Author Topic: Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try  (Read 2303 times)

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dwarfer

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Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try
« on: August 18, 2000, 09:12:00 PM »
TO: Osmium or other head-thumper

FROM: dwarfer

RE: NEXT bitchin’ technique  ????????

Here’s my next gambit for your review and debunking if needed.

Air is blown through aqueous, 30%.

The air and entrained NH3/H2O goes into a DRYING TUBE (and more)

filled with dry NaOH:

The transit of which absorbs the water and releases the NH3

Which THEN goes through the super cooler and condensate collector:

The exit from the condensate collector is RE FED into the air pump for recycling if needed. .

Whaddaya think??


Dwarfer

Advantages unless i missed an obvious item which is definitely possible:

No fumes

Self acting : turn it on and come back a few hours later.

Should work even with 3%, although it would take a lot of NaOH.

THANKS

obituary

  • Guest
Re: Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2000, 08:14:00 AM »
the general scheme sounds workable, but how much drying material would you need to ensure 100% absorption of the H2O vapors? why not just set up an ammonia generator from ammonium carbonate/heat?

dwarfer

  • Guest
Re: Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2000, 02:07:00 AM »
50 lb bags of essentially naOH are available for $60.

I figger what I'm trying to do would gobble up $$$$ of dryrite.

(Plus I wanna prove something to whats his name??  Oh yeah OSMOID the GREAT.[secret leader of the hive...} :) )

However, I'm going to try to freeze the water out of vapour phase in a dry ice cold tube first: this one will be my next attempt at a closed system recycle

Air pumps are under $10 from an aquarium, and  should work for this low vol applicaiton.

obituary

  • Guest
Re: Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2000, 08:44:00 AM »
so you're just looking at producing maybe a couple hundred ml's to a liter at a time?    and the whole unit would take up how much space?  a cubic yard max?

dwarfer

  • Guest
Re: Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2000, 09:24:00 AM »
yeb.
Maybe 1/2 cu yrd at the most: lots less space than the fertilizer deal: but I ain't crowing till the chickens come home..... (For a welcome change...)

Osmium

  • Guest
Re: Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2000, 04:40:00 PM »
Dwarfer suXxx

Solubility of NH3 in water is (as usual) temp dependend. So when you try to freeze out the water you will condense stronger NH3 solution than before, but the whole damn point is you still have shitloads of water in it.

What's wrong with fertilizer? Instead of pondering non-working ideas you could have produced gallons of cheap NH3 by now. But hey, I undersatnd, why invest a few bucks in fertilizer when you can spend thousands in cooling systems, circulation pumps etc  ;)

obituary

  • Guest
Re: Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2000, 03:41:00 AM »
meth makes you want to do things you normally wouldn't- like counting the number of strands in 10 square feet of shag carpeting.

foxy2

  • Guest
Re: Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2000, 09:56:00 AM »
Dwarfer
Your posts writeing is a bit ..............

Ill be a nice bee, but man my eyes hurt

Jetson

  • Guest
Re: Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2000, 05:43:00 PM »
foxy2, i thought it was just me.  good posts but they make my eyes bug out :o ...  no offense....


born cross-eyed.... :P

dwarfer

  • Guest
Re: Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2000, 12:30:00 AM »
?? i SHOULD CHECK IF THERE IS A WAY TO oops
god DAMN that caps lock
increse the font size: I find the "non bold" really hard to read. WEELL not "really hard"

but the bold is better, and being a colored guy myself, I thought it might match my colorful self??? or something.

================

Osmium comes by and thunks me on the head, points and laughs, makes a comment or two and then comes back and amends his comments:

I understand: you can't ALWAYS be right when you are pontificating off the cuff:

AND,

despite his onery ways and masterful way with the quick and telling insult, he always leaves a little mard of truth buried in the LARGE pile of offal he leaves behind.

Kinda like the needle in a haystack: but at least THERE you could use a magnet: with HIS stuff you need a pitchfork, and a self contained breathing mask.

BUT if you wanna find the mards, the digging has to be done.

So Osmoidium accurately says that just because there is a signifcant  differential between the vapor pressures and volatility of ammonia and water, that you can't have them both in a flask, and like SUCK on it and have the ammonia all come off before the water does.

The two molecules hold hands: ionically and maybe Van der Waals forces if my memory of such is still working after lo these many years.

You could probably go into a freezer and mix together 50/50 % ammonia /water and have the solution stay stable more or less when it was opened.

But 30% ammonia is the max (approx) you can get at normal temperatures. 

HMM: Looks like the hotter the ammonia/water solution is the less ammonia it will hold.  HYPOTHESIS ONE


A stable mixture of ammonia/water, when heated to say 80 C will be found to have a lower concentration of ammonia in it after you cool it down.

At that temperature an equilibrium is formed and the water and ammonia will be driven off at the same rate. 

HOWEVER, and this is the key hypothesis to my plan: in VAPOUR phase, the molecules are relatively WAY FAR APART:

they have a greater chance of being operated on separately.

