Author Topic: electrodialysis for gakk/p-eph seperation  (Read 2588 times)

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stratosphere

  • Guest
electrodialysis for gakk/p-eph seperation
« on: November 04, 2004, 03:49:00 AM »
i was not able to find any info on the TFSE, but it occured to me that electrodialysis (

http://www.electrosynthesis.com/ess/weid.html

) using a cation permeable membrane could be used to extract p-eph from pill mess or possibly eph from plant mess, for example using a polystyrene sulphonic acid membrane the negative cell containing dilute acid, the positive cell containg slightly acidic pill solution.
has any bee dreamed of such a system before?

WizardX

  • Guest
ion-exchange chromatography
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2004, 04:16:00 AM »
Very similar to ion-exchange chromatography, only here the electrical field potential helps drive the ions to separate.


dwarfer

  • Guest
yes: however
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2004, 02:49:00 PM »
Precleaning of some amendments will have to be effected in order to
eliminate the effect of the poly ampholytes, whose physical confirmation is dynamic,  and whose multi-charged (+&-) lenght will interfere greatly with the hypothesis.

Past threads on improved electro methods, and even the
Tyvek threads, will provide some inspiration.

In the 3 cell electro device I made,
the suspended vertical graphite anode
within a condom,
could suffice for part of the structure.

A larger outer "basket" of either Tyvek or a purchased
membrane could be used,
and the outer electrode could be ring of lead, 
or assembled carbon electrodes arranged appropriately.


jboogie

  • Guest
what happened to...
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2004, 04:11:00 PM »
the tyvek threads? i mean, they are still there, but why dont bees speak of the tyvek? ive been a member of the hive for quite some time (multiple names over the years) and i remember the promise of the tyvek threads. do the new gaks render tyvek useless? what did i miss? ::)


ChemoSabe

  • Guest
Tyvek
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2004, 05:25:00 PM »
Tyvek worked awesomely until polysorbate 80's introduction at the dawn of 2004.

Orange gakk 2 sort of got through it but could be killed off with Geezes Xylene precipitation technique.

Swim's buddy never saw any of the problems reported due to Orange Gakk 1 make it through any tyvek extractions.

Polyethylene glycol will not be fully stopped by tyvek from coming over. But the freeloading PEG can easily be removed with a "panning for gold" style acetone rinse.

A weirdly reduced product was still possible of psuedo tyvek extracted with pills containing PS80 but was of the undesirable "jaw clench" variety. Yeilds sucked royally because of the amphoteric qualities the PS80 imparts to both the pseudo and the end product. (amphoteric - when a compound starts acting like both an acid and a base ie: soluble in both polars and non polars)

Don't know how it does with eudragit but since most eudragit contaminated pillstocks also contain PS80 most likely any product made would be the underreduced "jaw clench" grade or worse.


jboogie

  • Guest
wonderful world of gak...
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2004, 07:07:00 PM »
so tyvek is still an option when it comes to feed stock? i was always pleased with my tyvek adventures; iwas never in a hurry and just let those balls sit in den. alcohol for a day. worked great. its been a while since this bee was busy. the biggest problem swijb ever had was triplodine.
does/would a combo of tyvek bags and steam distillation work for the new gaks? i have read the fester thread but was curious if any bees had tried something similar. i have a feeling swim is in for a suprise on his future runs. swims glad he didnt go ahead and just use the old method of 2001 from here. had no idea that the scientists at your friendly warner-lambert were still working weekends... >:(
thanx chemoSabe for the update!


stratosphere

  • Guest
tyvek is polyethylene which would not be ...
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2004, 03:15:00 AM »
tyvek is polyethylene which would not be cationic selective in the way a membrane with an anion affixed to its polymeric structure would be , do any past threads deal with this?

also i would imagine the conductivity of a molecule across a membrane would differ on molecular wieght, so cationic polymeric gaks would transfer the membrane more slowly then our target molecule. although i would also imagine the possibility of membrane fouling.

dwarfer

  • Guest
problems with amphoteric nature
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2004, 05:53:00 PM »
Although Tyvek would not exclude PEG, I suspect it would have an even harder problem these days, though I've not investigated it lately.

Interestingly, the amphoteric  nature of the poly-ampholytes  :)  which are added makes them subject
to "cooking out" in a microwave: they get hot and burn
while the fake does not.

At least one of the co-amendments has to be removed
by one of various ways for this to work:
when "on their own", they tend to self-associate, which
makes them cook-able.


ChemoSabe

  • Guest
Yeild Stealer
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2004, 08:08:00 PM »
Polysorbate 80 is particularly insidious in it's amphoteric assault. If ones pseudo is tainted with it even to a minute degree absolutely every wash you subject it to (and any semi-reduced lockjaw inducing product you might change it into) will suck a decent percentage of yeild from it.

This drain to your yeild occurs because the PS80-fortified precursor and resulting end product have been transmogrified (mutated into a monster) to be soluble in both polar and non-polar solvents.

Also the pseudo and the weth will appear to weirdly be a hybrid of their freebase and hydrochloride forms. Because they are. The actual meth hydrochloride will take an eternity to dry out and when it does it will have some of that fishy freebase fragrance that you might be theoretically familiar with from reading imaginary reports of sleeping bees basing up their post reaction aqueous solutions.

And if you don't thoroughly wash the glassware and anything else you used in a "botched-by" PS80 batch and then use it again in another you'll most likely have yet another amphotericized fiasco on your hands even if you started with ungakked precursor.

Or so I have read.

Favorite PS80 quote,, "swim gassed and got freebase" Scottydog

PS. PS80 is what made Tyvek extractions no longer practical for swim's buddy and could also be appropriately nicknamed "Tyvek Killer".