true by the finest of space monkeys.
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Online jacolives

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2021, 05:01:15 PM »
Not sure how to word this exactly, but I think ones motivation for producing any compound should be looked at and how these possibly could possibly play out in the future.  I am speaking about the allure of money of course.  I think there’s nothing wrong with making a buck.  If someone can make something, and there’s someone that wants to buy it - great.  I would even say that this is a good thing for the world depending on what that something is - although if that something is such a good thing for the world it would probably be better to just give it away.  But at any rate, if your mind works in a certain way it is very ease to seize upon an idea and immediately see how it could be done bigger and for cheaper and how equipment could be fabricated to do it on a very large scale.  Then you do it, succeed and receive a large amount of money as your reward.  If you’re like me, it’s not even the money but the huge fucking dopamine hit of succeeding in this endeavor that is the real reward. So why not do it again?  And then again and again and again.  It’s easy to become an addict to and a slave to this much in the same way that one becomes a slave to a drug like heroin.  Maybe this is because I’m criminal minded, I’m aware that while many are technically breaking the law not everyone is criminal minded, and gets off on “sticking it to the man”.  If you have these tendencies, I advise you to stay away from commercial production.  Especially when sources start appearing out of nowhere.  “Look guey we’ll get you everything you need!” - DON’T DO IT!  ITS A FUCKING TRAP!

Of course what would I do if someone approached me and said “hey we got this ergotamine!” ..? I don’t know that’s a hard one.
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Offline crimson_king

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2021, 06:04:24 PM »
I will mention EA-3167 and EA-2277, both of which are powerful anticholinergics that cause full blown delirium. The former has a duration of 5-10 days (source: wiki and references therin) and the latter has both been found in Iranian military stockpiles and blamed for the Moscow theatre terrorist ordeal (although now the general consensus seems to be opioid analogues). The worst part is that they were designed to be non-lethal! Not something anyone would want to make, but interesting nonetheless.

Offline carl

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2021, 06:06:12 PM »
Yeah we had those in our guess the molecule game :D

They are truly horrific compounds.

I still have to make a low potency deliriant from benzilic acid.
Just for the record.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline Mrbovinejony

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2021, 06:15:07 PM »
What deleriant is that from benzylic acid? Similar to DPH?
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Offline carl

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2021, 06:19:59 PM »
What, many deliriants are made from benzilic acid, notably BZ?
I will esterify with dimethylaminoethanol simply.

Every other deliriant is a tropic acid/ and scopine/tropinol ester.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline crimson_king

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2021, 06:59:02 PM »
Some of the phenylpropene derivatives like myristicin and elemicin are mildly anticholinergic. I think they are what's thought to be responsible for nutmeg trips.

Offline Vesp

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2021, 07:52:30 PM »
This probably makes the list if it isn't mentioned yet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylheptylpyran
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Offline carl

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2021, 07:55:52 PM »
This probably makes the list if it isn't mentioned yet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylheptylpyran
I made the olivetol for the 1,1-dimethyl analogue, and the fucking coppers took it away! :(

I would definitely make that drug.
Don't believe the wiki propaganda :D
I enjoyed the spice stuff when it still contained HU-210.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline squirreltagnew

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2021, 08:58:22 PM »
I'm surprised no one mentioned teratogens.
I mean sure, I take them on most days but I bet at least some of you would rather steer clear of such stuff.

As for amphetamine azide, I think the free hydrazoic acid problem might be worse than the explosive risks.

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Offline Vesp

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2021, 09:31:43 PM »
This probably makes the list if it isn't mentioned yet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylheptylpyran
I made the olivetol for the 1,1-dimethyl analogue, and the fucking coppers took it away! :(

I would definitely make that drug.
Don't believe the wiki propaganda :D
I enjoyed the spice stuff when it still contained HU-210.

It's the duration that freaks me out. I've had bad experiences with pot, and the idea that you might take too large of a dose and have a bad time for 2-3 days just doesn't sound like a feature in anyway.

