Author Topic: Alternative safrole sources  (Read 5538 times)

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El_Zorro

  • Guest
Alternative safrole sources
« on: January 21, 2002, 12:24:00 AM »
This subject has been plauguing me recently, and I could use a few answers from the fellow bees.

1. Does Star Anise oil contain safrole?(illicium verum)

2. Does anyone have an online nursery source for Illicium Parviflorum(sp.?)?  DO NOT post it here, if you do.  If you are of a very noble and giving heart, you might PM it to me, though.

3. Does anybody have a good eugenol-->safrole synth using HI to cleave the methoxy group? (Uh oh, here come the dreaded UTFSE's  :o

4. And lastly, does anyone have about 50 gal. of sassy they could drop off at SWIM's house? ;)  Just kidding, but if you took that seriously, feel fre to PM me. :)

Zorro

baalchemist

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2002, 01:31:00 AM »
Try over at Rhodiums site, I believe the Safrole FAQ has all the safrole containing oils listed and their respective %'s. I think the Eugenol>Safrole synth is over there also.

GODISNOWHERE

Dr_Sister

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2002, 03:12:00 AM »
unless you are connected it pretty much time to start thinking about precursers other than sassy, like apiole, dill apiole, asarone or anethole.

7.10.01

El_Zorro

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2002, 04:20:00 AM »
The safrole FAQ only gave anise oil as "disputed", and the only other info I could find did not list safrole in the contents. :(

I would love about ten or fifteen yellow anise trees, though.  With the evergreen leaves, SWIM could harvest multi-kg's of leaves a couple of times a year, and then, you guessed it, steam distill it, and maybe have 2-3 kg's of safrole several times a year.  The only problem is, I don't live around GA, so I don't have any nurseries around here that sells yellow anise.  The only online nursery I could find only sells one tree per person.(Are they catching on? :o )

What about Piper Hispervidinum?  Does anybody have a common name for this?  Nursery source?

Anyway, it's just been on my mind lately.

Zorro

El_Zorro

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2002, 08:39:00 PM »
I've been looking around, and (what do you know) I've got a couple more questions.

In the AlCl3 demethylization, a PTC is used apparently for the specific reason of allowing the AlCl3 to mix with the eugenol.  Couldn't this be achieved by using a solvent that dissolves eugenol and AlCl3?  Maybe an alcohol, or DMF, or something like that?  Or would the AlCl3 go after the solvent?  If this worked though, all SWIM would have to do is reflux in eugenol, AlCl3, and solvent, then extract and test to see if you got Catechol(that is unmethylated safrole, isn't it?).

Second, Where would one get Nordefrin?  I was thinking that a very very bad person could just methylate it, then possibly run it through the sulfuric acid/metal chloride reaction that turns ephedrine to P2P, and maybe get MDP2P.  Would that work?  Or you could just run the methylated product throug the birch, HI/RP, etc. to get MDA.  Comments?

Zorro

Rhodium

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2002, 09:36:00 AM »
Anise oil does not usually contain appreciable amounts of safrole, it is only a goos source of anethole (4-methoxypropenylbenzene).

El_Zorro

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2002, 09:57:00 PM »
Oh my god!!  Rhodium actually responded to one of mt posts! :-[

Anyway, fuck eugenol.  The ONLY interesting thing I read was some post about eugenol being refluxed with NaOH and I think they added AlCl3, but anyway, all they got was 5% demethylated product.  They did say that the remaining eugenol was relatively unharmed, but I still don't think it's very feasable.

So.......does black pepper oil contain piperine?

Zorro

Osmium

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2002, 10:12:00 PM »
Piperine is too big to steam-distill.

Live long and Prosper.

Elementary

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2002, 11:29:00 PM »
Have you considered Ylang Ylang ?

One day I'll understand everything !

