The Vespiary

The Hive => Methods Discourse => Topic started by: Schwa on May 27, 2003, 06:50:00 PM

Title: Saga: DOB
Post by: Schwa on May 27, 2003, 06:50:00 PM: Once I heard a couple of fella's talking chemistry in the local corporate coffee outlet. The fat guy was the cook, the tall guy the brains. I thought I over heard the fat one tell the tall one that he had taken the dingy, reddish brown sorta bromine colored minuscule amount of fine, otherwise white crystals they had produced a la shugin over a ten year period, dissolved them in warm IPA, centrifuged and retained the similarly brominly tinted supernatant IPA solution. He was not concerned that the crystals had yet reappear, felt it was due to wet IPA. The tall one suggested both carbon filtration of the supernatant and the addition of acetone to help initiate recrystalization, and then posed the following question. Once we get the goods, how do we divide them up? Given their expected yield was 10-20 mg's, apparently they had no accurate balance and they were concerned to control dosage. Then they went outside to smoke. See what you can pick up from stray conversation. I could be wrong, but it got me to thinking. Anyone care to comment on the methodology? Anyone care to describe a DOB experience?
Title: Your question is strangely formulated indeed.
Post by: Bandil on May 27, 2003, 07:54:00 PM: Your question is strangely formulated indeed. Try to clarify your question more. As i understand it, you want to know how to dose between 10-20 mg's of DOB accurately with no scale?

Well, if you can meseasure how much you have total with 10% accuracy, just dissolve the whole lot in 50% EtOH:H2O and dose with a syringe. But you need to weight it somehow. i would not dare to dose DOB without a good scale.

If you don't have one, make one. There's a nice link from rhodiums site to a microgram scale, thats rather easy to build.

-Bandil
Title: What about the
Post by: Schwa on May 27, 2003, 08:09:00 PM: idea of using acetone to assist recrystalization and the use of an activated carbon step? Anyone want to speak to the experience?
Title: In SWINM's experience, he gassed the freebase...
Post by: chemotype on May 31, 2003, 05:39:00 AM: In SWINM's experience, he gassed the freebase in ether which produced grayish, fluffy crystals which were cleaned up with acetone. As for recrystallization, maybe warm IPA (not to warm) and Et2O as cosolvent until lasting turbidity.

Bee careful of DOB. SWINM took approx 5 mg of substance, took 2-4 hours to peak. During that 2-4 hours, complete restlessness. During peak, makes acid visuals and synthesisia (spelling?) look like nothing. When coming down, expect slight body spasms. SWINM experienced then at the base of the neck where the spine is. Almost like intermitent electrical shocks. All this while you trip! Then there's the next day when you wish you could get shit done but it feels like you took 40 mg of 2cb all day, slight sleep the second night and still spacy and color enhancement into the third day. Didn't quite feel emotionally normal until 6-7 days later. The peak is better than acid but the side effects and lasting nature can be quite depressing. It is also neurotoxin? SWINM experienced depression like the days after one takes enormously large doses of MDA. Again, be safe...

respect...
Title: So it goes
Post by: Schwa on May 31, 2003, 04:20:00 PM: Meanwhile at the coffee well...They tall one was mad at the fat guy. Seems when he gassed, they did not dry the HCl well enough and tho it seemed they had hit the lotto, infact the ppt redissolved in the eoe. Apparently, the tall one had challenged the fat one to do the gassing, tho the fat guy admitted he had never done something like this and was apprehensive he would hurt himself or fuck up the project. Since the project did, in their eyes, fuck up, it should be on the tall guy, right? It seems that the tall guy again fucked up after the fat guy solved the redissolving problem though evaporation of the eoe. It does leave me curious...how much of the goods would evaporate along with the eoe. I have to assume, that like most amines, this Dob, has a vapor pressure of some sort. When he added base after the bromination step, instead of adjusting the pH with a solution, the idiot used solid NaOH. The enthalpy of solution/reaction was way too much for the delicate organic molecule and limited heat sink. Anyway, you similarly describe the body load, though more intense than what seems to have happened to the fat guy, but he definitely got the same experience you describe. Thanks for your sharing your knowlege
Title: Neither DOB nor 2C-B are neurotixins
Post by: Rhodium on June 01, 2003, 11:59:00 PM: It is also neurotoxin?