Honestly, I think a great strategy for psychedelic drugs in general would be to lower their duration.
If there was an easy to dose shroom like experience that lasted only an hour or two, I think it would be... a big hit socially.
I suppose a limiting factor to psych use is how much free time you need for them, and newbies may be worried. A shorter duration would open more people up to more experimentation.

I wonder if there are any safe, easy to dose short duration psychedelics?
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Online jacolives

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2021, 09:40:15 PM »
This probably makes the list if it isn't mentioned yet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylheptylpyran
I made the olivetol for the 1,1-dimethyl analogue, and the fucking coppers took it away! :(

I would definitely make that drug.
Don't believe the wiki propaganda :D
I enjoyed the spice stuff when it still contained HU-210.

It's the duration that freaks me out. I've had bad experiences with pot, and the idea that you might take too large of a dose and have a bad time for 2-3 days just doesn't sound like a feature in anyway.

Honestly, I think a great strategy for psychedelic drugs in general would be to lower their duration.
If there was an easy to dose shroom like experience that lasted only an hour or two, I think it would be... a big hit socially.
I suppose a limiting factor to psych use is how much free time you need for them, and newbies may be worried. A shorter duration would open more people up to more experimentation.

I wonder if there are any safe, easy to dose short duration psychedelics?

Apparently AMT can be smoked though I can’t seem to get any info on how long this is in duration compared to taking it orally.  Don’t have my copy of Tihkal in front of me either.  2C-B is relatively  short acting in my experience.  I would think somewhere in the world of all of those different ring substituted phenethylamine as, an ethoxy instead of methoxy here or there I would think one of them would be shorter acting.  I tried a couple different NBOH compounds can’t recall which ones, but they were made from a Tweetio (as Shulgin called them), so there’s actually quite a lot to explore.

Actually I should add something to that, but I think it says in the book that the 2-ethoxy compounds in the 2C family, while weaker, were shorter in duration.  Given that the NBOH and NBOMe compounds are typically much stronger than their parent phenethylamine I would think there might be something there. Say, 2C-D-NBOH with an ethyl ether on the ring instead of methyl.  Of course it’s hard to find information out about some of these compounds despite being at one point or other available on the commercial market somewhere.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 09:45:27 PM by jacolives »
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Online timescale7017

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2021, 10:42:20 PM »
If you’re like me, it’s not even the money but the huge fucking dopamine hit of succeeding in this endeavor that is the real reward. So why not do it again?  And then again and again and again.  It’s easy to become an addict to and a slave to this much in the same way that one becomes a slave to a drug like heroin.

This, absolutely. I can say without a doubt that the synthetic pursuit of psychoactive chemicals has been the most rewarding aspect of my (admittedly short) life.

Which brings to mind Eleusis:

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Months went by with no sign of the DEA. Slowly but surely my co-conspirator convinced me to start up again. She used the very persuasive argument that since I had started manufacturing, no one would buy anything else (I was a fanatic about quality, I never cut my MDMA, and I made sure that every dose was 100-110mg for the best possible experience). It really didn\rquote t take much convincing, though, because once you start, I don't believe you can stop until you are *caught*. It is too seductive, way too seductive. Viddy well, little brothers, viddy well (c.f.- A Clockwork Orange).
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Offline Butterfly

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2021, 10:43:06 PM »
This man was told he was buying Demerol, but whoever cooked it didn't know or care that they were also creating something that can actually destroy a person more thoroughly than most chemical weapons.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l720wreghqo
Know the limitations of your knowledge and never create something you aren't certain is safe for human consumption.

Offline carl

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Re: Things to never create or consume
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2021, 08:46:08 AM »
The man who destroyed his brain cooked some reverse ester of pethidine himself and let the reaction run too hot, resulting in some dehydration to MTPT instead of esterification.
He developed a coke habit later(not surprising, with his damaged dopamine system) and died by suicide.
If he did some analysis on the stuff, even just TLC, he would have seen that his product contains something else.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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