Author Topic: Gallium/Al reduction  (Read 207 times)

overunity33

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Gallium/Al reduction
« on: October 25, 2010, 08:26:47 AM »
I read an interesting post at scimad that mentioned mixing molten aluminum with galinstan(66.5% galium, 20.5% indium 13% tin), cooling and then dropping it into impure nitromethane to produce a steady stream of methylamine gas.  Does anyone have advice for this type of reduction?  Could anyone explain why galinstan is prefered over plain galium, is this to make treating aluminium easier? If you are melting them together it shouldn't matter,correct?  Ga has a max solubility of 9% in aluminium, much more then that and you will have a liquid when your reaction heats up, maybe this is a good thing?  This alloy seems to have a lot of potential...

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14173
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1261&page=5#pid188279
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11687
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2010/0028255.html
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 10:54:57 AM by overunity33 »

akcom

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Re: Gallium/Al reduction
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2010, 02:34:06 PM »
Why would this be preferred to an Al/Hg reduction?  As they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it

java

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Re: Gallium/Al reduction
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2010, 02:51:27 PM »
......"if it ain't broke don't fix it", but if things can be improved less toxic and  more available, then it's called progress, hence it's how we develop better and more available resources in this clandestine world of chemistry.......also interesting using copper sulfate as reported in another thread to amalgamate aluminum.......java
¡Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!.Emiliano ZapataIt is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!.......

Wizard X

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Re: Gallium/Al reduction
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2010, 10:40:17 PM »
nitromethane to methylamine.

Catalytic reduction.
Electrochemical reduction.
Dissolving Metal reduction.
Albert Einstein - "Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds."

overunity33

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Re: Gallium/Al reduction
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2010, 01:09:44 AM »
I can see this being better then al/hg because it does not require thin pieces of aluminium (foil).  How long would it take you to prepare enough foil to reduce 1kg of nitromethane?  With Al/Ga you would simply melt the two together and drop the chunk into solution.  Alternatively it can be casted while still hot into any shape you would like.  Also the reaction is apparently much more vigorous then al/hg so less surface area is required.  Couple that with the very low toxicity of gallium compared to mercury and I ask you: why not?

Could someone post an experimental al/hg reduction of nitromethane to metylamine freebase writeup?  Im interested because someone mentioned on scimad that an acid would need to be added to the nitromethane for this reduction to work, I just don't think that makes sense since the al/hg reduction has been proven to work without acid or the presence of water which is counter intuitive.  Shouldn't an alcohol be present? 

This makes me think you can just grab a few gallons of otc nitro (with a healthy methanol content), drop in an al/ga plug and pipe this gas into hcl to get very pure methylamine.hcl or pipe it into very cold methanol for immediate use via nabh4.  This would eliminate the distillation of nitromethane which scares many-a bee.

akcom

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Re: Gallium/Al reduction
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2010, 03:28:02 AM »
Quote
Also the reaction is apparently much more vigorous then al/hg so less surface area is required.
...
This would eliminate the distillation of nitromethane which scares many-a bee
You don't want to distill MeNO2 but you're completing willing to drop chunks of a dangerously reactive reducing agent into a solution of it?  I don't get it.

There are tons of better reduction mechanisms available, as WizX so helpfully pointed out.  Honestly, I'm not familiar with the reduction of imines but I know for sure that Sn + HCl will reduce nitromethane to methylamine without a problem.  It's a lot less messy than Al/(Hg/Ga).  But hey, I guess it never hurts to have alternatives.  Even if it involves making an already vigorous reaction even more dangerous.

Sedit

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Re: Gallium/Al reduction
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2010, 03:57:59 AM »
The reason behind the use of Al/Hg is so that the MeNO2 and the subsequently formed imine can be reduced at the same time, IE instead of using MeNH2 in a reductive amination people use Nitromethane at the cost of lowered yeilds and hotter reaction.

You are correct though in that dissolving metal reductions handle Nitromethane to methylamine quite well if not better since you are not dealling with competing reactions as you are with a one pot imine reduction.
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overunity33

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Re: Gallium/Al reduction
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2010, 04:52:38 AM »
Thank you wizard X for that by the way..

Quote
You don't want to distill MeNO2 but you're completing willing to drop chunks of a dangerously reactive reducing agent into a solution of it?  I don't get it.

I was thinking of it from a scaled up perspective.  Having 5L of nitromethane distilling over a hotplate in a glass setup is going to be scary as hell to work around and an expensive setup.

Having 100L of it in a HDPE container sitting in a large cooled recirculating water bath with a large slug of al/ga that could be instantly removed from the solution via solenoid controlled with a cheap PID temperature controller setup would be cheaper.  You could pipe the freebase into an enormous volume of methanol or water solution cooled on the same ice bath.  55 gallon drum of methylamine solution, set it and forget it.


akcom

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Re: Gallium/Al reduction
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2010, 09:25:19 PM »
Without any sort of open flame or other source of ignition, there is nothing to be scared of.  So unless you're "cooking" on a stove top, it's really a non issue.

Why would someone pay close to 2000 dollars for 200L of MeNO2 when the equivalent of hexamine is so much cheaper and the reaction so much easier to  control?

Sedit

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Re: Gallium/Al reduction
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2010, 12:27:24 AM »
Not to mention solvalysis of Sulfamic acid in MeOH followed by thermal rearrangement of the formed Ammonia methylsulfate produces messloads of MeNH2*HSO4 dirt cheep as well.

Im all for seeing someone produce a practical Gallium reduction writeup since I have yet to see one and am sure it can be done but the practicality of using it to produce Methylamine is out of the question.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

akcom

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Re: Gallium/Al reduction
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2010, 01:00:10 AM »
Sedit, I've never been able to make the thermal rearrangement of the ammonium acid sulfate ester happen without losing over 60% of product to the alkene.  Still cheap, but not easy to affect by any means.