Author Topic: Ordering laboratory equiptment legally..  (Read 1600 times)

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scram

  • Guest
Yeah, of course if you order from EM science...
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2003, 01:29:00 AM »
If you order from EM science or some fat cat like that your going to not slip by. In america its called a "cash sale" when placed on cc. The po box states M/C or Visa. I'm talking about True name/address and ship to address. As I said the mindset that I had is that why would I order chems and glassware on my own credit card to my own apartment address in my own name if I'm doing anything illegal. I DON'T SUGGEST THIS. I wouldn't do this now. Of course it was ordered over a few months. I've even had custom blown glass ordered this way. No problem. If you are not a student I would be careful about doing anything in your own name, especially if you have a criminal background. Swim has been lucky to never have any such incidents. I think If I did the same shit today I would be in jail. However, back then I knew or just felt it wasn't hot enough yet to be scrutinized. There was a few occasions where they specifically asked what a certain article is being used for and they seemed to cast doubt on swims intentions. Swim still went through with the order and pushed those ideas out of the conversation. VxR once refused a sep funnel based on it's claimed "regulatory use." But they are stupid to order from anyway. Too big usually brings a blip on the radar screen.

Prince_Charles

  • Guest
VAT Registration not relevant
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2003, 01:48:00 AM »
Whether S Aldrich have a VAT field on their form or not, I doubt they will sell to a private individual in europe.

It is of no concern to the supplier whether you are VAT registered or not (being VAT registered just means you can offset VAT paid against VAT charged on your quarterly VAT bill). More likely is that the supplier might want your company number to verify it is bona fide. In the UK they can check electronically with Companies House - see who the directors are and what your annual turnover is.


yellium

  • Guest
scram: I'm replying to an older post of you:...
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2003, 10:27:00 PM »
scram: I'm replying to an older post of you: what  makes you believe 'they' can't look up your ordering history 2 or 5 years ago?

stratosphere

  • Guest
i can't imagine that suppliers who cater to...
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2003, 08:09:00 AM »
i can't imagine that suppliers who cater to amuteur scientists etc are quick to notify the police every time they sell something.
 while most suppliers of this type, do say that there sales records are open to law enforcement, how much effort does the fbi, dea etc really put into collecting these records and putting them into a centralized database where suspicsious patterns could be detected?
and even if they do, what would consititute them wanting further investigation?
i mean if you bought a few flasks, 100g KI, a couple liters of DCM and some other garden variety things over the last year are they really going to commit the time to further investigate you?

and say they do, id assume they need a warrant to review your financial records, unless there is some cozy "open book" deal worked out between cc companies and the gov, but that should be discussed in your cc's privacy policy.

but say they do look at your cc records, would they do it by hand or by computer, i would imagine unless your really under there scrutiny they would not have the manpower to carefully pick through al your records, and for instance lets say you bought some aromatic oil from hippy dippy farms, i would imagine the cc records would just say the date, amount and who was the purchase to, and wouldn't a computer search just overlook a $50 purchase to hippy dippy farms?

how long do banks, and cc companies have to save detailed documentation of your tranactions?
 i mean does the bank really have to save on file information about every single check written by every single customer for the last 5 years or something?

yellium

  • Guest
how long do banks, and cc companies have to...
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2003, 02:19:00 PM »

how long do banks, and cc companies have to save detailed documentation of your tranactions?


Stop being naive, and start thinking the other way round.

Take a look at dejagoogle. Do you believe those people posting in the mid-eighties had any reason to assume that their posts would still be readable in the 21'th century?
 
What makes you think that banks have an 'obligation' to throw away their records after 5 years of usage? Sure, they might not be accessible for you. But they're not 'gone'. Especially not with hard disks being as cheap as they are now. 


i mean if you bought a few flasks, 100g KI, a couple liters of DCM and some other garden variety things over the last year are they really going to commit the time to further investigate you?


