Author Topic: Acetone & Freebase Transdermal potential  (Read 1174 times)

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abolt

  • Guest
Acetone & Freebase Transdermal potential
« on: June 10, 2004, 08:52:00 AM »
I have contacted a couple of bees about the possible transdermal potential of Acetone & Freebase, as noted in this thread:

Post 408981

(yellium: "Better be glad he didn't use acetone.", Methods Discourse)


......without much luck.

Yellium seems to have split, so can any of the Bees verify this one way or the other?


7is

  • Guest
Amphetamine burns skin
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2004, 02:23:00 PM »
Aren´t most of the freebases quite strong bases? Here is a case report were a pharmacist poured some amphetamine freebase to his skin and got burns to his skin.

Skin absorption of Dexamphetamine base--a case report.
Hartvig P.
Eur J Clin Pharmacol. 1998 Nov-Dec;54(9-10):805-7.


pooky

  • Guest
?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2004, 12:36:00 AM »
This concoction has touched P's skin a few times,to be washed off pretty quickly with no overdoses,rashes,or buzz.
P just remembers  reading here somewhere that freebase doesn't become psychoactive until it is  a salt,dont know though for sure.

OcoteaCymbarum

  • Guest
Not the salt!
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2004, 01:09:00 AM »

ning

  • Guest
DMSO
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2004, 01:16:00 AM »
A much better transdermal solvent. It's used to spike military nerve gas concoctions to help them penetrate your skin better, too.

Plus, I bet it's easier to find "food grade" DMSO than it is to find the same purity of acetone....


Rhodium

  • Guest
MDMA freebase pKa = 10.38. Blood pH = 7.4.
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2004, 03:21:00 AM »
Theres no MDMA salt in your blood.

That is most certainly not true. The pKa of MDMA freebase is 10.38*, and as the pH of your blood is ~7.4 it means that just a fraction of a percent of MDMA is present as the freebase in your blood.

It doesn't matter if you ingest the hydrochloride, sulfate, tartrate or even lysergate  ;)  salt though, as the original anion does not stay associated with the amine throughout the absorption process.


* Ref: DOI:

10.1007/s00414-002-0292-0




OcoteaCymbarum

  • Guest
Thats what I tried to say
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2004, 08:29:00 PM »
I just read my post again, I see where the misinforming part comes from. You will have the salt in your blood but its not the same as the one you ingested, that what I wanted to mean. The MDMA is absorbed as the freebase, the salt is reformed once absorbed. That what I meant to say, just like you say, it doesnt matter which salt you ingestit as, it will be the same once in your blood and will only cross the bloodbrain barrier as the freeebase, not the salt.
Sorry for being misinforming, it was clear in my head what I meant.

Chimitant

  • Guest
Different feeling
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2004, 11:57:00 PM »
I know it is the freebase part that is responsible for the activity, but how comes it that a chloride salt of MDMA feels different from a phosphate all the time I tried them? I used equal(molar) amounts of freebase as dosage. Or is it just a preconditioned mind I´m having?


Rhodium

  • Guest
Placebo hydrates
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2004, 12:30:00 AM »
If you really ingested equimolar amounts, then you'll have to ascribe that to placebo effect.

One possibility still exists, and that is if one of your salts had formed a hydrate of some sort, making each crystal unit heavier - if so, then you did not ingest equimolar amounts.


7is

  • Guest
Absorption
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2004, 08:00:00 PM »

I know it is the freebase part that is responsible for the activity, but how comes it that a chloride salt of MDMA feels different from a phosphate all the time I tried them? I used equal(molar) amounts of freebase as dosage.




Differences in absorption play a significant role. Compare the effects of same drug(and salt) by oral, intranasal and IV routes for example.


OcoteaCymbarum

  • Guest
Phosphates are usually more soluble
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2004, 08:40:00 PM »
The nature of the salt influences the solubility of the active ingredient. Basic molecules will be more soluble as a salt with organic acids as with HCl.

Some drugs have an increase in solubility 1000 fold when for example as the lactate salt instead of the hydrochloride. Maybe it was final bioavailability that made the difference, but we do not know that, and so the placebo effect may also count in.

I think you may have touched an interesting point since the salt used could have an effect on the amount of mdma needed for a good trip. In the end, it would mean more doses with the same amount of freebase. Even when taking 100mg of each of the salt you dont have the same amount of freebase in.

Another trick you could use is take some DM before you take your E. Since their both metabolized by the cytochrome 2D6, this would probably increase the half-life of MDMA in your blood, therefore getting more for your money.
The lucky ones are poor metabolizer for 2D6(about 10% of the population) but there nothing you can do for that.

