Author Topic: Hexamine -> methylamine improvements :)  (Read 4403 times)

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carcrash

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Hexamine -> methylamine improvements :)
« on: September 24, 2003, 05:48:00 AM »
Running this for 24 hours instead of 8 substantially increased yield of methylamine instead of ammonium chloride. Large scale 2 gallons of muratic, 1 gallon + 966 ml h2o, 2416 grams of wax coated tablets worked very well. Used a 5 gallon vessel. Reaction created no noticable smell, though the post reaction workup lets it out. Tried to use magnetic stirring but do not believe it was working. I used a hose on the open end of the condensor bubbling into dilute hcl to kill any smell.

Also if you are using hexamine wax coated tablets add 7 percent by weight to the hexamine. Naptha works wonders to clean the waxy residue out of your glass. The wax does not effect the reaction in the slightest. Add naptha, set glass on its side, rotate once an hour till all sides soak, then shake and roll till the wax comes completely off. Not fast but labor efficient. Do not try evaporating off the wax in the oven, it does not work.

For large scale non vacuum filtration a used high thread count all cotton pillow case over a small trashcan works great, especially when you are trying to leave ammonium chloride behind. If you have matching trashcans you can put one inside the other to hold the edges of the pillow case in place. Took a while to learn that coffee filters do not work for crap trying to vacuum filter seperate the meoh solution from the ammonium chloride. Even 4-5 coffee filters let thru tons of ammmonium chloride with vacuum filtration. Plus its a huge pain to filter large ammounts even with a monster buckner funnel.

You do not want vacuum filtration for seperating ammonium chloride from methylamine because then you pull too much ammonium chloride thru unless you have very fine filters. If you are trying to leave something behind you dont want coming thru vacuum filtration is not always best.

When doing the 1st run of recrystalizing you can reuse the meoh several times before it doesnt work so well. Chill in the refridgerator 1st, if you get alot of ammonium chloride refilter it before putting it in the freezer. Dont toss the used meoh, evaporate that for more methylamine.

The hexamine route is a messy pain with alot of post reaction workup but it does work. Running 24 hours I think my yields hit 70-80 percent. Will update on yields when I do another run since I burned part of the post reaction during the drying process.


abolt

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Question: Did all the Hexamine dissolve, or...
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2003, 07:05:00 AM »
Question: Did all the Hexamine dissolve, or was a layer formed on the bottom of your reaction vessel?

Running this for 24 hours instead of 8 substantially increased yield of methylamine instead of ammonium chloride

What were your Temperature readings?

Large scale 2 gallons of muratic, 1 gallon + 966 ml h2o, 2416 grams of wax coated tablets worked very well  ran for 24 hours

Why did you add water to the reaction?

Also if you are using hexamine wax coated tablets add 7 percent by weight to the hexamine.

"7% by weight" of what?

Will update on yields when I do another run since I burned part of the post reaction during the drying process.

Yes, it will be very interesting to see how your aminations go.


carcrash

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Everything disolved
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2003, 08:03:00 AM »
Everything disolved no sludge on the bottom after the reaction. I did try to swirl the flask a couple of times once the hexamine tablets started disolving to ensure all of them did. Condensor setup as if for reflux for the entire reaction. I believe running the reaction 104C or lessand condensing the formaldyde gas back into the reaction do help yields significantly especially when running this for 24 hours not 6 to 8 at 104C.

Once the reaction cools you pour out amounts to evaporate slowly. Filtering out the wax is very easy since it hardens and floats to the top once it cools. Alot stays stuck to the glassware if you do the main part of the evaporation in the glassware then let it cool. Evaporating it off slowly and venting the fumes outside did not stink up my area though I would not recommend it for an apartment dweller. Used a fish bubbler to push air in and a dryer hose to exhaust the air out. It did take a week or more to reduce it down to the point where reducing it further required filtering and teflon frying pans. A slow evaporation will keep the fumes you vent low enough noone notices.

Temperature 102 or 103C, which has worked fine on smaller scale reactions. I live at a high elevation and all of the smaller reactions ran fine despite never hitting 104C. It is definitely methylamine. Clear flakes that completely disolve in your fingers.

