Author Topic: Whazzup with Big Orange and HCl?  (Read 3620 times)

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Argox

  • Guest
Whazzup with Big Orange and HCl?
« on: March 25, 2002, 11:52:00 PM »
No fucking muriatic acid in big orange hardware store in Canada as of last month, employees cite internal memo stating discontinuation.  Just local store or nationwide?

WOD strikes again?



In the port of Amsterdam, there's a sailor who sings
Of the dreams that he brings...

pickler

  • Guest
hardware store
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2002, 11:55:00 PM »
Swim had the same problem about a month or two ago in he states. Went to get some and nothing. The guy said that something was wrong with the containers and they recalled all of them. Two weeks later he went to another home improvement store and found some. It was only 20%hcl though.

We'll soon find out if I'm a chemist or not!

Jonah

  • Guest
word, pickler. SWIM has been working with 20% hcl ...
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2002, 03:51:00 AM »
word, pickler.

SWIM has been working with 20% hcl out of the white jug himself.

fuck, it makes me boil.
measure it out to react accordingly.

-j.

notfman

  • Guest
condense it
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2002, 05:43:00 AM »
You can condense it by boiling it down (outside).

It forms an azeotrope at about 30%.



¿Qué te parece? so...waddaya think?

Chromic

  • Guest
Crappy Tire
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2002, 06:22:00 AM »
31.45% HCl can still be found at Crappy Tire. Get a gallon or two... it'll should last you a long, long time.

paranoid

  • Guest
pool stores
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2002, 06:38:00 AM »
Also found in almost any pool store as well.  Not exactly sure of concentration though.

Fully_Auto

  • Guest
check again
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2002, 05:54:00 PM »
My hardware store has HCl in a few places, the pool area and in the paint section for cleaning concrete.

The Ultimate Weapon Can't be controlled, banned or confiscated. Your weapon's your mind.

ChemicalSolution

  • Guest
umm..
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2002, 02:36:00 AM »
You can't concentrate muratic (hydrochloric) acid by boiling it down.

Gases (such as HCl, which dissolved in water is what makes muriatic acid) are less soluble in solution when heated (the opposite of solids), which means that the gas (HCl) will be driven off resulting in a weaker acid.

Battery acid (sulfuric acid) is made of H2SO4 (mixed with water), which is a liquid with a high boiling point when pure, can be concentrated in this manner because the water will boil away before (at a lower temperature) than the H2SO4.

What you were thinking of, notfman, was distilling weak HCl acid and collecting the distillate with cold water in the condensor, because the vapor that comes off when heated is going to be higher in HCl concentration than the original acid at the beginning of the distillation.


The reason why you cannot concentrate 20% HCL by boiling it down is b/c it forms a maximum boiling point azeotrope that is 20%HCl.  This means that if you had 10% hcl, and boiled it, it would concentrate in the flask until 20% HCL is obtained..  So, WATER will distill first.  SWIM knows it sounds funny that water will be removed from a weaker HCl solution when distilled before the gas. 

If you reduce the pressure, the concentration of HCl in the azeotrope will increase-- but not much.. at 50mm, the azeotrope is 23%HcL.    

Also, about the boiling of battery acid---  Are you sure that water can be removed this way???  SWIM was under the impression that the max-boiling azeotrope distills at 300-something leaving the hydronium/HSO4 ions behind in the flask...

xoxo
Julia
  



micro

  • Guest
Big Orange
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2002, 03:01:00 AM »
If the Big Orange up there is doing the same as the Big Orange down here then you won't be able to get a single gallon anymore.They will replace that with two-packs of HCL.At least that is what happened down this way and that was a good three months ago.

ChemicalSolution

  • Guest
Madmax
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2002, 04:23:00 AM »
Has your SWIM ever made 48% HBr before?  H2SO4 is added to a solution of KBr, then the KHSO4 is removed and the liquid is distilled.  At 100C, water comes over.  At 126C, 48% HBr distills.  This is because HBr, HCl, HI, etc form MAXIMUM boiling azeotropes.

You are right about gasses being boiled out of water... Methylamine, NH3, etc will all boil out of water.. But not strong acids--- there is an attraction between
 strong acids and water.  As a result, the boiling point of the acid/water solution is higher than either component (definition of maximum boiling point azeotrope).

xoxo
Julia

ChemicalSolution

  • Guest
azeo-freakin-tropes
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2002, 05:29:00 AM »
Make some 48% HBr.. It's pretty useful stuff and 100% OTC...

When you distill this, pure water distills at 100c.  Then, the temperature suddenly rises to 126C as 48% HBr distills.

If you take your 48% HBr and add some water to it then distill again, pure water will distill until the contents in the distillation flask reach the % composition of the azeotrope, and, again, 48% HBr distills.. 

SWIM used to wonder why "48%" HBr is sold.. 48%... What an arbitrary number...  Now she knows.

Argox

  • Guest
no help
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2002, 03:20:00 PM »
hate to be a goof,

but none of you anserwed my question.

HCl hard to get, or what?

In the port of Amsterdam, there's a sailor who sings
Of the dreams that he brings...

