Author Topic: morning glory, lsa extraction with erowid method.  (Read 4332 times)

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Nevermore

  • Guest
morning glory, lsa extraction with erowid method.
« on: June 16, 2003, 10:36:00 AM »
I wish to know, if is possible to substitute petrol ether with something more volatile and less toxic when following the method for LSA purification explained on erowid. I was thinking to hexane, but i would like to know which other solvents are valuable for this method.
Also i wish to know if is really effective or there are other, more perfected methods, for better separation and result.
Thanks


catfish

  • Guest
ergoline alkaloid xtals
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2003, 11:12:00 PM »
Hi all-
I would like to share a tek that SWIM told me about concerning the use of all-OTC chems to produce relatively pure ergoline alkaloid crystals.
Also herein is invited debate as to whether all chlorine compounds will affect the quality and quantity of an ergoline extract, or merely aqueous elemental chlorine.
No measurements are given, as this is SWIM's tek, and was related in passing.
A quantity of an appropriate strain of ergoline alkaloid-containing material is reduced to the consistcy of coarse flour in a coffee grinder.
The flour is then placed in a sealable glass vessel and agitated with just enough tetrachloroethylene to saturate the flour, plus a bit more, for five minutes or less.
As soon as the flour floats, the TCE is immediately separated and drawn off, to be dicarded. This process is repeated once or twice more, then the flour is filtered once with filter paper, and once with cotton wool. The residue on the wool is then rinsed with minimal TCE, and all TCE fractions dicarded safely.
The flour is then freed, with good ventilation, of TCE on paper plates. The filter paper is pressed out well to blot the TCE.
The solvent-free flour is then placed into a different jar of equal or greater volume, and covered with an equal volume of IPA, plus a bit more, and again agitated for five minutes or less. As soon as the phases separate, filter with paper, with as little IPA as possible each time. Three to five times is sufficient, 7 is wasting solvent. Final filtration is with cotton wool, and the wool is rinsed with minimal IPA and squeezed out.
All fractions are pooled, and evaporation of the solvent leaves a colored, crystalline residue suitable, after recrystallization, for microscopy projects.
The purpose of this post, in part, is to challenge the notion that all chlorine is detrimental to ergoline alkaloids, and has proven, at least to me, that this is untrue.
Also of note is the advantage of using TCE to defat. Filtration of the sludge is now relatively simple, as the flour will form the superior phase in this instance, greatly aiding in separation of the substrate.
The contention of some, including the author of the infamous "Anarchist's Cookbook", that hours or days are necessary to effect a sufficient defat and/or subsequent extraction is absurd, as proved by this tek.
It has been SWIM's experience that the separation of the phases are the indicator that the defat/extraction is complete. Not to say that one simple pull will yield 100%, but that many small extractions are obviously superior to a single large one.
SWIM also metioned, without relating details, a tek using tartaric acid and 70% aqueous acetone in place of IPA. The effectiveness of this particular process remains to be seen.
I welcome all criticism and comment on SWIM's behalf.
-catfish


LaBTop

  • Guest
Sounds interesting ,
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2003, 06:06:00 AM »
How was the bio assay?
Some other bee with a nice plot of morning glory should repeat this procedure, I'm very interested to hear the results.
I also like to take nothing for granted, that's the way to find new routes out of established pathways. LT/


Nevermore

  • Guest
That's amazin, but what is IPA?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2003, 06:14:00 AM »
That's amazin, but what is IPA?


