Author Topic: Novel white phosphorus production scheme  (Read 194 times)

solidstone

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Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« on: October 16, 2010, 12:33:20 AM »
So, I just spent far to many hours reading about routes to phosphorous, thought it might be a good discussion topic.  Useful for making PCl3, PCl5, P2O5, and of cours P4.

The method that stuck out to me was the microwave route. 
Activated Charcoal
Phosphoric acid
nuke the sucker for 5 minutes or so.

No I have heard of this working, but it appears most hobbyist are of the faint of heart and don't necessarily want phosphorous compounds in, near or around them (who can blame em').  Well I thought up an adaption to the procedure and think it could remedy some of the sloppiness without requiring dangerous microwave drilling/modification.

So, the thought is to completely contain the reaction.  The problem would be how to trap the phosphorous when every things HOT, well simply put, an icebath.  The ice will melt slowly(because of the crystalline lattice it warms far slower then water) but the water will not boil condensing the phosphorous.

So first vessel sealed with an outlet connect to a tube.  tube carries gas to next vessel which is bubbled through the ice water.  That vessel has an outlet which is connected to a... balloon.  The balloon serves to contain all gaseous material making this experiment more user friendly.once complete, everything is removed from the microwave.  The balloon can be removed and either bubbled through the ice water again to pick up any remaining P4 or I believe you could separate out the P2O4 perhaps by freezing(would it work out that way?).  Or I suppose you could just take the gaseous mixture of P2O4 and red phosphorous and further react it with chlorine gas.

whole reaction can be visually monitored through the melting of the ice cubes and the volume of the gas in the balloon.  It can be aborted at any point.

Any bets whether this pipe dream will pan out?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6207024.html  reference for microwave reaction.

Vesp

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2010, 12:56:06 AM »
Have you read the sciencemadness thread pertaining to phosphorous production? I believe it is a sticky, and I also believe some of the members have succeeded but not with great results.
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solidstone

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2010, 01:18:51 AM »
I read all 28 pages today.  4 hours later this was my thought on it.  Everyone over there really embraces the Al/NaPO3/SiO2 route or the Ca3(PO4)2 route (more or less the same).  I'm not terribly taken by these methods for there use of arc furnaces and tube furnaces, or in one instance use of ungodly amounts of acetylene.

I am hoping the method I described works, even if the yield is miniscule.  It takes 5 minutes... You can just keep repeating the procedure and stockpiling the filled balloons and combining the P4 in water until you have yielded a satisfactory quantity to process.  My biggest concern is that the gaseous temperature will exceed rubbers melting temp, but with the ice bath thats not likely.  As far as I can tell gaseous don't really heat significantly in the microwave rather just expand there volume.

Vesp

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2010, 07:39:30 AM »
Isn't the gas expanding the same as it getting hot? :)

I personally think a microwave type furnace using silicon carbide and being rigged to cool off the phosphorous that formed would be good.
A metal retort with SiC coating on the outside in the place it needs the heat would be cool, Assuming that the SiC can actually/effectively get everything hot enough.

What is the temperature needed for the Al/NaPO3/SiO2 mixture to produce phosphorous?
NaPO3? Doesn't seem very easy to get.
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solidstone

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2010, 08:45:07 AM »
I think NaPO3 is not the way to go, however ca3(PO4)2 makes more sense as it's readily available.  I believe 1100 degrees C are necessary.

and you of course are right, I think my mind is atrophying from staring at molecules all day.  I'm thinking of being a little reckless and giving this a test run tomorrow.  Any last cautions before I give it a go?

I was also thinking that if this closed system doesn't work so well I was thinking just do the reaction in excess with a larger ice bath.  If I had to dedicate an outside microwave to phosphorous that wouldn't be a terrible loss.  Open ventilate repeat, then just keep collecting carefully.  I think this could be a messier way to quickly go about this.  I would prefer to do this cleanly though.

Vesp

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2010, 06:45:42 PM »
Let us know how it goes, and of course - read about the dangers of all of the chemicals that will be produced, what can happen when exposed to them for short and long term, etc.
best of luck! Probably you shouldn't try to produce the white phosphorous in your house, if you have that in mind?
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solidstone

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2010, 07:01:57 PM »
Of course not! lol
I plan on doing a micro scale try in the microwave outside.