Neither DOB nor 2C-B are neurotoxins. The tiredness and depression you describe are simply due to exhaustion from being stumulated for 24h.
Title: I knew 2-cb wasn't neurotoxic but I thought...
Post by: chemotype on June 02, 2003, 01:34:00 AM: I knew 2-cb wasn't neurotoxic but I thought that haloganated amphetamines were. I wish I could endure the side effects. It's a marvelous compound, just has a hard edge to it.

respect...
Title: Neurotoxic haloamphetamines
Post by: Rhodium on June 02, 2003, 02:01:00 AM: Only 4-Chloro, 4-Bromo-, and 4-Iodoamphetamine (and the corresponding methamphetamines) has been shown to be serotonergic neurotoxins, not the 2,5-dimethoxy-4-haloamphetamines.
Title: edginess
Post by: psygn on June 02, 2003, 11:07:00 AM: chemotype: 20mg or so diazepam is wonderful for taking the edge away ;)
Title: neurotoxicity
Post by: monkey_boy on June 03, 2003, 07:06:00 AM: Isn't it possible that being stimulated for 24hrs could be neurotoxic in itself? Ca²⁺ levels would get pretty high and may cause excitotoxicity, or at least large amounts of stress on cells being stimulated that much ::)

It's a bit wishful to think that a drug that causes an intense 24hr trip isn't going to cause some sort of "changes" to your serotonergic pathways, whether it's direct or not, or at least contribute to excitotoxicity/oxidative stress/whatever. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, and not to say I wouldn't take it of course....
Title: I wonder what the opinions are of those who've
Post by: yellium on June 03, 2003, 04:33:00 PM: I wonder what the opinions are of those who've done DOB: can you say something like 'this was me before DOB' and 'after DOB', or is DOB and other long-lasting goodies just as recoverable as a drinking 250 ml of vodka, or is it something inbetween?
Title: DOB vs. dilute Ethanol
Post by: Rhodium on June 03, 2003, 09:16:00 PM: I think there is less physical 'damage' done with 2.5 mg DOB than from 250 mL Vodka, but you may certainly arrive from a strong DOB trip with a wholly different perspective on certain things you have been pondering during the trip - DOB is not only heavy-duty because of the duration, but also the intensity you are able to attain. A dosage of 10mg DOB (ingested over a few hours) ranks among the most memorable journeys I personally have undertaken.
Title: How does DOB compare to for example psilocybin
Post by: KidCurry on June 03, 2003, 10:23:00 PM: How does DOB compare to for example psilocybin and LSD in the way they have the posibility to give insight and are really mind altering? The only phenethylamine I tried was 2C-I, and this was more fun than giving/interesting.
Title: Do those insights border on the edge of ...
Post by: yellium on June 03, 2003, 10:35:00 PM: Do those insights border on the edge of schizophrenia, or are they more useful insights that would otherwise have taken much more time ('Ah! now I know why I never got laid during high school').
Title: DOB
Post by: GC_MS on June 03, 2003, 11:27:00 PM: A dosage of 10mg DOB (ingested over a few hours) ranks among the most memorable journeys I personally have undertaken.

