large scale cannibanoid extraction + problems

[supernate]

ok, so i found a garbage bag full of shake in a dumpster. i went and bought a huge plastic sheet/screen to dry it out on, but theres just so much of it, i dont know where to put it. right now its in my greenhouse (i thought the heat would dry it out faster) but my buddy said that the sun would fuck the goodies. it is a good 5-6 leaves deep, and the drying is going slowly and unevenly. so i could put it in my house now (that it has stopped dripping, i had to wash it good, because it was dumpster weed) but ill need to solvent extract it too. im thinking DCM, but ill probably need a good 50L or so, maybe more, and that will be expensive. methylbenzene would be cheaper, but hard to evap that volume with its notoriously high BP. ill also need a large tub (chemically resistant of course) to do my stuff in which i dont have. ill also need to filter a large amm't of this stuff and i think im running out of time before it goes all mouldy and bad.

maybe i could extract fresh, deal with the water after it was out?

though i live in a nice resedential neighbourhood...  handling 50L of stinking, toxic chemicals might arouse some suspicion...

am i just too unequipped to handle this stuff? its already going kind of off...

any hints suggestions will be more than welcome.

N

[hCiLdOdUeDn]

May I suggest acetone as a solvent. Its cheap and it evaporates extremley quickly. If your extracting from leaves and stem then you will get alot of tar. This tar can be smoked but isnt nearly as good as hash.

[raffike]

get heptane or hexane or do supercritical with butane

[supernate]

at work there are sevral walk-in coolers that run at -20c and -117c. perhaps the whole bit could just be done real cold? to build a supercritical vessel for a goodly volume of dope...  does it have to be airtight? have to flow good? of course ill run it by TFSE im just pondering out loud ATM.

N

[catfish]

Raf-
isn't 69'C still sort of high for a bp?
Acetone's bp is not that much lower (56.2), but is way more accessable than hexane, and way, way less toxic.
2 or 3 5-10 minute soaks will not yield too much tar.
Granted, it will add some weight, but not enough to make it goopy, like if you use IPA.
SWIM had ~5 g of good crystally fresh shake, microwaved between 2 paper towels for 1 minute on 50% power at 800W, and did 2x5mL acetone extraction for !15! minutes each, filtered, pooled and evaporated, to yield about 100 mg of some potent resin. Only enough for 4 hits, but was more than enough. Caveat: it was a good strain.
Microwaves and acetone are good friends, just don't mix the two.
-catfish

[supernate]

unfortunately, the volume of dope that i am dealing with wont fit into a microwave. or a conventional oven for that matter (maybe in 5 loads or so...).

when i look at cannibanoids, they always strike me as looking quite non polar. would not a straight chain solvent be more ideal than a ketone? and alcohols: they are pretty polar too. im sure using the best solvent would mean having to use much less of it (cost factor) and it would not pull as much gunk (though i would wash the organic phase).

[catfish]

Nate-
when extracting wet plant material, there is always the problem of bulk.
You NEED to dry this stuff first.
One way would bee to put in in a burlap sack (or a cotton sheet) and put a fan blowing into the mouth of it.
The same sack or tied up sheet could then be used to filter the plant material.
Most "pliable" plastic garbage cans will resist acetone sufficiently. An inverted lid with a groove in it and a hole at one end of the groove, tilted at an angle could well serve as a funnel.
Another problem with non-butane extractions is that the solvent has a difficult time infiltrating the cellular structure if it is at all hydrated.
Also, the volume of material should be reduced by powdering.
SWIM has successfully powdered kgs of salvia by first manually grinding, then adding to a blender and shaking at minimum speeds. The cutting action is enhanced by the shaking, and higher speeds will merely burn out the motor.
CRC Handbook sez chlorophyll a+b both soluble in alcohol, ether, and ligroin. So geting more polar won't help, unless you are going to partition the solution.
But if you can't even dry the plant material, how are you going to separate the phases? Turkey basters will dissolve in most np's; in acetone they will not. But you cannot partition acetone with water, as they are miscible.
You could try to do an acetone extraction, evaporate the tone, then dissolve the residue in denatured alcohol containing a portion of water, THEN partion with an np: the alcohol should bind the wax, while the water will prevent mixing of the phases. Or it vice versa...don't throw it out till you let us know.
Try a 10 gram nano and then scale up. Worked for SWIM.
-catfish

[raffike]

acetone takes chlorophyll also, yak...