El_Zorro

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2002, 11:29:00 PM »
Well...........

does the reduction of MDP-2-Nitropropene with AlLiH4 as given in the "large scale MDMA from piperanol" page on Rodium's site actually give MDMA, or MDP2P, like in EVERY OTHER reduction of MDP-2-Nitropropene I've read?

What does Yling Ylang have in it?

Zorro

pickler

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2002, 11:44:00 PM »
Yling ylang has safrole in it. Swim believes it's about 90%,but swim could bee wrong check Rhodium's site. It's in the safrole FAQ. Swim found some places tha have it, but kinda expensive compared to sassy.

El_Zorro

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2002, 09:26:00 PM »
Many questions answered.  One to go.

Is Yling Ylang watched at all?  Could I order say, 5 or six kilo's of it and not woory about pigs busting down my door?

Zorro

noj

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2002, 09:31:00 PM »
Yling Ylang? Ylang Ylang? Hell I even saw Ylang Yling! Are these all misspellings of Ylang Ylang?

crucify the ego before it's far too late
and you will come to find that we are all one mind

Elementary

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2002, 09:31:00 PM »
It's Ylang Ylang !  :P



One day I'll understand everything !

El_Zorro

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2002, 11:11:00 PM »
Yling Ylang, Ylang Yling, Yling Yling, Ylang Ylang, who gives a fuck?

All I care about is how much safrole it has in it, and how watched it is.

Alright, I lied.  Another question.

Can the cyclohexylamine in the piperonal-->MDP-2-Nitropropene synth be substituted?  Is it just a solvent or catalyst, or an actual reagent?

Zorro

Elementary

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2002, 12:01:00 AM »
You'll give a fuck when you try and order something that don't excist !

UTFSE, then you will find what you want about safrole !

Well look at that, only took <1 min to find it

Post 95481 (missing)

(Osmium: "Oils that contain safrole", Chemicals & Equipment)


One day I'll understand everything !

El_Zorro

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2002, 05:38:00 AM »
Yeah I know dude, I especially give a fuck about whether or not people actually answer my question or just post a lot of bullshit that really amounts to abouy, oh, maybe, JACK SHIT.

When I asked who gave a fuck what the name of the oil was, it was not meant as an insult of any kind, and it was in no way a statement by me that I would actually try to order MDMA precursor materials without thorough investigation of each and everything I ordered.  That whole reply was meant by me as basically a "please get back on topic so Rhodium won't yoink this thread" reply.  What I don't understand is, is why, if you are SO inconvenienced by my ignorant questions, do you take the time to not only give me the classic UTFSE, but you also do a search for me.  If you hate the questions so much, DON'T WASTE TIME IN THIS THREAD.

The question I asked, that you so deftly avoided answering, is whether or not a 5-6 kg order of ylang ylang oil would draw undue attention.  The post you gave did not even come close to answering this.  I already know what I need to about safrole, this thread is about safrole ALTERNATIVES.  So next time you try and put someone in their place, maybe you should take more than a minute.

By the way, you spelled exist wrong.

The question of cyclohexylamine still stands, though(everybody else). ;)

Zorro

terbium

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2002, 06:18:00 AM »
whether or not a 5-6 kg order of ylang ylang oil would draw undue attention.
It would not occur to anyone that the Ylang Ylang oil was being used as a precursor for controlled substances so it would not attract attention in that respect. It would attract attention in the sense that 5kg is a very large quantity of an expensive oil, you would likely have to do business with an importer/wholesale house to obtain such a large quantity. I doubt that Ylang Ylang would prove to be a cost effective source of safrole.

noj

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2002, 06:22:00 AM »
yeah, I was thinking it was like 4x the price of sassafras.

amalgum

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2002, 07:35:00 AM »
I strongly suggest finding out what type of climate you have in your area, and figuring out what types of plants grow in your area. In my area sassafras grows wild, and it proliferates anything from a yard to the woods.  With a little hard work, you could have all the free precursor you wanted.

El_Zorro

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2002, 11:11:00 PM »
Yeah, Ylang Ylang never really was a real option for me.($3,000+ for 9kg's!!  Fuck that!)