SO:

You bubble air while you slowly warm the aquous:

the vapour travels into  a 30 meter long hose a little over 1 1/4 CM in diameter, having a volume of about 12,000CM^3 , and a surface area of about 2300 CM^2.

The impetus through this hose from the warming basin is an $8 aquarium air pump pushing an astounding 1200 CC per minute at an amazing 1.5 PSI. (Thus the vapour will spend a liesurely 10 minutes traversing the tube......)

The hose is coiled in a 5 gal bucket as previously described.

The bucket is filled with dry ice and alcohol, or colemans, or whatever.

The excited and relatively distant molecules, which were so close together that they ruined each others personality in the liquid phase, are now dancing more or less totheir own harmonics.

And the ice looking at those COLD walls, decides to tke up semi permanent crystal residency thereupon.

The ammonia sees the water as a wimpy self indulgent non ambitious lazy cold intolerant species< and trucks on UP the spiral coil looking for some REAL cold spots before taking a break.

Based on my experience with the great fertilizer experiment, I'll not soon revisit that boring hard work technique if this one works.

So if you clog up your ice maker line in the first ten feet:(rendering it inoperative) you shut off your pump, open the connection at the top, and dump in some warm or hot alcohol and collect it AND the melted ice water at the bottom.

By the way, if you measure the alcohol charges, and the combined exit fluids, you can infer what the concentration of the Nh3 in the condenser is. (THis assumes that mighty little of the NH3 gets entrained in the freezing ice. )

==========

The SECOND half of the condenser you may recall winds DOWNWARD in IT's bucket: (ALSO dry ice and alcohol surrounded)

the 1/4 " hose isabout ??110 t0 130 feet in this section.

It discharges into an ehrlinmyer with a starting  charge of maybe 10CC alcohol. 

The end of the hose should be sealed off, and the last 6" or so ought to be carefully multi-punctured with a hot needl to make numerous small holes for the NH3 gas to exit: The SMALL bubbles will be more efffectively cooled.....

Any selfish "better-than"  hot rod smart aleck ammoniacal molecules that refuse to do the right thing and condense into a liquid find themselves REPLUMBED back intothe ENTRANCE  side of the air pump where they have to rePEAT the process again: by such discipline we expect the NH3 to be Very well behaved. Nothing like being forced to go around in circles  interminably to change your attitude.

(By the way, the air pumps I saw and bought were NOT inclusive of points and electical sparks: just a magnet on the end of an oscillating rod which depreses the diaphram: thus though it is not UL registered for expolive atmospheres, it will not likely be party to an explosion. )

(By the DOUBLE way, the little air pumps only have an OUT LINE built in:

Therefor you have to ENTOMB them in your favorite piece of you wifes plastic food storage ware, and SEAL the pump INSIDE: and plumb a RETURN line into the Tupperware...

(YEAH YEAH YEAH you have to cut a weensie hole for the electrical cod too: so what's the bigggee?)

===========

So you see that the inestimable Osmoid left this little terd of an idea when last he came to thump my head and point and laugh.

Despite his despicable demeanor:

Despite his demeaning dialogues

Despite his rude finger pointing and laughing and making fun of my nose:

Underneath: he's just really a nice guy and I know he REALLY loves me too.

Huh, Os??

dwarfer.



dwarfer

  • Guest
Re: Aqueous to Anhydrous: next try
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2000, 12:50:00 AM »
(from <snif> Osmoidium)      Dwarfer suXxx [endearing, ain't it??]

Solubility of NH3 in water is (as usual) temp dependend. So when you try to freeze out the water you will condense stronger NH3 solution than before, but the whole damn point is you still have shitloads of water in it.

Osmium.

=====================

<genuflect to the "secret leader of the hive.">   :)

I believe that you may be incorrect in your assumption here:

Although you are right in the freezing of the water out of a liquid mixture of the two materials, i believe in a mixed vapour phase for both, that the seed crystals will be ice on the wall of the cold pipe: and that the growing crystals of ice will tend to EXCLUDE  NH3, which has no interest anyway at those sunny temperatures around zero C.

So by time the wafting materials have spent 10 minutes at minus ??60 or so, most of the ice will have frizz, I predict: and the NH3 gets to spend another downward spiral moving faster but close to the walls of the similarly cooled 40 meter long 1/4 inch hose, actually a LITTLE cooler because the freezing of the ice was warming things up back there in the larger tube......

So if you make it BUBBLE through cold sub-liquifaction temperature liquids,  (alcohol) I predict that a good number of the bubbles WILL collapse, and prepare to become good church going members of the liquid Church of the Blue Light.

==========

SAY: do you suppose we could get her loveliness, the Princess  of Stoni, to give a carnal disgusting maybe illegal in some states vulgar messy and lewd sexual favor to the winner of this "I'm right and you are FUCKING wrong" dialogue??????

Now THAT would be something to get ExCitEd about.

<<<Nose getting bigggggg


dwarfer