[supernate]

i like the burlap sack idea. so this is my plan:
at the moment, its all about 1/2 wet, 1/2 dry.
so: ill get a burlap sack and a fan, do the in-sack dry technique. then im gonna soak with either acetone and evap.
would methanol do for a primary soaker, if the pigments are soluble in both, which will solvate the goodies better? and after i evap the primary solvent, ill do a butane extraction of the black gunk thats left, which will be an easily workable volume. i can put the goop into a vessel, put it in a -80c fridge at my work, along with some quality butane (or maybe pentane from the chem lab, acetonitrile, DCM(which i could do at home)) and then clean that phase with the appropriate aqueous phases (which would be easier with DCM because it would last more that a few seconds as a liquid).

if the stuff was in a burlap sack, i could put it in a garbage can to soak or i could just pour it through again and again like a continous extraction.

again the question of acetone or methanol as a starting solvent. im sure that the MeOH would be less likely to dissolve the garbage can, but is it a suitable extraction solvent? also, i forget which costs less... i tried to find the site of the local solvent manufacturer but i cant remember what the name is (im at work).

[moo]

Post 198102

(lugh: "One Pot Shot", Novel Discourse)

[alacrity]

Goldie has worked with large quantity of fresh leaves before. 

Your best bet is to use screens (like window) and prop them up off the floor. run a continuous fan through them.  Goldie had about 10 window screen that Goldie built a rack for out of scrap wood.  the screens were stacked upon one another with about 3" betwixt each.  the screens were constantly rotated and each screens contents were stirred, say twice daily.  This was done in a cool dry area, cause Goldie likes to roll cigars of well cured leaves.  You can be in hot area, cause you want the water out.

Goldie uses warmed acetone to extract a dark (not green)essential oil, but recommends an extremely good ventilation system.  Goldie's brain got fucked the first time with bad ventilation and cannot add/subtract 2+ digit numbers as a result. 

Goldie's reference material states acetone does NOT extract chlorophyl, but that book is packed away so Goldie cannot immediately get the title and cite it.  Alkohol does extract chlorophyl and leaves a large green lumpy mess that chokes the smoker. 

The extracted oil is combined with some finely chopped bud to make the process easier to handle.

Since you have such a large batch, do NOT use a burlap sack, much greater chance of mould.  Goldie uses a burlap sack only when a handful of leaves are added daily.

Good luck, there is only about 1-3% thc in leaves compared to bud.  There is 3-8% thc in growing tips.  These are the little tiny ends of the stem that may have three or four sets of tiny leaves in a half inch distance.  See if you have any of those and seperate them out to cure and smoke seperately.

[catfish]

Hi all-
SWIM confirmed that 99% IPA and tetrachloroethylene will indeed partition.
It seems that the oil would reside selectively in the more np TCE.
Also note that although the TCE will form the inferior phase, the plant material will fall to the bottom and contaminate the alcohol layer with sheer volume if biojammer is correct.
I would recommend a larger volume of TCE for this process.
It also seems that since alcohol is more polar, it would be not so effective for extraction than acetone.
Also, a 2-day soak is much too long. 15 minutes in acetone is more than enough, if repeated 1 or 2 times.
As soon as the layers seperate, the extraction is complete.
-catfish

[alacrity]

acetone will extract (destructively) chlorophyll. much more so than alcohol. the dark oil is chlorophyll, which fluoreses red under blacklight -so check it.
let me reiterate: it's not necessary to dry the leaves out first.
--------

Goldie's memory may not be up to snuff.  Goldie has not done this shit in over 20 years.  Thank you for the correction.  Goldie found, through numerous applications on large amounts of dried material that acetone was the way to go.  You will never alter that experience.  If new advances have been made in the process, then please be forthcoming.  Alky pulls too much plant matter, which Goldie mistakenly termed chlorophyl, and is very harsh to the smoker.

and just for fun:
"These are the little tiny ends of the stem that may have three or four sets of tiny leaves in a half inch distance. "
oh you mean the meristem! 

Unfortunately, the people hired to clip and clear a field would not have a clue what a meristem is.  I guess, over time, Goldie learned to just elucidate.

p.s. you misspelled c-h-l-o-r-o-p-h-y-l-l. ("Alkohol does extract chlorophyl")

I misspelled alcohol too!  Unfortunately, you did not also look that word up in your spell checker, or you could have had a two-fer.

yeah, i'll bet you can't add very well.