I also bought some heavy pipe today, and I am thinking about trying the Calcium phosphate method by burying my metal pipe in a fire pit I have with the outlet bubbling through some ice water, if this works it might be a safer route, and considering the cost of triple phosphate fertilizer potentially a much cheaper method.

I also will be using my ghetto respirator.  essentially just a long stretch of plastic tubing that I can breath through to get air from substantially far away from were I'm working lol, it seems to work looks goofy as hell though.

xxx

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2010, 03:31:26 PM »
Ok, wait a second. So, Solidstone. Are you telling me, I can just get the right ratio of Activated charcoal to phosphoric acid, bung it in the microwave, and et-viola some white phosphorous will be formed? I like the simplicity of it, sure, but I also assume the words 'Inert Atmosphere' are kinda important inside that microwave - cannot imagine a microwave filled with WP going up is pleasant to be near!

solidstone

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 01:51:17 AM »
Yes the microwave supposedly works but not without some troubles that make it a pain.  I gave it a go last night and got a negligible amount of white phosphorus.  I used nalgenes as my vessels and the one melted...  The whole method kind of sketches me out abit after trying it.  The size constraint of a microwave is also kind of a pain.

I am thinking I will try the calcium phosphate method next.  I did some research and it appears that charcoal should burn hot enough for the reaction rather then using an arc furnace, so I'm going to give that a try next weekend.

Vesp

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2010, 02:14:29 AM »
Could you please elaborate on your negligible amount of phosphorous? What did the reaction look like? Did the activated carbon spark at all? How hot did it get?
What ways do you think it could be improved?
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xxx

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2010, 12:14:35 PM »
...and I was convinced that carbon turned to some funky plasma stuff in a microwave (after seeing matches burn in microwave). How did this experiment work? Any photos so I could attempt replicating it in a cheap microwave? How did you know it was indeed WP?

solidstone

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2010, 04:17:23 PM »
Negligible amounts were likely a few milligrams.

My mistake was using nalgenes for my reaction vessels rather then glassware.  They melted which brought the experiment to an end.  I used thick plastic tubing to connect two nalgenes with an airtight seal.  The one had an ice bath the other phosphoric acid and crushed charcoal. 

The reason I suspected WP other then the small suspect looking material was ignition of the vapor after pulled out of the microwave gave a convincing flame. personally I think the microwave might be a bit to small for anything terribly useful, but I will re-attempt it once I get some appropriate glassware.

I think I'm going to try the sodium metaphosphate method using charcoal for my heat source.  That seems more promising to me.

Tsathoggua

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2010, 05:28:36 PM »
Bear in mind that liquified almost anhydrous phosphoric acid or polyphosphoric is going to a hell of a lot of damage to glassware potentially, IIRC it eats its way through glass.

Microwave heating can cause intense local hotspots also, in the case of fused salts, they can get point-heated to the point where temperature alone is sufficient to burn through borosillicate glass.

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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2010, 07:28:11 AM »
"Bear in mind that liquified almost anhydrous phosphoric acid or polyphosphoric is going to a hell of a lot of damage to glassware potentially, IIRC it eats its way through glass." besides it makes big bulks
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solidstone

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2010, 05:32:50 AM »
I had an interesting thought.  Thermite + Calcium phosphate in a graphite crucible.  the crucible connected to a pipe and filtered through an ice bath.  I think this could work in high yields and quickly.

Vesp

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2010, 05:39:31 AM »
That is an interesting thought! seems like it may work.
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solidstone

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Re: Novel white phosphorus production scheme
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2010, 05:46:26 AM »
The ideal crucible is available on everyones favorite auction site (I know I know... but its a crucible!), as is premixed thermite (lol'd when I saw that on there, I'd be a bit more concerned about picking that up).

I was thinking aluminum pipe would be the best as I doubt it wouldn't melt from the vapor heat.  Any other ideas for the piping?  I suppose a graphite rod could be obtained and drilled for the piping.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 05:52:18 AM by solidstone »