If using wax coated hexamine tablets add 7% to the weight of the hexamine to compensate for the weight of the wax.  For the reaction I ran the 7 percent for the wax binders is included in the weight. Hexamine fuel tablets are a source of hexamine for those of us staying below radar.

I added water because that is what the recipe from the methylamine faq on Rhodium uses. I did reduce the water because I was using 31.5% muratic acid which has more water not the 37% percent hcl that the recipe below from rhodium uses.

Methylamine Hydrochloride from Hexamethylenetetramine (HMTA)

140 grams HMTA (1 mole) was slowly dissolved in 400 ml water and 400ml 37% HCl (4 moles) was added. If the hydrochloric acid is added directly to the HMTA, a lot of it is lost, as ammonium chloride starts to separate almost immediately. The mixture was heated on a temperature controlled heating plate, and the contents was slowly distilled while the temperature slowly rose from 100°C to 109°C during 1-2 hours, during which time a lot of CO2 was evolved, and approx 75ml of formaldehyde-smelling distillate was collected. The solution was concentrated under vacuum until a lot of solids precipitated, which were filtered off, and the solution was further concentrated, filtered etc until everything was crystallized. The last crop of crystals was very hard to crystallize, and care must be taken not to burn the contents of the flask, it must not be allowed to rise over, say 75°C. The white solids were placed in 150ml warm methanol (cheaper than denatured ethanol), and was filtered. The insoluble portion was recrystallized from water, to give 40 grams of pure ammonium chloride, which looked like very large snowflakes. The methanol solution was evaporated, recrystallized from methanol and washed with acetone, to give a deliquescent crystalline mass, which was dried in a desiccator over CaCl2, to give XX grams of methylamine hydrochloride (XX moles) as a fluffy soft powder. Calculated on the two moles of amine nitrogen put into the equation, XX% became methylamine, and 37% (0.75 mole) became ammonium chloride. The net yield of methylamine is therefore XX% of the processed nitrogen.


abolt

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Thanks for the reply
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2003, 08:21:00 AM »
Roundbottom, Chromic and others have had success without the addition of water

Post 323193

(RoundBottom: "Chromic’s Methylamine.HCl", Methods Discourse)



carcrash

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acetone & meoh work obviously
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2003, 08:38:00 AM »
However water is much cheaper. Sometime I may give that a shot since it does seem like evaporating off the solvent would be alot faster. I try to stick to the safest route possible and do not care to risk an acetone explosion.

Has anyone tried a straight meoh reaction? Or meoh + water?


abolt

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Oh
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2003, 08:45:00 AM »
However water is much cheaper. Sometime I may give that a shot since it does seem like evaporating off the solvent would be alot faster.

If you take the time to read the thread you will see that MeOH and Acetone are used in the purification process, and not in the actual synthesis.

I try to stick to the safest route possible and do not care to risk an acetone explosion.

AAHHH!........that would explain the teflon frypans. :P


carcrash

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heh thanks
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2003, 08:54:00 AM »
Will give that a shot since not having to evaporate as much water would seriously shorten the post reaction workup. I misread that as using the meoh + acetone as the solvent. Have been using meoh + acetone for refining.

Actually I think I have read that adding the hexamine directly to the hcl causes the ammonium chloride to immeadiately crash out, which is not desireable for good yield. I will still probably try it though.

I will stick to what I came up with since running the reaction for 24 hours around 103-104C setup for reflux not distilation yielded far better results. 30% verses 70-80% yields.

I am also pretty certain that mainly methlyamine was produced since the reaction was never even ran at 104c which is well below the 115C for making dimethlyamine. Also my 1st attempt I had bad heat control and produced mainly dimethylamine, which results in an orange red not yellow color once the reactions cools. That orange red color I have read in other places is the result of overheating and producing mainly dimeythlamine.


RoundBottom

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fwiw
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2003, 10:33:00 AM »
SWIMs last HTMA to MeAm run was 1145.8g of powdered hexamine and got 1069.1g of white, crystally MeAm.  and the final product is not really that smelly if cleaned properly.


carcrash

  • Guest
odor free once you clean it up right
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2003, 11:26:00 AM »
Its the slow evaporation of the water that smells. While I have a great vacuum pump it wont handle running for hours on end.

Once you have good clean methylamine its pretty seriously odorless.