Author Topic: Hydrogen Generator Plans  (Read 3155 times)

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Chicken

  • Guest
Hydrogen Generator Plans
« on: October 05, 2002, 02:42:00 PM »
This design uses sound resonance to split water, could someone exlain to me what would be used as the pulse generator.  Could this sort of a device be used to produe hydrogen for a 1 atm hydrogenation, could a tank be incorporated and the H2 stored?  What sort of compressors are used to pressurize H2 Gas (will research this on my own.  Could extreme cooling of the reciever tank be used, and then pressure in the reciever be raised when the heat is raised.  Is hydrogen to light (molar whise) to produce enough hydrogen to be useful in hydrgoenations).  Thanks for any help.  I assume this isn't using a standard carbon/zinc electrode method.

Design By Mike Rigby (would post link, but contains direct link to sources)

terbium

  • Guest
Where does the oxygen go?
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2002, 04:48:00 PM »
Looks bogus to me. Does he have plans for an antigravity generator too?

Baseline Does Not Exist.

Osmium

  • Guest
I think I've seen something similar, with Al ...
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2002, 05:25:00 PM »
I think I've seen something similar, with Al instead of stainless steel. The Al kinda burns (?) and produces huge amounts of gaseous H2 in a very short time.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

hCiLdOdUeDn

  • Guest
But if the sound split the water molecules you ...
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2002, 05:45:00 PM »
But if the sound split the water molecules you would get 2 volumes of hydrogen and 1 volume of oxygen. This would be a bit hard to seperate....

To bee or not to bee, that IS the question.

terbium

  • Guest
Consider the source.
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2002, 07:29:00 PM »
2 volumes of hydrogen and 1 volume of oxygen. This would be a bit hard to seperate....
Maybe they use a zero-point energy powered anti-gravity generator to effect the separation.

http://www.remnantsaints.com/AlternativeUtilities/#Anti-Gravity



http://www.remnantsaints.com/AlternativeUtilities/Hydrogen/MikeRigby/index.html




Baseline Does Not Exist.

Chicken

  • Guest
US Patent 5089107
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2002, 07:38:00 PM »
While trying to find out about stainless steel electrodes I came upon this:


An autoelectrolytic hydrogen generator system constituted by one or a plurality of similar cells wherein a galvanic arrangement of magnesium and aluminum plates of sacrificial elements as anode; stainless steel as cathode and sea water as electrolyte, by its very nature is made to develop a voltage when connected in short circuit causing a current to flow within the system and hydrogen production of hydrogen in situ and on demand by the electrolytic action at one pole, the cathode, and additional hydrogen by the electrochemical reaction at the other pole, the anode. Surplus electric energy of the system applied to a optional electrolyzer will also be made to produce additional hydrogen at its two sacrificial aluminum electrodes.



US Patent 5089107

Note: Not surisingly it is nothing like the original design.  Did you guys see those pictures of the anti-grav things flying around ;)  


ballzofsteel

  • Guest
chicken
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2002, 01:43:00 PM »
are you looking for a home grown hydrogen supply?

Jetson

  • Guest
in the archives........
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2002, 08:51:00 AM »
there once was a post about a similar design that used mostly pvc piping and end caps for the generator tank and what not and some transducers or something for the ultrasonic sound and shite.  it should still be accessable through TFSE  ;)  

the devil is so lonely >:(

ballzofsteel

  • Guest
Check out these links If you have not already.
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2002, 10:00:00 AM »
Check out these links If you have not already.
Hope they are of some assistance.

Electrolytic water splitter:

http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/electrolysis.htm%5B/url

]

storage ideas:

http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/hydrogen.htm



The main page:

http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/content1.htm



There is plenty of food for thought amongst this lot.

good luck

ballzofsteel

  • Guest
A few from Labtop post No 267441 Gotta let ya do ...
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2002, 10:08:00 AM »
A few from Labtop

post No 267441

Gotta let ya do a little engineing
:P

flipper

  • Guest
That's all easy
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2002, 03:32:00 PM »
The real problem is separating the H2/O2 gas.
In expensive gas-generators they do this with a Pd membrane bu we can't make ghetto equipment with such pricy things.
We have too find a ghetto answer for this problem. We don't like exploding labs and bodyparts splatting on the walls.