Does this for instance mean stuff like walking in the park, listening to the birds etc, or more like sitting at home in a room full of objects yelling to be focused on?
The limited number of ppl I know IRL and who have tried psychedelic drugs on more than one occassion usually want to stay at home and enjoy things there. I personally want to wander around, and communicate with the Surroundings.
Maybe I should give DOB a try...
Title: The best thing is a house with a large garden,
Post by: yellium on June 03, 2003, 11:36:00 PM: The best thing is a house with a large garden, with no neighbours or passants. Best of both worlds :-)
Title: DOB
Post by: Rhodium on June 03, 2003, 11:41:00 PM: GC_MS: My favorite setting for DOB is at music festivals, or trance events in the wilderness. I feel music is an important element, as DOB is so synaesthetic - in my case even more so than with LSD. Being indoors is certainly possible, but unless you have a rather large house it can easily feel a little bit crowded.

yellium: As for the insights, it is pretty introspective for me - realizing what the mind is capable of, and to see connections between so many aspects of nature, humanity and science...
Title: trip
Post by: GC_MS on June 03, 2003, 11:41:00 PM: The best thing is a house with a large garden, with no neighbours or passants. Best of both worlds :-)

Hehe, true... :)

My dad has a small farm, located next to a very small nature reserve (ca 25 km^2). It is only frequented by 5 ppl a year, me excluded... It's not a special reserve in terms of biodiversity, but it is great to "see shapes". On mescaline, I was surely talking with the Spirits of the Divine Trees!
Title: side effects...
Post by: chemotype on June 05, 2003, 04:28:00 AM: Rhod, you don't notice any adverse side effects from that large of a dosage? Tremors or such? DOB is very clean in the mind. Very clear and introspective. Not as spacy as LSD but much more colorful. (I was surrounded by a dozen or so cats at one point whose fuzzy whiskers were brushing against my face as their fractal faces meowed and purred) I have no cats.

respect...
Title: dob-cats
Post by: Rhodium on June 05, 2003, 04:43:00 AM: I have no cats.

Tee-hee ;)

Yes, unfortunately there is a clearly noticable body load at higher DOB dosages (such as stiff muscles and joints), especially noticable during the latter half of the trip. It is almost mandatory to have a few joints, some GHB or whatever similar things you fancy to ease that period up somewhat. Also, to sleep unaided is practically impossible for 24h at such dosages. As it is so physically taxing, I haven't exceeded the Pihkal reccommended dosages the last few years.
Title: vascular spasms...
Post by: chemotype on June 05, 2003, 05:19:00 AM: What exactly are 'arterial vascular spasms'? I experience the stiffness also. I keep wanting to go back.
I was so scared because I hadn't slept and I went through a depressing second and third day. Diazepam would have helped. I flushed 104 mg of the stuff :P because I swore I'd never do it again. Definately have to dake a 3 day weekend for that one.

Are you sure it's not neurotoxic? I felt no emotions the third day. Completely drained. That could be attributed to what was previously stated as severe serotonin depletion due to over stimulation.

respect...
Title: should use spell check but I'm too irie...
Post by: chemotype on June 05, 2003, 05:21:00 AM: should use spell check but I'm too irie...
Title: contraction of blood vessels, reducing blood flow
Post by: Rhodium on June 05, 2003, 07:47:00 PM: See below, in one reported extreme case, the reduced blood flow from a DOB overdose (~75 mg or so) forced someone to amputate a leg... I wouldn't want to wake up in a hospital after 75 mg DOB (you are probably high for at least two days) and finding out that I've been amputated...

Vascular Spasms (http://www.vet.purdue.edu/vtdl/tmp/course_work/blood/nutshell/list_items/hemostasis_2.htm)
(http://www.vet.purdue.edu/vtdl/tmp/course_work/blood/nutshell/list_items/hemostasis_2.htm)