If you are a DEA officer with a too-good track record on forfeitures (that is, you've put all those meth cooks in jail and taken their belongings) you can find yourself in the unfortunate situation that you're out of meth cooks. You have two options: fire some of your men, or start investigating small fish. You happen to have some logs of credit card transactions...

stratosphere

  • Guest
im not sure it is naive to think that cc coms...
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2003, 11:25:00 PM »
im not sure it is naive to think that cc coms and banks would eventually dispose of records, not that they are in any way obligated to, in fact im sure the opposite is true, that they are required to save them for a minumum period, but my reason for believing they don't save every record forever is that data storage costs money.

and as for going after little fish, your probobly right, because for the dea/fbi, any drug bust, especially a drug lab bust is treated as a huge spectacle.

although i am still curious as to the legal proticol followed to investigate a persons financial records, i would assume that they would need some sort of warrant, and don't just have open access to cc databases.

Mercury

  • Guest
Some thoughts...
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2003, 04:18:00 AM »
First of all, banks will most likely NEVER dispose of financial data simply because it is too valuable to destroy, and like someone else said in this post, digital data storage is very cheap these days.

One must wonder how the DEA/FBI analyze laboratory and chemical purchases to make the decision of whether or not to investigate the purchase further. Let's be realistic for a moment. The authorities simply do not have the resources and manpower to fully-investigate every single purchase since there are 1000's of order occuring every week. So, their computer system must automatically scan all purchases submitted to them and extract suspicious orders via predefined criteria. An order, for example, paid with a money order and not sent to an institution (university or legal laboratory) would most likely be red-flagged for further analysis as opposed to an order that was paid by credit card and send to an institution. You are living in the stone age if you think it is done any different.

gruns

  • Guest
Social Engineering 101
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2003, 07:18:00 AM »
If a company gives you shit about using a money order, if it's a small order you can just tell them that your research project doesn't have the time to wait for the dumbfucks in mgmt to authorize your order, it takes those lazy bastards WEEKS, you'd rather get to work and let them do it at their own pace. 

Although, usually it's done the other way around, but they don't know that.


Osmium

  • Guest
> although i am still curious as to the...
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2003, 09:37:00 AM »
> although i am still curious as to the legal proticol followed to investigate a
> persons financial records, i would assume that they would need some sort of
> warrant, and don't just have open access to cc databases.

Ever heard of the Patriot Act? No warrant needed anymore.


gruns

  • Guest
Not only that...
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2003, 05:44:00 PM »

Post 452089 (missing)

(Osmium: "The MATRIX is real!", The Couch)


This is why I do not suggest getting anything weird sent to a residential address.


Unless it's from another country.

"Git'm Elmer! He's tryin' ta all-ter hiyus cawnshusnuss!"


Unobtainium

  • Guest
Most financial institutions maintain records...
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2003, 06:57:00 AM »
Most financial institutions maintain records for 7 years. Whether it is a legal requirement or not, I don't know, but it is the de facto standard and probably somehow related to banckruptcy law or most financial crime statutory limits.

The reason for not leaving a paper trail is not because the the DEA just randomly goes through credit card receipts looking for suspecious purchases. It is because if you ever do anything that puts you under inverstigation, the first thing they are going to do is go through your financial records. 5 years of glassware receipts in your name isn't going to look very good compounded with whatever evidence they already had against you. All you're doing is giving them more of exactly what they need.


i would assume that they would need some sort of warrant, and don't just have open access to cc databases.




And you think that the need for a warrant will somehow impede the DEA? The DEA can and will perform illegal searches at the drop of a hat. They don't care if its in admissable in court because it will provide them with leads to much stronger evidence.




Chaos

  • Guest
Re: I doubt this would ever work in Europe.
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2004, 05:19:00 AM »

I doubt this would ever work in Europe. According to the law chemsuppliers cannot sell their products to individuals, unless of course you have your own business and genuine VAT number. The moment you don't have a company you are already suspicious. Of course a fake company name and business cards won't do any good without a valid VAT-number. I don't think VAT-numbers can be faked, or it will be noticed soon. I don't think that credit card orders are common practice here and hence suspicous.




This is not like this in all europe.