I was most interested in Illicium parviflorum (Yellow anise), as it is a rather large shrub that is drought tolerant, hardy, fast-growing, evergreen, and the essential oil distilled from its leaves contains about 90%(I think, I'm most likely wrong, but I know it's a very sizeable portion) safrole.  As I said before, I haven't found a good source of these shrubs, but I can guarantee you this, if I had a source, there would be about 50 of these shrubs on my property ready for year-round multi-kg harvests of leaves, starting this spring.

So, if anyone knows of an online or mail-order mursery that can supply me, let me know.

Zorro

Elementary

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2002, 11:26:00 PM »
"That whole reply was meant by me as basically a "please get back on topic so Rhodium won't yoink this thread" reply.  What I don't understand is, is why, if you are SO inconvenienced by my ignorant questions, do you take the time to not only give me the classic UTFSE, but you also do a search for me.  If you hate the questions so much, DON'T WASTE TIME IN THIS THREAD."

I am not inconvienced, I only wanted to point out the fact that the information is there if you look for it, I was mearly showing you how to wipe your arse so in the future you can do it yourself !

"It would not occur to anyone that the Ylang Ylang oil was being used as a precursor for controlled substances so it would not attract attention in that respect. It would attract attention in the sense that 5kg is a very large quantity of an expensive oil, you would likely have to do business with an importer/wholesale house to obtain such a large quantity. I doubt that Ylang Ylang would prove to be a cost effective source of safrole."

Yes Terbium is correct, but then again with a bit of common sense you should of been able to work that out yourself !

"So, if anyone knows of an online or mail-order mursery that can supply me, let me know."

Yes, of course we will all break the hive rules for you !

"The question I asked, that you so deftly avoided answering, is whether or not a 5-6 kg order of ylang ylang oil would draw undue attention.  The post you gave did not even come close to answering this.  I already know what I need to about safrole, this thread is about safrole ALTERNATIVES.  So next time you try and put someone in their place, maybe you should take more than a minute."

I answered you question on safole content in ylang ylang, by giving you a post link ! One of two questions !

"By the way, you spelled exist wrong."

Yes you are quite correct, thank-you for pointing this out !



One day I'll understand everything !

El_Zorro

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2002, 01:11:00 AM »
Unanswered questions:

Can cyclohexylamine be substituted?

Common name for Piper Hispervidinum?

Uses, sources for Nordefrin?

Zorro

sYnThOmAtIc

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2002, 07:03:00 AM »
If this ylang ylang oil contains an acceptable ammount of safrole than considering the value of the finished product of say 3-6kg would more than make up for the initial cost.

I'll give you newbee a hint in to this game. If you can't afford to do this shit properly then don't. Grow you some sort of plant that is legal in whatever country you live in until your crop pays for future endeavors. The fact that you can't figure this out for yourself when all the information is before your lazy eyes means that you haven't the motivation or education to make this work without serious consequences. And until you have the money, motivation, chemical education, and street smarts to carry this out, then you are better off with fast food jobs. The more corners you cut in acquisition, equipment, initial investment and covering up all of your tracks the higher the chance of you having a catostrophic accident resulting in undesired product or worse, you being dead. Even if an accident or paper trail doens't immediatly kill you or get you busted, you can certainly expect the neighbors or cops to be on to you.
Spend a lil more time at the library or the search engine before asking the same old questions. Safrole sources have been discussed tirelessly and there is a very extensive list on rhodiums page. Your gonna have to do some research for yourself. And if you can't figure out what role the clclo has in the reaction then you obviously need more education in chemistry before even considering something. It's people like you who will eventually get free speach on the preparations of these substances banned cause of people blowing shit up or making illegal drugs and getting caught with the information source as a "recipe" next to the shish or crime.

racemic

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2002, 07:40:00 AM »
I'm pretty sure Ylang-Ylang is more than 4X the price of sassy, I was thinking that by the time you paid for 6 kilo's of it you could have flown somewhere and gathered the nectar yourself, not to mention that ylang(squared) oil contains tiny amounts of what you need. It may even be better to invest that money legally.

