Catalytic amounts of WHITE P to boost MBRP?

[Lestat]

Swim has read that prefiring of MBRP with NaOH makes it less efficient for the e/i2/rp reaction by destroying the trace amounts of white phosphorus present in most RP, so what about the addition of small amounts of WP with the RP?

In theory, wouldn't this make the RP more efficient, so either boosting up the power of MBRP considerably? or even making lower amounts of lab grade RP nescessary?

[clandestine]

Swim don't know much about white p..  but this sounds very unsafe..   DO not dream about it..  even if someone else agreed its still seriously not a good idea.

just make a little more mbrp and save yourself some trouble.

red p does its job just fine when its cleaned... even mbrp.

[Lestat]

I agree about the toxicity of WP, something like 100mg
LD-50, but I would have thought all the WP would be absorbed in the reaction, or at least, if it didnt work, it would be converted into PI3, I am only talking about using tiny amounts of WP though.


Edit: Some input from elder bees on this one would be nice

[CharlieBigpotato]

its not the toxicity of the wp that would bee the problem, assuming it was removed from final product; its the hyper reactivity of the stuff. you'd need to keep it away from air the whole time. its possible, but would require a different approach.

[Lestat]

Maybee refluxing in the I2/RP in a very concentrated HI atmosphere after first displacing the O2 out of the reaction vessel.

Although WP could maybee bee added in after the RP/I or RP/E whichever way you prefer has started reacting thereby ensuring that it all got reacted.

Has anybee actually tried this?
Yields/and/or reduction in amount of RP needed as compared with a normal E/RP/I2 reduction would bee interesting if this has been undertaken beefore

My WP isn't QUITE as pyrophoric as you make out CBP, in my experience, small chunks of WP can be left out on a tissue paper to dry off water on a normal day w/o the blazing inferno from hell being started by the WP, I once left out a 1 cubic cm block (roughly) on the improvised bench in my lab and just watched it.

In the end I got bored of watching it smoke, so I just pulled out my matches
I certainly don't think it would bee too hard to get the WP into the rxn vessel without WP doing its pyrophoric party trick for all present

[java]

I found this comment on the WP idea......java

Post 499335 (missing)

(Organikum: "If WHITE phosphorous is used then first PI3 is", Stimulants)

[Organikum]

Thanks Java.
The information in the post linked before is valid. Preform PI3 or mix sand/finely crushed glass with the WP.

I was also told by somebody I trust and who claimed he had this done that any excess WP is converted to RP during the reaction. So workup is no problem.

Be careful, WP is NO FUN AT ALL.

[lutesium]

white phosphorus needs special handling and rxn conditions. One mistake
and you blow up. No need to mention that its a strong toxin. Not a good thing to do
Never.

[Lestat]

Org, are you sure all the WP turns to RP when heated? I know red P turns to white by heating, but I thought WP turns to the red allotrope mainy by UV irradiation?

I presume the equibrium for RP-WP via heat is strongly to the right, because on heating, a sample of purified MBRP, about a teaspoon heaped, and heated strongly enough that the test tube blew out into a bulb at the end (using a standard glass tube)

The formed WP was of a pale yellowish color, suggesting beeswax/honeycomb color, or that solid pale yellow honey, which suggests some amount of RP in there, either formed or unreacted in the first place, but certainly not very much.

[SHORTY]

Red phosphorus is one of the allotropic forms of elemental phosphorus. It is largely amorphous and is considered a polymeric version of white phosphorus.

Commercial red phosphorus is normally produced by heating the white phosphorus at a temperature range of 250 – 350 °C for 40 – 50 hours in a closed furnace (exclusion of oxygen) and at ambient pressure.
After the polymerisation, the product is milled in presence of water then treated with an alkaline solution in order to remove traces of white phosphorus and finally filtered, washed and dried. Although this special treatment is applied for removing white phosphorus in the production process, some mg/kg of white phosphorus still remain in the final product.

Specifications of commercial red phosphorus are presented in annex 1. The specifications state that the level of white phosphorus is < 200 mg/kg, but the present technology is able to reduce the white phosphorus content to < 100 mg/kg.