Chicken

  • Guest
H2 from H20
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2002, 04:26:00 PM »

Thermochemical water-splitting cycles have been studied, at various levels of effort, for the past 35 years. They were extensively studied in the late 70s and early 80s but have received little attention in the past 10 years, particularly in the U.S. While there is no question about the technical feasibility and the potential for high efficiency, cycles with proven low cost and high efficiency have yet to be developed commercially. Over 100 cycles have been proposed, but substantial research has been executed on only a few.




US Department of Energy
Report On Nuclear Reactor Heat being iused as a method of hydrogen extraction from H20. 
[

http://web.gat.com/pubs-ext/MISCONF00/A23510.pdf



ballzofsteel

  • Guest
%
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2002, 05:00:00 AM »
Flipper,How much Oxygen do you think will be evolved at the cathode and up into the top region of cathodic cell?.


jimwig

  • Guest
kipp I say - kipp
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2002, 06:33:00 PM »
along time ago (1844) a pharmacist name of Petrous Jacobus Kipp needed a method or apparatus to produce gas for use in the lab. he invented a marvelous gas generator that worked with no moving (read sparking) parts that produced gas on demand. could be stopped and started simply by crimping the supply side lines.
shortly it was safe (?) and could be fabricated easily (no bozo's) making it OTC, yeah!!!

You may view this device at

http://mattson.creighton.edu/History_Gas_Chemistry/Kipps.html




and also view several modern variations of this oh so wonderful device at

the laboratory preparation of hydrogen sulfide: a historical survey   JCE   July 1958 page 347
an improved gas generator for elementary chemistry                     JCE   Jan 1961  Page 1961
an automatic gas generator                                                      JCE   December 1936 page 588
a simple substitute for a kipp generator                                      JCE    November 1930 page 2583

anywho I hope you take care and remember the hindenberg.

oh yeah JCE = Journal of Chemical Education ---- appearing continuously at the better university libraries..

Organikum

  • Guest
maximum pressure by chemical reaction
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2002, 07:54:00 PM »

first: congratulations Jimwig for your job at this magazine, and it was HINDENBURG not hintenberg and the accident showed that H2 burns not explodes. The amount of H2 in the HINDENBURG in the right mix with O2 alone would have blown everything away in approximately 3 miles around. It was a fire not an explosion. And most of the passengers and the crew survived. I exchange hydrogen against every flammable solvent needed in a lab for sure. Is everybody at the HIVE paid by TEXACO for taking down the fuel of the future [jokealarm!]?  :o

But I wanted to ask if the pressure of hydrogen produced in a chemical reaction will rise up to the point of liquidification if exists or supercritical state, or is the reaction somehow selflimiting by pressure.
Does the reaction stop because of rising pressure?

Sounds stupid, but I am just not sure.
This is something I didn´t wanted to solve by experiment.

ORGY

DxRtUcG

  • Guest
gas / liquid equilibria
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2002, 11:38:00 AM »
The equilibrium position for a reversible, liquid-phase reaction is unaffected by products that are not in the liquid phase (i.e. solid or gas). Therefore, if H2(g) is a product of the reaction, it should not be a hinderance to said rxn. However it is theoretically possible that the H2(g) could compress into the liquid phase. Only then would would it (begin to) effect the position of reaction equilibrium in favor of the reactants.  ;)

No really, I ...

epistemologicide

  • Guest
hydrogen
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2002, 05:46:00 PM »
HOW TO PRODUCE CHEAP HYDROGEN
There are different modes of hydrogen production. But all those are not cheap and easy. Recently inventors V.Studennikov and G.Kudimov (Moscow, Russia) have found a new effective mode of hydrogen production. It is easy-to-use and very effective. They offer this technology to all investors.

Hydrogen has perspectives as alternative energy source. Its stocks in ocean waters are inexhaustible. Other advantages of hydrogen are relative ecological safety in use, high calorific capacity, acceptability for heat engines without essential change of their designs and others.

The known ways of hydrogen production (on basis of chemistry, thermochemistry, electrolysis and others) are very expensive because of use a fuel (coal, natural gas, petroleum) or electric power. Conventional industrial electrolysis takes about 18...21.6 megajoules of electrical energy per one cubic meter of produced hydrogen, and total energy consumption including production of electrical energy itself is about 50 megajoules per one cubic meter. Accordingly such hydrogen is not cheap, it costs about $2 per one cubic meter.