Vascular spasms narrow blood vessels (cause vasoconstriction) and reduce blood flow. Spasms are due to the contraction of the smooth muscle of the blood vessels. These contractions result from sympathetic nervous system stimulation and the action of serotinin. Serotinin is a powerful local vasoconstrictor substance released by blood platelets.
Title: Is that particular case confirmed at all?
Post by: KidCurry on June 05, 2003, 07:52:00 PM: Is that particular case confirmed at all? A lot of rumours are going around in the world of drugs...
Title: overdosing on DOB
Post by: Rhodium on June 05, 2003, 07:59:00 PM: I have a medical reference about someone overdosing on DOB, but at the moment I cannot remember if it was about this particular case or if he simply died... I'll get back to you.
Title: GC_MS
Post by: pHarmacist on June 05, 2003, 08:13:00 PM: Summer is upon us! For me this is going to bee the summer of psychedelic experiences. It's amazing how much imput there is while on psychedelics, even when I trip in my room (lol!). It's going to bee interesting to trip in nature, listening to the birds and observing the complexity of the nature. I allways feel grateful to Mother Nature for letting me experience a small fraction of all its beauty and intensity of my own existence if only for a moment. Psychedelics are by far the coolest and healthiest things for our minds, when used with caution and respect they deserve.

EDIT: But if you have to ask to our imbencile autorities you'll find out that there is no room for such thing in The Great Society and that we are nothing but a bunch of rufians that are about to bee thought a lesson by the hard and ready minions of The Establishment...
Title: DOB overdose
Post by: Barium on June 05, 2003, 08:14:00 PM: From PIHKAL:

This is one of the last of the experimental compounds within the phenethylamine family on which any animal toxicity studies were performed by me prior to human studies. A mouse injected with 50 mg/Kg (ip) showed considerable twitching and was irritable. Another, at 100 mg/Kg (ip), had overt shaking at 20 minutes, which evolved into persistent hyperactivity that lasted several hours. Yet another, at 125 mg/Kg (ip), lost much of her righting reflex within 15 minutes, entered into convulsions at 50 minutes, and was dead a half hour later. A fourth mouse, at 150 mg/Kg (ip), entered into spontaneous convulsions within 10 minutes, and expired in what looked like an uncomfortable death at 22 minutes following injection. What was learned? That the LD/50 was somewhere between 100 and 125 mg/Kg for the mouse. And an effective dose in man of maybe 2 mg (for an 80 Kg man) is equivalent to 25 ug/Kg. Therefore the index of safety (the therapeutic index, the lethal dose divided by the effective dose) is well over a thousand. I feel that two mice were killed without anything of value having been received in return.

Actually, it is very likely that the damaging, if not lethal, level of DOB in man is a lot lower than this ratio would imply. There was a report of a death of a young lady following the snorting of an amount of DOB so massive, there was the actual recovery of over nine milligrams of the drug from her body tissues in the post-mortem examination. It was said that she and her companion had thought that the drug they were using was MDA and, taking a dosage appropriate for this, effectively overdosed themselves. He survived, following convulsions and an extended period (several weeks) of being in a comatose state. Tragic examples have been reported that involve arterial vascular spasm. But in most overdose cases ascribed to DOB, the identity of the drug has remained unestablished.
Title: So you can expect to have cold hands and feet...
Post by: yellium on June 05, 2003, 08:22:00 PM: So you can expect to have cold hands and feet when you take DOB?
Title: I remember sweating profusely but didn't ...
Post by: chemotype on June 06, 2003, 07:53:00 AM: I remember sweating profusely but didn't notice cold hands or feet.
Title: barium, since when is DOB a phenethylamine?
Post by: madprosr on June 11, 2003, 12:33:00 AM: my bad, i see it now big R...
the amine's in a different place but the ethyl is still there.
Title: DOB and DOM has always been phenethylamines
Post by: Rhodium on June 11, 2003, 01:14:00 AM: Both DOB and DOM has always been phenethylamines (alpha-methyl-phenethylamines to be exact), and the Shulgin quote in Barium's post above comes from
Pihkal #62 (DOB) (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal062.shtml)
(http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal062.shtml).
Title: amphetamine/phenethylamine difference
Post by: Rhodium on June 12, 2003, 08:27:00 PM: The amine is also in the same place, the difference is that a methyl group is added next to the amine.