Author Topic: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.  (Read 693 times)

director of sound

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TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« on: October 12, 2010, 08:55:19 AM »
so ive been looking into this and i do like TMA-2 alot and you can readily get calamus oil online. the breakdown is to react nitrous acid or NO2/NO3 gas with the essential oil in an ether/hexane solution which will precipitate the 2,4,5-trimethoxy psuedonitrosite which i then reacted with a weak NaOH solution to decompose it to the nitropropene. then toss it on your aluminum amalgam and work up as usual. the only drawback is the nitrous acid method, not every can get their hands on it. but just as easy you can take purified sodium nitrate from stump remover and mix it with sulfuric acid in an aqueous solution, only about 40ml concentrated is needed per 100g of sodium nitrate. steel wool is introduced to the solution slowly to generate the NO2/NO3 gas that will be bubbled through the calamus oil solution. everybody can get stump remover or industrial clog remover. the mercury chloride might be a little hard but 1g will go a long way. after the amalgam reduction one sorce of mine says the sulphate salt of trimethoxyamphetamine is the most stable and adding concentrated or fuming sulfuric acid dropwise to the freebase in toluene will precipitate the crystals. seams easier than cake and i may have to give it a wirl with some of the calamus oil i have sitting around. now i know nitrogen dioxide is a horrably toxid nasy corrosife gas that will shred my lungs in seconds but the off gas from the reaction vessle can be bubbled through 30% H2O2 or sulfuric acid ro be turned into nitric acid you can use elsewhere in whatever synthesis you have in mind. any extra fumes can be vented through a hood out the window with a strong fan.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 01:30:47 PM by director of sound »

jon

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2010, 09:03:51 AM »
her director, i would help with this however, i am a bit drunk right now but i can assure you hexane will not work.
i shall give more explicit details when i am sober.

director of sound

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2010, 01:29:50 PM »
i don't see how the hexane could pose a problem as the pseudonitrosite is insoluble in both diethyl ether and hexane which would cause it to crash out as it is formed. i cant see any possible side reactions between the No2/No3 gas complex and the hexane either. possibly adding a small percentage of chloroform or ethyl acetate instead of hexane to the ether/oil solution would result in the formation of better crystal structure on cooling of the solution and thus purity. the only thing i could see happening in a rare case is a slight solubility of the pseudonitrosite with the hexane that would result in a goo/tar rather than a crystalline product or separation of phases as the oil is converted to the pseudonitrosite. either way the hexane could be excluded as most of the research by Toennies, Angeli, Wallach and Wieland used diethyl ether as the solvent for the essential oils. though the cheap ether obtained from starter fluid may have to be distilled before use to remove the heptane often included in the starter fluid.

jon

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 12:25:04 AM »
it works but not as well as diethyl ether ether holds the no2/no3 gas complex very well
the addition should be done so the the h2so4 is dripped below the organic phase to avoid polymerization of the alkene.
and you are absolutely right about the ether and cystal formation.
nice to have a trained chemist here, a breath of fresh air you are.
also when you quench the psudonitrosite with a base to make the nitro alkene acidify it quickly (as soon as it goes into solution) because the base will cause scission at the benzylic carbon.
speed and temperature are key.  
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 12:26:57 AM by jon »

Sedit

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2010, 12:55:18 AM »
DOS you may want to look around for alternative means of Nitros acid synthesis. One form I have toyed around with that appears effective is the use of Sodium Metabisulfite to reduce HNO3 to Nitros acid. It is an old preperation for the formation of Diazonium compounds. I also remember someone attempting to form the psuedonitrosite from calamus oil without much success at all after repeated attempts. The yeilds where always very low.
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atara

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2010, 03:07:50 AM »
As I interpreted it, DOS was using nitrogen dioxide, bypassing nitrite.

You might be able to get nitrites by hydrolysing nitrosyl chloride, I guess.