Flip

  • Guest
Solubility curves
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2002, 11:19:00 PM »
MaDMAx is right, and ChemicalSolution is overlooking the basic principles of gas solubility.  As the temperature rises the gas is LESS soluble in the solution.  That's like high school chemistry! CS_, you seem to be a knowledgable fellow, what's your explanation of how a liquid will have a lower boiling point than a gas?  When muriatic is boiled it gives off gas damnit!   It is quite possible that HCl will come over with water at high temperatures, but not any kind of concentrated solution.  What would come over would be the amount of HCl soluble at THAT temperature.  This is not a feasable method for concentrating a solution.

EDIT: Think outside the box people, instead of less water, how about MORE HCl gas?

_flip_@hushmail.com

Flip

  • Guest
Who Cares?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2002, 11:36:00 PM »
And Argox, in answer to your question, who cares if they take it off the shelves?  As long as we got water, sulphuric, and salt, a 38% concentration of HCl acid can be obtained by bubbling HCl gas into dH2O.  Be creative, don't let big brother hold you down.

_flip_@hushmail.com

Vibrating_Lights

  • Guest
RE:FLIP And Argox, in answer to your question, ...
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2002, 05:30:00 PM »
RE:FLIP
And Argox, in answer to your question, who cares if they take it off the shelves?  As long as we got water, sulphuric, and salt, a 38% concentration of HCl acid can be obtained by bubbling HCl gas into dH2O.  Be creative, don't let big brother hold you down.
__________________________________________________
That trip to wally world must have learned you somethin
J/K
VL_

ChemicalSolution

  • Guest
Flip!! :)
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2002, 04:44:00 AM »
MaDMAx is right, and ChemicalSolution is overlooking the basic principles of gas solubility.  As the temperature rises the gas is LESS soluble in the solution.  That's like high school chemistry! CS_, you seem to be a knowledgable fellow, what's your explanation of how a liquid will have a lower boiling point than a gas?  When muriatic is boiled it gives off gas damnit!   It is quite possible that HCl will come over with water at high temperatures, but not any kind of concentrated solution.  What would come over would be the amount of HCl soluble at THAT temperature.  This is not a feasable method for concentrating a solution.

GOD!! Why does Julia have to be such a miserable nit-picky bitch lately??  Why did she never learn that gasses have lower boiling points than liquids???

Flip-- here's an expiriment for you to try.. Take some of your HCl and boil it!!! Yes, take a litre, 500ml, whatever.. and boil it!!  In your world, where all the hydrogen chloride boils before the water, the pH of the liquid should = 7 LONG before the liquid is removed..

Boil that hcl down to a volume of 50ml.. Now make ~ 0.1M NaOH solution, standardize that solution by titrating KHP or something, and then use that standardized solution of NaOH to titrate the amount of HCL in an aliquat your liquid..

Or you could just take the pH and find it to be off-the-chart acidic..

Aparently you have never made HBr either.. Ah well.. Julia gives up..

As for the fellow who wants his %hcl increased, damnit..

Why can't your SWIM bubble it in the same fashion as you would bubble free base? 

xoxo Julia

Flip

  • Guest
Solubility curve - once again
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2002, 05:20:00 AM »

Flip-- here's an expiriment for you to try.. Take some of your HCl and boil it!!! Yes, take a litre, 500ml, whatever.. and boil it!!  In your world, where all the hydrogen chloride boils before the water, the pH of the liquid should = 7 LONG before the liquid is removed..




Ok... this is why it's called a solubility curve.  As temp increases, gas solubility decreases, but this is not a y = -x type of equation.  Eventually, yes, the bp of the water will be reached and the HCl left in solution would come over with it.

However, I indeed have never distilled HBr, and if there is some logical fallacy to my argument then please point it out.

Flip



_flip_@hushmail.com

ChemicalSolution

  • Guest
(sigh)
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2002, 06:54:00 AM »
Geez.. Room temerature is well above the boiling point of these gasses..   Ever wonder why they don't boil out of the container??

Please do 5 minutes of research on this one.  A SWIMMER first needs to understand the concept of a MAXIMUM BOILING POINT AZEOTROPE.

ta ta
Julia


http://www.chemeng.ed.ac.uk/~neilm/new/azeotope/HH.html#Hydrogen_chloride




Flip

  • Guest
Azeo-freakin-tropes
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2002, 07:16:00 AM »
Julia..........seriously....... marry me?

azeotrope - a mixture of liquids that boils without a change in composition ie when it boils it gives off a vapor whose composition is the same as the liquid

I didn't know there were azeotropes of liquid and gas.  Thanks.

EDIT: I guess that HCl is not a very ideal gas.

_flip_@hushmail.com

RoundBottom

  • Guest
litigious nation
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2002, 10:06:00 AM »
so i was at the local orange big box hardware store today, asking about the muriatic.  first the clerk said they moved it all outside because of it's toxic nature.  then, when we couldn't find it, he double checked and said that it is no longer sold, because some fuckhead burnt himself with it in the states and sued. 

why the fuck they removed it here is beyond me. last time i checked, no one got sued in canada for spilling coffee in their lap.  but i said this while holding 2 bottles of 98% sulphuric acid.

i learned a thing or two from charlie dontcha know.