HAhaha, I bet your a riot at a rave!  standing there all alone

I view the whole purpose of a forum is to share ideas, not belittle or demean.  I have never considered myself perfect, though I can be slightly adamant.  I shared some tried and true methods, stuff Goldie knows works through a number of years of frontline battling the WOD.  Thanks for the laugh...

[moo]

Why not believe what Lugh says about the selecitivity of hydrocarbon solvents? That is what the scientist studying cannabinoids used in extraction and they know their shit.

[supernate]

well boys and girls, it seems that nate has gotten himself into a bit of a jam this morning. he was drying the shit out in his apartment, and today it was ready to go to work on, HOWEVER, nates landlady came down and knocked on his door to say: "i can smell your weed, it stinks up the house, it is totally unacceptable to put me at risk like this, to conduct such illegal activity on my property! yada yada yada yada well have to talk later about your intentions with your suite yada yada yada yada are you a drug dealer? -no. i dont believe you, i think you have been decieving me about who you are ever since you moved in here yada yada yada yada if you are going to be handling such large quantities of drugs on my property its really not going to work out..."

well shit, looks like nate is gonna get his loser, junkie ass evicted. *sigh* time to start looking for a new apartment. right at the end of the month too. i just hope i can beg my way into getting another month there so as i can find me another place to put my glassware and my bed. whenever i run the olefin aminations i always get a hotel room so i dont smell up my neighbourhood. i suppose i should have done something about smell with this little endevour but hey: now that the shits gone down, what the fuck can i do but move on.

hahaha

this makes 2 apartments in a row that i have had to leave without a reference. i still apply for tennancy under the "this is my first apartment, im just a student of chemistry" act. (although semi-true, its always nice to have a previous tennancy experience, and that story wont stay fresh for long...)

oh well. looks like a methanol/trichloroethylene extract n' wash looks like my best option. hopefully this shit will work smooth, i dont make mush money selling rare psychadellics. people just want crank, and manufacture of that just aint cool with nate, as he has lost a very close friend to that shit.

i guess this is a little off-topic but nate just had to share his misfortune with someone who might say: aw, shit nate, that sucks!

so what has nate done with his day since his landlady flipped out at him? blasted 2x50mg n,n-dipropyltryptamine and then got all drunk this evening.

*sigh, again*
time for nate to get his life on track.

N

[catfish]

SN-
that sucks, dude!
Good luck to you in your endeavours to find a new place.
I would bee careful with tetrachlroethylene, though: chloroform, a common THC solvent, is closely related to tetrachloroethylene.
It definitely solvates the chlorophyll, but prolly also THC.
As I said in my earlier post, I cannot see how an alcohol (somewhat polar) can compete with tetrachloroethylene (not at all polar) for THC.
SWIM sez he will do research on miscibility of acetone and tetrachloroethylene.
-catfish

[supernate]

another scheme i was tossing around (figuratively)was this:
methanol (or acetone) soak and filter 3x (using a non-gavinized, non-painted steel screen (maybe cookware)), combine extracts and evap down to a dark goop. then do a NP extraction on the remenants with...
butane - hard to work with, but will give an Instant Hash
TCE - reccomended solvent by my peers
DCM - easily available, and its real volotile. will have v.similar solvation prop's to TCE, and im sure the price is more atractive.
then, once the shizzle is evaped down, distill under vacuum to obtain the largest mole fraction.

[supernate]

oh, and im not gonna pluck the meristems out of the bag-o-shake and only work with that. so they may be higher in goodies but its not like the rest of it is entirely without cannibanoids. fuck, ill even do the twigs and shit.

[catfish]

B-
IC. EXCELLENT!
SWIM was thinking on a smaller scale, using baby food jars and such.
That is definitely getting committed to SWIM's long-term memory.
How would that system operate with acetone as the primary solvent? What little TCE SWIM had was used up with the IPA/ TCE partitioning confirmation. If no answer, then SWIM will report back tomorrow, since if acetone is immiscible with TCE, then this tek would do even better, ICHO. SWIM's brakes could use some cleaning, anyways.
-catfish

[catfish]

Bio-
much appreciated, as naphtha was SWIM's alternative, and it's fully miscible with acetone.
BTW, make a friend with a paint store employee. SWIM's buddy works at S******-W******* (a small non-nationwide store)and hooks SWIM up with 'tone all the time for employee cost; plus no scrutiny. IPA or denatured the same way, through this source. Just bees sure to buy tarps enuff to cover your work area (an yo ass mo fo).
-catfish