In Portugal (where i live) and Spain (and some other countries) you can buy all the glassware you need no problems, everyone will sell it
for chems, you might have a problem, since those are only sold to companies (or, if you happened to have someone that trusts you in a chem distributer) you can have anything you want (except what american call class I scheduled precursors)and all is bought legally (vat and all, if i want it, for tax reductions, etc)

My Friend told me those Class I things that can't be bought
i think there were only 5 or 6
i just remember
Lysergic acid
Safrole
Iso Safrole
Piperonal
that was all the he mentioned that raised flags (and he was not sure about the lysergic acid)

I bought 2 Kgs of anthanilic acid 1.5 years ago and still no one knocked at my door
(i used it to make some indigo, actually, but it was a test to see if it could be bought or not)

Another things around these parts is the prices
most of the reagents wich I buy come from Merck, or Acros, or Fischer, or aldritch (big companies) and they charge a bit too much, for a simple student

The word here is : make some friends in the local chem supplier ;)

It's worth it and you don't have to do MacGyverisms on OTC stuff




Bwiti

  • Guest
If You..
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2004, 12:26:00 PM »
If you can only find a fucking U.S. Co. that'll sell you chems, then thank them kindly and give 'em your credit card #, and piss off. As far as supply goes, times are fucking rough in the U.S.. It's not just the word on the street, peoples from all walks of life are telling me that it's hopeless.. What the fuck are you gonna do?! Plant false hope in these young soldiers?! If so, then you are disgusting!!


JohnGault

  • Guest
Money Orders in the US
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2004, 04:54:00 PM »
As of 10/1/03 whenever you buy a money order in the US you must provide ID. Part of the Patriot Act I guess.

JG

elfspice

  • Guest
my 2 cents
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2004, 11:58:00 AM »
seems to me like the united states SUCKS... ahem...

anyways, i think the best way to get glassware is to hook up with some 3rd year or postgrad chem students and find the local glass blowing guru and bypass all the bullshit. And make your chems from otc materials always, never buy anything special.

And really look into alternatives. sometimes pyrex isn't required, copper, stainless steel, silver, brass, pvc, hdpe, polypropylene... for your basic solvent recovery purposes, one can build something completely of off the shelf stuff. I recently found an engine gasket sealant which is rated to 150 degrees and resistant to water, steam, ethylene glycol, petrol and oil, and all the way down to -40 degrees... seemed to me a perfect way to make a cheap compounded cork stopper suitable for use in distilling xylene and toluene, and preventing it from falling apart from alcohol distillations... and soldering copper pipes is easy, just remember to clean it well and heat the pipe until the whole thing is smoking n shit, before putting the solder on... the solder is not cheap.

Also, some basic things can be substituted for certain things - for example, a reflux condenser could be replaced with glass tubing, a long glass tube will function as an air condenser just fine, so long as it's clamped to stay upright. PVC tubing (not silicone) is resistant to aromatics at room temperature... Aquarium heaters usually contain several thin pyrex tubes and are encased in a usually fairly large test tube... be careful pulling the thing apart as they use quite thin wall glass (of course)... and there's often quite a length of coiled nichrome wire in the middle of it as well, and possibly the thermostatic switch circuit could be turned into something else (the temperature sensor might be useful at least...)

All kitchenware made of glass and designed to handle boiling water being thrown into it is made of pyrex, and can be used directly on solid hotplate elements so long as you put the glass onto the element while it's cold and let it warm slowly (just to avoid the possibility of thermal stress making a mess of your lab bench... or starting a fire)

Ceramics can be used in situations where a lot of heat is involved too, and these things can even be made at home (and i'm sure you'll find other uses for the kiln)

Alcohol is an almost universally applicable extraction solvent for plant materials and can be produced with a home brewing kit and a home-made fractional still... With sulphuric acid you can turn this (plus acetic acid) into ethyl acetate as well...

...

when you start to look at the things around you, you will start to realise that so many useful things were right under your nose.

I still want a couple of metres of various different sizes of tygon tubing though, that stuff rocks, silicone and vinyl tubing just don't cut it.