Piper H. is a shrub that is found in Brazil, you are highly unlikely to find it anywhere else short of a tropical botanical garden somewhere. It is such a good potential source (90% of leaf oil) if some ethnobotanical supplier doesn't start offering it soon I'm going to have to make a pillgrimage.

noj

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2002, 10:50:00 AM »
Well, according to one supplier, it is 4.3X the price per liter. But if you go by safrole content, then yes, it is not a financially good investment.

Real men cook naked.

sYnThOmAtIc

  • Guest
Re: Alternative safrole sources
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2002, 06:30:00 AM »
BTW, what is the content the only thing I found said 96%. Which still would rahter drive to canada to get sassy then this shit.

GOD

  • Guest
ylang ylang III?
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2002, 11:05:00 PM »
although swim doubts he'd ever use this as a source, he has noticed in his searchings that there is a ylang ylang beeing sold AS WELL AS a ylang ylang III.
Do any bees know the differance between these, and if so, is there a differance in content?
-Swims gut feeling is that the ylang ylang III is the same material processed three times over, but who knows?

My mom tells me Im good lookin'!!!

Anansi

  • Guest
ylang-ylang & ylang-ylang III
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2002, 07:43:00 AM »
When ylang-ylang is extracted, the flowers are subjected to fractional steam distillation, producing four grades of ylang-ylang oil. These are known as ylang-ylang extra, first, second and third (extra, I, II & III). Thus the extra grade (the most expensive, usually reserved for perfumery) contains the most volatile constituents and the third grade contains the least volatile constituents. These separate fractions are often combined for aromatherapy purposes to produce what is known as ylang-ylang complete.

These fractions can be distinguished from eachother by odour as well as by specific gravity, however because there are no agreed standards to which the still-operaters comply, a given grade may vary from producer to producer.

As far as safrole content is concerned, the ylang-ylang III should contain more than the other fractions, but I have no idea if this represents a useful source of safrole.

Hope this helps,

...Anansi

kid_trippin

  • Guest
time to make safrole
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2002, 06:39:00 PM »
it looks like a lot of safrole sources are disappearing.  time to do some experimenting.  swim noticed that Cinnamomum zeylanicum is a relatively abundant and cheap essential oil in the U.S., but is not mentioned in the safrole faq on Rhodium's site.  Maybe cuz it's not there, maybe cuz it wasn't looked into.  Swim noticed that a lot of the plants in the Lauraceae family (including sassafras) contain safrole in the root and bark extracts.  Cinnamomum zeylanicum root/bark extract is a brownish/yellow oil from the same family as sassafras.  swim isn't in the position to test it out though.

it doesn't make much sense to me why everyone is talking about distilling out safrole though.  isn't it easier to get sources of piperonal and then just do an extra synth?

Resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.

kid_trippin

  • Guest
Nutmeg oil
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2002, 10:33:00 PM »
Here's an interesting fact:
Sassafras albidum root contains 16,000 ppm safrole
Myristica fragrans seed (Nutmeg) contains 2,720 ppm safrole

You can search for any other plants containing certain chemicals at

http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/highchem.html



Resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.

jstcloud9

  • Guest
star anise
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2002, 10:49:00 PM »
Safrole which is in star anise (9325 mg/kg), cumin (3432 mg/kg), black pepper (955 mg/kg) and ginger (500 mg/kg), was mutagenic in the Salmonella reversion assay
                                                Farag 1997
zorro- you'll need more than more than 19 kilos of star anise efore you could do anything.

El_Zorro

  • Guest
is that the oil or plant matter?
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2002, 01:14:00 AM »
is that the oil or plant matter?

Do not go gentle into that good night.  Rage, Rage, against the dying of the light.  --Dylan Thomas