jon

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2010, 06:07:12 AM »
no no nitrous acid loses water and gasses off as that complex, ether holds the gas well.
hexane and gas goes bye bye.
an easy way to do this is to add iodine mono nitrite across the double bond followed by base catalyzed elimination

director of sound

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2010, 07:36:14 AM »
i envisioned a concentrated solution of sodium nitrite with suspended iron filings that the 37%+ H2SO4 was added to dropwise. initially the NO2 formed would oxidize in the flask temporarily creating a vacuum so you would have to be sure of positive  gas flow before submerging the tube into the solution of diethyl ether and calamus oil (or distilled asarone) after there is flow it would be nearly all N2O3 gas with very little NO. ill have to draw up the lab setup idea i have for the production of pseudonitrosites and post it here in a little while. with the setup i had in mind the excess N2O3 would first be bubbled through sulfuric acid generating nitric acid and hydrogen sulfide which would then be bubbled through say an 8M solution of sodium hydroxide generating sodium nitrate and sodium sulfate, if anything made it past that the rest of the gases are passed through a drying tube packed with sodium hydroxide which would neutralize anything else so no hood would even be necessary. as for quenching the pseudonitrosite, that would be done in around a .5M to 1M sodium hydroxide solution chilled to 10*C or below. the quench should be instantaneous so the B-nitros would be filtered and rinsed with dilute hydrochloric or acetic acid, maybe even the dilute nitric acid made in the process along with the pseudonitrosite. followed by a recrystalization from boiling methanol to remove any traces of acid left over.

jon

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2010, 08:12:58 AM »
umm when quenching i'd recommend using potassium hydroxide for some reason yeilds are lower with sodium hydroxide.
i don't know why.
and running H2S gas through NaOH would generate sodium sulfides and not sulfates.
and if it's cold enough you don't have to worry about NO gas forming.
i see your scheme though it's smart and avoids contact with H2SO4 directly but that's the whole reason you drip the h2so4 below the ether phase and into the aqueous phase *slowly* to keep concentrated h2so4 coming into contact with the organics.
and to keep the overall acid concentration low.

director of sound

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2010, 08:17:13 AM »

Wizard X

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2010, 08:20:00 AM »
Dinitrogen trioxide is the chemical compound with the formula N2O3. This deep blue liquid is one of binary nitrogen oxides. It forms upon mixing equal parts of nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide and cooling the mixture below ?21 °C (?6 °F).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinitrogen_trioxide

When a mixture of equal parts of nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide, NO2, is cooled to -21 C (-6 F), the gases form dinitrogen trioxide, a blue liquid consisting of N2O3 molecules. This molecule exists only in the liquid and solid states. When heated, it forms a mixture of NO and NO2.

http://www.c-f-c.com/supportdocs/nitrogen_oxi.htm
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jon

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2010, 10:24:22 AM »
wizard your name aptly describes you.

director of sound

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2010, 09:04:29 PM »
as for what wizard said that would be easy enough to cool the ethereal solution of calamus oil to -6F or below with ice and rock salt thereby causing the NO2 and NO gas to condense into dinitrogen trioxide inside the solution. maybe adding a calcium chloride or magnesuim sulfate drying tube to the gas line before the calamus oil would help with keeping it anhydrous. higher yields could probilly be expected when using anhydrous nitrous acid in the solution rather than having the ether/oil mix floating on top of the H2SO4/NaNO2 mix possibly hurting your yield due to the H2SO4 and high moisture conditions. it would be much easier to get a cleaner product that way too as all the ether could be removed by filtration and vacuum drying leaving just the pseudonitrosite and unreacted asarone that would be removed when it is converted to the B-nitro and recrystallized from methanol.

director of sound

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2010, 07:29:16 PM »
id figure something like this using the same setup i posted earlier. it might be better on a smaller scale using 150ml-500ml flasks.  the first flask would be charged with dry sodium nitrite and 37%+ H2SO4 in the dropping funnel. as the acid is dropped in making NO and NO2 any nitrous acid formed between the gases and small amounts of water from the H2SO4 should stay in that flask allowing fairly dry gases to cross over to the second flask containing the previously dried ether/oil mix (over anhd. MgSO4) which is placed in a cooling bath of ice and calcium chloride which will allow it to get to -40*c. at that temperature the dry NO/NO2 complex will condense into anhydrous nitrous acid (N2O3) dissolved in the ether solution. making concentrations much higher and even through out the solution more so than anyone could hope to achieve if the ether/oil was floating on an aqueous NaNO2/H2SO4 solution. the reaction to the pseudonitrosite should proceed rather quickly with heavy precipitation of product, even a dropping funnel could be added to the second flask to make additions of more asarone as the asarone in solution is used up. from there the un-used gases would be neutralized as they pass through the rest of the setup. the pseudonitrosite would be vacuum filtered while cold and ground and rinsed with fresh cold ether before being cautiously added to a .5M NaOH solution chilled to 5*C or less. instantaneous reduction to the B-nitro should occur resulting in bright yellow/orange crystals (as well as day-glo green under UV). filter it fast to get it away from the base and wash first with a 1M (5%) HCl solution chilled to 5*C then with cold water and finally with ice cold methanol (at least -10*C). the now clean acid free B-nitro would be recrystallized form boiling methanol for additional purity. from there dissolve 5g or so of your B-nitro in 200ml ethanol or methanol with 30ml 5M HCl. make up your amalgam (rinsing it clean before you toss it in the solution) i could see it taking about 20g maybe 30g but more could be made as backup. keep the temp right around 50*C or less. over the course of 1.5-2hr the solution should become clear as the B-nitro is used up, add more aluminum amalgam if it has not gone clear by 2hr.  cautiously add 2M NaOH to the solution to put it past neutral and filter out the aluminum gunk the best you can and then acidify it and extract with ether to remove trace amounts of unused B-nitro. re-basify and extract with 3 100ml portions chloroform or TCE dry the chloroform extracts and gas with HCL or acidify with 37% H2SO4 dropwise. i cannot speculate on yields at this time because it is untested for now... but i would expect at least 50% or better
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 07:39:42 PM by director of sound »