At once we swim in heat flows supplied by the sun, the earth core and activity of people. The goal is to use these sources of free low-grade heat to produce hydrogen.

Now we have developed conception and its theoretical base to convert directly a heat of any nature in potential chemical energy. This is executed by water decomposition with hydrogen and oxygen output in an electrolyte solution located in strong field created by artifical inertial forces. Therefore in total energy balance of an eletrochemical process used to water decomposition a conventional consumption of electricity is changed by free heat supply from outer source and mechanical energy of inertial field. This conception’s name is gravitational electrolysis.

To realize it we have developed simple high-efficiency devices for production of cheap hydrogen called the Electricity & Hydrogen Generator (EHG) and patented by RST system (International application RU 98/00190 from 10.07.97). It is actuated by a mechanical drive and works in a mode of the thermal pump at normal temperature absorbing heat from enviroment, industrial or transport installations. At water decomposition external mechanical energy supplied may be transformed (up to 80%) into electricity which then used by any user in need of external useful load.

Thereby per each unit of the spent mechanical capacity, from 20 to 88 units of low grade heat are absorbed. This compensates negative thermal effect of chemical reaction of water decomposition. One cubic meter of conditional working volume of the generator operating at optimum mode (at efficiency factor 86...98%) is able to make 3.5 cubic meter of hydrogen and 2.2 megajoules of electrical energy per second. The heat power of EHG unit depending on a demand can be varied from several kilowatts up to 1000 megawatts. The calculation of energy consumption to hydrogen production gives result as 14.42 megajoules per one cubic meter. Because of use in the process free heat the cost of producing one cubic meter of hydrogen is decreased to $0.0038. This is 2.5...3 times cheaper than total cost to produce and transportation the same volume of natural gas.

The broad control range and exceptional specific features of the process allow to use this invention successfully in energetics, all transport kinds, agriculture, communal household , as well in chemistry, concrete production, metallurgy etc.

Physics of EHG’s working process is’nt difficult and is development of known experiments (by Tolman and Steward, 1916). It is known that at solution an electrolyte is dissotiated into iones hydrated by water molecules. Therefore around these hydrated shells with differents strength are created. An energy of interaction between hydrated iones with different signs of charge decreases highly and nears an energy of water molecules’ Brownian motion (at 18° C, Wk = 3/2k× T = 6× 1 0 - 2 1 joules, where k - Boltzmann constant, T - absolute temperature). If a concentrated solution of a dissotiated electrolyte, whose masses of an anion and a cation differ highly, to locate in an artifical inertial field, for example, to rotate it in the EHG’s vessel (a calculated rotation frequency for various electrolytes and features of the device is 1,500...45,000 rev/min), then iones will be separated partially.

Heavy iones affecting each other by own electrical field move to a periphery of the vessel. Thereby their kinetic energy will near an energy of heat motion. For example, for the ion BrO3- with the mass m =21,26× 10- 26 kg at circumferential speed V =330 m× c- 1 (when an internal diameter of the vessel is 0.14 m, rotation frequency is 45,000 rev/min ) kinetic energy will be

W = 0,5mV2 = 11,57× 10- 2 1 joules.

Outer iones will be pressed to the internal surface of the vessel and will generate concentrated electrical bulk charge. Then total centrifugal force affected the aniones pressed to the anode will be break their hydrated shells as these are the weakest. Light iones are less responsible to the gravity and have stronger shells, therefore they cannot give its hydrated molecules of water to the heavy iones. Accordingly light iones will be concentrated above the heavy iones near the vessel axis (near the cathode) forming electrical potential with inverted sign. On the anode free electrones move to the catode by bulk electrical charge of aniones (this is a feature of Faraday cell).

When achieving the minimal (threshold) frequency of the vessel rotation at given electrolyte and given design features when critical electrical potentials on the eletrodes are achievied the charge equalization will be broken. Electrones will move from the cathode and ionize molecules of hydrated shells and these will give charges to the cations. It will be as discharge of “an electrolytic capacitor”. Therefore a discharge of ions with formation of hydrogen on the cathode and oxygen and anode gases (a sediment) on the anode will begin. The electrical current voltage will depend on difference between speeds of chemical reactions on the anode and the cathode.