LaBTop

  • Guest
IsoPropylAlcohol ,
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2003, 06:20:00 AM »
but why you ask, when you come up with the procedure? LT/

Edit My mistake, you didn't come up with the procedure, but catfish ! LT/


Nevermore

  • Guest
unfortunately isopropyl alcohol is something...
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2003, 06:31:00 AM »
unfortunately isopropyl alcohol is something is almost impossible to find here, i am able to find ethanol, methanol, but isopropanol..
i just didn't recognize the acronym IPA.
anyway i will try your procedure, even if i wonder what's the role of tartaric acid on the 70% Acetone.
Thanks


LaBTop

  • Guest
Well,
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2003, 06:59:00 AM »
Tartaric acid or the tartaric salts are used for stereo specific synthesis.
Just a simple remark as that, without giving any specific procedure, is a very simplistic indication to work with, but who knows? Only the daring will prevail.
You can also use ethanol, as pure as you can get, that will hopefully do it too.
Then do 2 different steps, one with ethanol, one with the tartaric acid/acetone. LT/


Nevermore

  • Guest
i can get plenty of tartaric acide, but you...
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2003, 09:32:00 AM »
i can get plenty of tartaric acide, but you are right, without a proper method is just experimenting, anyway i will first proceed extraction with pure ethanol 98% then try on the residual with acetone and tartaric, just one question, a mix of 30% water, 70% acetone, then i proceed the extraction then i add the tartaric acid (maybe for getting a precipitate?) or i add tartaric to the mix and proceed to extraction with it directly?


LaBTop

  • Guest
Well,
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2003, 10:39:00 AM »
I have to dive in the dark here also, but it could be that the 30% water part is meant to take up the reaction products between the tartaric acid and the morning glory product(s?), and the acetone part (a ketone btw) perhaps as a de-fattening agent again, or to let the tartaric salts migrate into it.
Without proper procedure instructions, it's uncertain, but still I think it could be a viable option to try at least, even with that 1 line instruction.
After all, it is meant to replace the IPA in the original instructions, so it's a wash and/or extraction step. LT/


Nevermore

  • Guest
I agree with you, when nothing is clear trying
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2003, 02:03:00 PM »
I agree with you, when nothing is clear trying is the only way of makin clear of uncertain..


GC_MS

  • Guest
TFSE
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2003, 02:09:00 PM »
Did you read this:

Post 428436

(GC_MS: "Indole alkaloids among varieties of Ipomoea etc", Tryptamine Chemistry)
?


Nevermore

  • Guest
Yep, i just wanted to steal some experience...
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2003, 02:16:00 PM »
Yep, i just wanted to steal some experience before starting to make experiments, i do now have many MGs and i dun wanna waste
::)


GC_MS

  • Guest
actually
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2003, 02:22:00 PM »
Actually, I started growing them this very day  :)

I want to test some of the older articles concerning Ipomoea alkaloid content and run some TLCs and the like. Certainly not planting them for a cheap trip!  ;D


TheHobbit

  • Guest
Nevermore: isopropyl alcohol is rubbing ...
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2003, 02:51:00 PM »
Nevermore: isopropyl alcohol is rubbing alcohol, easier to find at any drug store or grocery store than it is to find at chem supply places. Normal rubbing alcohol is like 15% IPA but most stores sell 91%, some even 99%

catfish

  • Guest
ethanol will yield smaller xtals
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2003, 05:59:00 PM »
Hi all-
ethanol will work, as most likely will methanol, alhough SWIM said methanol's toxicity put him off. Ethanol will yield smaller, finer (do not read better) xtals.
Bioassy with ~1.5 grams yielded moderate euphoria, afterimages, relaxed mood, loosening of inhibitions; duration was uncertain due to a "melting" into a restful, vivid REM session and subsequent +12h residual visual acuity and antidepressant effects upon waking.
As to the rather cryptic "70% aqueous acetone and tartaric acid", I'm sorry.
From my research and understanding of the subject matter, the tartaric acid will indeed help to resolve the isomers of the ergoline alkaloids present, or at least aid in the extraction. Pure acetone can also be used, according to SWIM, and SWIM told me that will bee the next project.
To rehash, the TCE is the washing solvent, the alcohol is the extraction solvent. I would recommend against using n-butanol or anything higher in the alcohol family to extract.
I am glad to have found a subject of interest for some of the newbees, as well as some input from the more experienced mebers.
Any bee that has more sensitive questions may PM me.
-catfish