jon

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2010, 09:03:59 PM »
sounds like you have a pretty sharp plan.
i'd just add crushed ice and quench the base as soon as **it dissolves** you won't be able to filter anything because the organic nitrite will be in the form of a nitronate salt which is water soluble.

also this is a quick and clean way to reduce nitropropenes in high yeild

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/nitro2amine.nabh4-nicl2.html
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 11:15:49 PM by jon »

Sedit

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2010, 12:57:44 AM »
Your worried about contact of H2SO4 yet I have already explained how you can form your nitros acid solution prior to stirring with the oil/ether mixture. No Sulfuric acid needed only reduction of nitric acid, prior to the addition of the alkene, using metabisulfites. Its a sure shot for GABA Diazotation and its to simple to not attempts a small scale proof of concept for yourself before attempting anything more complicated such as gasous N2O3.

I am also confused as to why the need for the Fe on the nitrites. What does this serve?
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director of sound

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2010, 09:16:47 AM »
the Fe is used when using sodium nitrate. the reaction between the H2SO4 and NaNO3 proceeds slowly,  but if iron is introduced either in the form of iron filings or steel wool it catalyzes the reaction and reduces excess sulfuric acid into iron sulfate. it allows the generation of N2O3 gas to be controllable if one was to use steel wool (or filings if you have a powder addition funnel). you would just lower a piece attached to a stir rod into the solution as the gas is needed.

your Na2S2O5 / HNO3 would work but i believe the reason low yields have been encountered is because of the aqueous conditions produced by a solution like that. excess water, even the small amount of the azeotrope between the ether will drastically lower the solubility of the N2O3 gas. if anhydrous conditions are kept i would expect a much higher yield.

Sedit

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2010, 02:44:10 PM »
You said Nitrites in your post and I assumed thats what you ment so when I get time I will correct it.

The low yeilds I believe are due to hinderence and not so much being a biphasic mixture. If it where due to the methods then it would not have acceptable yeilds on other substrates.
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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2010, 12:37:10 AM »
I tried the proposed reactions scheme several months ago and I seem to have failed. Everything went well, I made the pseudonitorsite bith calamus oil, EtO and sodium nitrite, I made the nitropropene by decomposing the pseudonitrosite with NaOH (yielding a bright yellow product), and I attempted Al/Hg reduction on the nitropropene. However when I tried to isolate the TMA-2 as the hydrochloride salt by bubbling HCl gas through my nonpolar solvent (xylene) the xylene turned a reddish color and a black/red gummy precipitate formed. I attempted to clean the precipitate with A/B extraction, and managed to get it into a red/black powder.

20mg bioassay proved activity, but the effects seemed distinctly different than reported effects. Effects came on after about 1 hour, I felt giggly, slightly euphoric, stimulated, difficulty sleeping. It was mild but lasted for quite a while.

I still have the compound perhaps I will run a TLC on it or see if I can get a GC/MS NMR analysis. I have decided to stop pursing this route because I have acquired about 40-50g of pure 2,4,5-trimethoxybenzaldehyde.

director of sound

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Re: TMA-2 from calamus oil by psuedonitrosite and aluminum amalgam thread.
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2010, 12:46:58 AM »
several papers i have read all used 1,1,1-TCE to pull the freebase out of the Hg/Al dried it and salted with consentrated sulfuric acid. the only one i came across that used HCl was shulgins method where he stripped the solvent under vacuum dissolved the freebase in IPA and neutralized with HCL before adding 1500ml or so of ether to the solution before it crashed out as an oil that upon stirring crystallized.