Therefore due to principle of energy conversion the gravity field will generate an adequate electrical field which will exceed hydration energy and will realize the electrolyse. This process is accompanied by plentiful absorption of thermal energy through heat exchanger and needs to dissolve a solution by water to initial concentration continuosly. A basic power scheme of electrolysis in EHG is similar to a scheme of conventional electrolysis. However in our case any electrical energy is’nt spent, but every cheap thermal energy from eniromental or other sources is used.

  There are following chemical reactions in the generator:

In the solution

HBrO3 ® H+ + BrO3- or, for example, H2O + SO2 + 0,5 O2 ® H2 SO4

H2 SO4 ® 2 H + + SO4 - 2

On the cathode

2H+ + 2e- ® H2 ­

On the anode

2 BrO3- - 2 e- ® 0,5O2 ­ + Br2O5 or SO4 - 2 - 2 å - ® SO2 ­ + O2­

SO3 - 2 - 2å - ® SO2 ­ + 0,5 O2­

In by- anode space the reaction of sediment and hydrated water

Br2O5 + H2O ® 2HBrO3 or H2O + SO2 ® H2 SO3

HBrO3 ® H + + BrO3- H2 SO3 ® 2 H + + SO3 - 2

Gravitational electrolysis has several following features.

Firstly, every mechanical work of the inertial field spent to the sediment of the water molecules, light and in particular heavy iones, is replaced practically by kinetic energy of gases (hydrogen, oxygen and anode gases) floated to the vessel axis because their density is less than a solution density. The result is a sum of a moment of momentum for initial and end electrolysis products nears to zero. This is any mechanical work is’nt executed in the solution. The supplied mechanical energy is spent to overcome friction forces in a rotation drive. The gases created at the anode and the anode’s sediment enter into secondary chemical reactions with water and oxygen forming initial structure of the solution.

Secondly, intensive solution cooling causes heat absorption from environment or another source. By this an endothermal effect of water decomposition’s reaction is compensated i.e. EHG works as the thermal pump. For millions of years Earth’s nature uses heat for decomposition water and carbon dioxide to increase hydrocarbon biomass. It is known this process is executed at light absence, for exmple, in old wells, under ground etc. Therefore there is possible in nature the thermochemical process for transition of heat into potential chemical energy. The second rule of thermodynamics explains this causing to enthropy inreasing. In our case

D S = - Q× Te- 1 - (- Q× Ts- 1 ) = Q(Ts- 1 - Te- 1 ) > 0

(at Te > Ts, a solution has a less temperarure than enviroment),

when

Q - chemical reaction’s thermal effect of water molecules decomposition, joules

Te - temperarure of enviroment, ° K;

Ts - temperarure of solution, ° K;

Thermodynamical efficiency factor of the process

h = (Te - Ts)× Te - 1 = 0,2...0,4

in nature is much less because biomass cannot be cooled highly, and temperarure of enviroment is’nt very big. In our case temperarure of solution may be much less 273 ° K.

Total efficiency factor of the process

h ù = Q (A + Q)- 1 = 0,86¸ 0,98,

when

A - energy consumption in the EHG’s mechanical drive, joules

Thirdly, the generator is able to develop a constant electrical current on external load if the vessel rotation frequency is more than calculated minimum. Then EHG has a feature as electrical generator which has a capacitor kind of graph voltage/current (its output voltage is proportional an external load).

Fourthly, EHG combines in one device the functions of two divices – electrical generator and electrolyser.

On completion, due to use free heat sources such as enviromental heat, losses from industrial, energetics or transport installations a cost of hydrogen production is decreased highly.

Due to all above mentioned features gravitational electrolysis is more effective and cheaper than known processes in hydrogen energetics.

EHG has simple design, may be easy built into thermal turbines and various power installations. Use of heat losses of internal combustion engines allows to decrease fuel consumption about twice and to increase the engine’s efficiency factor up to 70%. Also an exhaust toxicity is essentially reduced. These advantages may be used in a car with electrical drive.

The application of EHG for compressor stations of gas pipelines will allow to decrease about 2-2,5 times turboagregates’ fuel consumption due to use of heat output while natural gas is compressed. The cooling of transported natural gas by EHG up to a temperature below zero will allow to create additional pressure in a pipeline (approximately for 6-8 %) and therefore will increase throughput. The taken heat can be transformed for needs of economic objects located near a gas pipeline.