Nevermore

  • Guest
I do not understand something, before i ...
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2003, 12:38:00 AM »
I do not understand something, before i thought the extraction method was use of npolar solvent to rinse out the nasty stuffs, then a polar solvent to dissolve what is wanted. According to this, the best two solvents in this method should be propane or hexane as npolar, and water as polar. Then, instead of obtaining the pure substance the water could be concentrated and used as is, that would leave space to tartaric acid. Now if it is needed a better solvent than water it should be possible to use acetone, still polar enuf to get the stuff out. but for what i understood, the use of any less polar solvent will led to a reduce in yeld. is that correct?


catfish

  • Guest
correct
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2003, 04:07:00 AM »
N-
SWIM's research has shown that basically, any solvent miscible to a strong degree with water will function adequately as an extraction solvent.
Propane is too volatile at atmospheric pressure to bee useful, but LP or butane might function. Hexane's bp makes it less than ideal for this purpose, as it will take days to evaporate. Same for toluene and xylenes. Ether is not to bee trifled with, and is likely too polar to bee useful.
The cyanide glycosides responsible for the side effects are np soluble.
The TCE/IPA system is used due to the volatility of the solvents. Aqueous tartaric acid may be used, if no specific concentration is desired, but heat will decompose the title compounds.
A better idea would bee to find the optimum ratio between the acetone and the tartaric acid soln. I am not sure how mant moles of tartaric acid will dissolve in 1 L of dH2O, and how much of this would actually dissolve in a given volume of acetone before precipitation would occur. Possibly, more experimentation is necessary.
-catfish


LaBTop

  • Guest
Solubility of tartaric acid
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2003, 07:16:00 AM »

http://hazard.com/msds/gn.cgi?query=tartaric+acid&whole=whole&start=0



If I remember correct you need the  D(-)-Tartaric acid (unnatural tartaric acid), 99% to get to what you want.

Thus you have to dive in the Fisher Scientific website, because that link doesn't work, Search there with that CAS nr 147-71-7 :

http://207.164.47.67/catalog/en/Default.asp?cat=ChemicalDry%2DOrganicNon%2DGraded&expand=True#ChemicalDry-OrganicNon-Graded


(put 147-71-7 in the search window),

and take f.ex. the 25 gram unit:

http://207.164.47.67/catalog/en/Default.asp?CatNo=AC137860250


(put that catno  AC137860250 in the search window if you just only clicked this link, instead of follow the procedure, Fisher doesn't link through from outside links),

Then you click the blue MSDS icon:

And find that it's Synonym is:  
D-(-)-Dihydroxysuccinic acid

and its PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES:

Physical State:   Solid
Color:   white
Freezing/Melting Point:   172 - 174 °C
Solubility in water:   1366 G/L IN WATER (22°C)
Molecular Formula:   C4H6O6
Molecular Weight:   150.09


To get to this all, I used my new sticky thread up there, "©HIVE® Laboratory Safety & Data Sheets"  and scrolled to the M section, and clicked the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) link, then typed in tartaric acid and "hit the road, man".

So in the future you all can do this too, for ANY chemicals mentioned here, I expect you to do this!
No more lazy questions, no excuses, my dear students. LT/  :)


Nevermore

  • Guest
so the tartaric decomposes the lsammines or...
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2003, 07:27:00 AM »
so the tartaric decomposes the lsammines or help just to solubilize them. And if it react with them should give out a LStartarate, probably in solution...Can't be used very diluited HCL that will react with ammines releasing LSCl, that should be more easy to absorb than tartarates? (similar to A/B)


Nevermore

  • Guest
one question, the extraction of LSA with ...
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2003, 06:13:00 AM »
one question, the extraction of LSA with tartaric solution/acetone gives out a dark blownish golden liquid with fruit smell, but the taste is horrible, i guess due to the tartaric acid that makes it burning and pins inside the mouth, i was thinking things should be smoother if i neutralize the tartaric acid in the solution, but how? should i use 2-3 ammonia drops? a drop of NaOH solution, or more easily some sodium bicarbonate solution? any idea?
Thanks