Absorption is also dependent on gastric emptying time, so if you eat before, you can expect a lower buzz. Maybe not because total absorption would be reduced(studies would have to be done) but if your emptying time is long, you can expect a lower peak concentration in blood since it is metabolized as its absorbed(especially first pass metabolism)

Chimitant

  • Guest
Different Salts
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2004, 12:16:00 AM »
To Rhodium: no hydrates were involved. Both salts have been checked by FTIR. The broad -OH band of water around wavelength 3200 was missing. MDMA HCl was like rock-crystal with some beautiful large pieces. The crystals were transparant with a light yellow colour. MDMA phosphate was a fine bright white powder. Both salts were recrystallized three times, using boiling acetone. Then the solvent was left alone and eventually placed in a fridge for further crystallisation. I finished with one extra cold-acetone wash.

I filled a number of gel caps with equimolar amounts of the pure compounds (equivalent to 100 mg of the HCL salt). I took them one week apart, under the same conditions (time, activities, and always with an empty stomach). In general, the HCL salt was felt quicker, was "harder" on the body, and sometimes I became queasy for a short time. Most of the time the high ended around 2.5 hours with a   smooth decrease for another 3 hours. The phosphate started much smoother, reached a lower level of intensity and the peaceful state took 2 hours longer.

I was quite amazed by this find. Since I´m not sure yet how these substances have an effect on my mind (I mean: what path do the molecules follow once ingested, how are these molecules transported to the avtive centers, and what exactly binds where). I have the information somewhere. It is just a matter of retrieving and reading.

Ocotea: you´re right when saying that 100 mg of the HCl salt is a stronger dosage compared to 100 mg phosphate salt. For this reason one should actually speak about the freebase weight when refering to the strength of a substance or pharmaceutical formulation. For the HCl salt it is a factor of 0.84 (from salt to freebase). As long as most of the tablets are made with the HCl salt it is not really a problem. However for phosphates, bromides, etc., a different factor must be used, hence different amounts of freebase.

DM=dextromethorphan ? Never tried that one...


OcoteaCymbarum

  • Guest
Yes the cough syrup
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2004, 05:25:00 PM »
Dextromethorphan is used for its antitussive properties in cough syrup.
Since its metabolized in the liver by the same cytochrome 2D6, DM and MDMA will compete for the active site.
Now I have no clue as to which binds more and is faster metabolized but Im sure that some DM will occupy the enzyme site, increasing the half-life of MDMA, to which extent is hard to predict.

 was quite amazed by this find. Since I´m not sure yet how these substances have an effect on my mind (I mean: what path do the molecules follow once ingested, how are these molecules transported to the avtive centers, and what exactly binds where). I have the information somewhere. It is just a matter of retrieving and reading


The path is the same once ingested. Once in the blood it doesnt matter which salt you take. Its a matter of solubility and absorption rate. The salt is dissolved in your stomach, the freebase is absorbed more and more as the pH of the digestive tract increases. Now on an empty stomach, the stomach empties itself much faster since it doesnt need to digest food. So it happens quickly on an empty stomach.

Once ingested, it goes to the liver where is it metabolized to a great extent by first pass metabolism. Here's where I believe DM could be useful(taking it 15-30 minutes before E, to reduce first pass metabolism).
Then from your blood it crosses the Blood Brain Barrier(BBB) where it reaches its active site at serotonin neurons. Only the mdma freebase can cross the BBB, so no matter what salt used, it doesnt change a thing as far as the actual effect on your brain.

The difference between the 2 salts can only come from solubility and therefore absorption rate and maybe bioavailability.
For its absorption, the salt has to be dissolved. With a lower solubility, the absorption will be slower. If the molecule is absorbed at a specific part of the intestine, then the bioavailability could also be reduced. I dont think its the case here, so its probably just absorption rate due to solubility.

With a slower absorption rate, a smoother, longer lasting buzz since the peak concentration in blood is lower and the absorption longer.

What you describe really makes sense. I know HCl salt is fast around 15 minutes on en empty stomach for me. So maybe its just that the phosphate salt is less soluble under physiologic conditions then the hydrochloride salt.

Chimitant

  • Guest
Thanks for clarification.
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2004, 12:55:00 AM »
Thanks for clarification. The speed at which the salt will dissolve determines the rate of release of freebase into the blood stream. I will try to confirm this by checking the solubility of both salts in an acidic solution. I expect them to be high  :) .

The salt is dissolved in your stomach, the freebase is absorbed more and more as the pH of the digestive tract increases.

Is absorbed by what? Do you have more info on that?


Rhodium

  • Guest
The great wall
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2004, 03:22:00 PM »
Is absorbed by what?

The intestinal wall of course.