On aircrafts EHG can decrease an airborne weight due to a fuel reserve reducing. Therefore improving of fuel consumption along with payload increasing will cause decreasing of shipment cost about 25-30 %.

On rail transportation EHG can allow to use all equipment with diesel traction only as the cheapest. Accordingly costs of electrical networks maintenance will highly decrease.

The application of EHG on ships will allow to reduce greatly a consumption of hydrocarbon fuel due to use of thermal energy of outside water. The installation of EHG on ships and submarines will provide them practically unlimited autonomous operation. At space stations EHG can be used as cheap and safe fuel source.

Floating mobile stations will be able to supply coastal towns, industrial or agricultural objects by thermal and electrical energy. Accordingly hydrogen can become cheaper than natural gas. The various versions of EHG can be applied in stationary and mobile power installations, particularly in far-away settlements, industrial objects, expeditions, farms etc. Any sources of heat, for example, solar and geothermal energy, industrial and household drains, can serve as power supply for EHG. Use of EHG at existing thermal and atomic power stations will raise essentially their profitability.

In ferrous metallurgy cheap hydrogen can replace expensive coke. Thus an emission of carbon dioxide in environment will be considerably reduced.

On spacecrafts EHG can replace gyroscopes and conventional solar panels as well provide orientation engines by effective, very cheap and safe fuel.

A source of heat for EHG may be enthalpy of any water body, industrial and household drains, enviromental air. It may be also internal heat surplus of buildings, mines, industrial gases, including applied in metallurgy and chemistry, as well solar, wind, and geothermal energy. Invention may be have perspectives to effective use of heat created by underground afterburning of coal resting in uneconomical mines.

The invention may be perhaps used for separation of various inorganic substances, for example at uranium enrichment. It allows to divide isotopes of U235 and U238, by separating them from water solution as a metal powder.

The simple design enables to realize production a series of some most simple verions of EHG without significant investments within several months. Estimated cost of the EHG produced in Russia will be $25...28 per kW of thermal capacity. The calculated profitability of investments to realize the invention exceeds 100 % provided a beginning of profit getting less 1.5 years. Years’ benefit of application of the EHG is on average about $87 per kilowatt of heat power.

There is a detailed technical substantiation of gravitational electrolysis process (

http://web.uni.udm.ru/common/biomed/mis-rt.htm

) as well design documentation and the EHG’s evaluation unit.

references-Authors V.V. Studennikov

G. I. Kudimov

Russia,117574, Moscow, str. Vilniusskaya, 4, apt.339,

ph. (095) 421-13-87 V.V. Studennikov

Russia,115580, Moscow, str. Musa Dzhalil, 27, block 2, apt. 284,

ph/fax (095) 396-80-27 G. I. Kudimov



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i cook to save the planet!!

PolytheneSam

  • Guest
The hydrogen generator in the first post doesn't ...
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2002, 06:28:00 PM »
The hydrogen generator in the first post doesn't appear to keep the oxygen and hydrogen seperate which means that you have a very powerful bomb if you collect a lot of gas.  If you try to contact a mixture of oxygen and hydrogen with a hydrogenation catalyst, ie. Pd or Ni, it might explode.

http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html


The hardest thing to explain is the obvious

Organikum

  • Guest
an electron centrifuge?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2002, 05:55:00 AM »

What a pity that the only link provided by epistemologicide, for this device does not work.
Probably conspiracy again.


ORG

now or never

PolytheneSam

  • Guest
I thought conspiracies to fuck up clandestine ...
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2002, 07:11:00 AM »

I thought conspiracies to fuck up clandestine labs and get the chemist killed belonged in the Stimulants forum. I always found H2 production by electrolysis to be too slow and the water tends to heat up too much, too. NaOH and Al works.  Looks like I posted that patent number twice.
 

Post 385208

(PolytheneSam: "H2", Chemistry Discourse)

Post 68452 (missing)

(PolytheneSam: "Re: making hydrogen gas", Chemicals & Equipment)

Post 272898

(PolytheneSam: "Re: Zn/NiCl2 reduction of oxime/nitro/nitriles/ket", Chemistry Discourse)


http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html


The hardest thing to explain is the obvious