Author Topic: glycol rearrangement to mdp2p with HCl  (Read 250 times)

LL080LL

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glycol rearrangement to mdp2p with HCl
« on: April 12, 2011, 04:03:46 AM »
LL080LL here,

with one more question

most of my info is from archived hive/rhodium material. Although the write-ups that made it to rhodium describe
using H2SO4 to rearrange the glycol from the peracid processing of isosafrole if you search the hive posts you
find Chromic extolling the virtues of HCl as a better alternative. This is under Chemistry Discourse, post
No 476334. He says, "HCl is so good it's GOLDEN!".

I took this suggestion recently. The resulting ketone was actually a golden or orange color. Unlike what I'd seen
before (neon green). Any comments? I'm hoping to troubleshoot something

L   

Sedit

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Re: glycol rearrangement to mdp2p with HCl
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 05:01:18 AM »
The color varies so much im convinced that the color is nothing more then a trace contaminate that is producing a form of defraction or more importantly and likely a form of fluorescents meaning the color is determined by the form of light it is viewed in.

I say no matter what you will see each variation beit green or yellow no matter what acid you used to produce the final product.


Anyone here well versed in fluorescents to offer up an explination as to what by product is forming this. Green to yellow is a variation in the electron shells ability to absorb and emit light. I suggest the most likely case is nothing more then the fluorescents being caused by ring cleavage.
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LL080LL

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Re: glycol rearrangement to mdp2p with HCl
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 05:17:38 AM »
I'm wondering. Even though it's an orangey color, when you roll it in the flask the thin film
left has a very faint but definite green hint. It looks pretty enough.

As I wrote I have some troubleshooting to do. The last two portions of mdp2p that I attempted to aminate
just didn't work out. Disappointing. Might have been the aluminum(?). There were several variables in the processing,
so it's not very obvious. And I don't know anyone else doing this, so nowhere to compare notes.

Anyhow, going to crash soon. Cheers. Thanks for the input ;-)

akcom

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Re: glycol rearrangement to mdp2p with HCl
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 05:24:12 AM »
LL, how were your yields with HCl? Mine are 5-10% higher consistently compared to H2SO4.  The orangish color perhaps comes from some dimer product not formed with H2SO4.  After running a single spot sample of MDP2P on a silica column the purified compound retained its original color.  HLPC showed only one contaminant (it looked like a solvent).  MDP2P definitely has color on its own.

Sedit

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Re: glycol rearrangement to mdp2p with HCl
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 05:30:41 AM »
So you are possitive that the product is the fluorescents correct. This makes sense to be honest and could be a good way of determining if the reaction proceeded as planned. Anyone remember NASAs MDP2P? It was so greenish blue it was almost glowing. You can assure there purity was top notch.
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akcom

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Re: glycol rearrangement to mdp2p with HCl
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 02:16:25 PM »
I don't think fluorescence is the right term here.  MDP2P doesn't "fluoresce" under visible light any more than a red can of coke fluoresces.  Anyway, yes the colored fraction was MDP2P.

Sedit

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Re: glycol rearrangement to mdp2p with HCl
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2011, 08:36:47 PM »
Fluorescence is indeed the correct term here and witnessing the way the top layer where the light hits is a clear indicator of this. When the top layer has a thin line that is a different color, normally green, blue, or red, that seems to be luminous you can be pretty confident that under the effects of a UV light the effect will be enhanced 10 fold. Dissolve fluorescence markers in alcohol and look at it under various lighting conditions. Its obvious how so many variations in color can be noted from a single sample just due to the way it reacts with the light source presenting it. Also keep in mind that fluorescence is not limited to the UV spectrum and most if not all objects become fluorescent under various frequencys of the Visible spectrum. It is mearly an absorbtion then re-emittence of a photon at a frequency that differs from that which it absorbed.


Example:

I'm wondering. Even though it's an orangey color, when you roll it in the flask the thin film
left has a very faint but definite green hint. It looks pretty enough.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 08:38:49 PM by Sedit »
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Wizard X

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Re: glycol rearrangement to mdp2p with HCl
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 12:28:43 AM »
Pihkal, MDMA, 109, page 320.

To a well stirred solution of 34 g of 30% hydrogen peroxide in 150 g 80% formic acid there was added, dropwise, a solution of 32.4 g isosafrole in 120 mL acetone at a
rate that kept the reaction mixture from exceeding 40 °C. This required a bit over 1 h, and external cooling was used as necessary. Stirring was continued for 16 h, and care
was taken that the slow exothermic reaction did not cause excess heating. An external bath with running water worked well. During this time the solution progressed from an
orange color to a deep red. All volatile components were removed under vacuum which yielded some 60 g of a very deep red residue. This was dissolved  in 60 mL of MeOH,
treated with 360 mL of 15% H2SO4, and heated for 3 h on the steam bath. After cooling, the reaction mixture was extracted with 3×75 mL Et2O, the pooled extracts washed first with H2O and then with dilute NaOH, and the  solvent removed under vacuum The residue was distilled (at 2.0 mm/108-112 °C, or at about 160 °C at the water pump) to
provide 20.6 g of 3,4-methylenedioxyphenylacetone as a pale yellow oil. The oxime (from hydroxylamine) had a mp of 85-88 °C. The semicarbazone had a mp of 162-163 °C.
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LL080LL

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Re: glycol rearrangement to mdp2p with HCl
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2011, 02:27:52 AM »
Pihkal, MDMA, 109, page 320.

3,4-methylenedioxyphenylacetone as a pale yellow oil

good point

if yellow is good enough for Mr Shulgin then I guess golden/orangey isn't necessarily a bad sign

@akcom re. relative yields, I haven't tried this with H2SO4, and your comment makes me less inclined to try that

thanks all round
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 02:30:59 AM by LL080LL »

dingbow

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Re: glycol rearrangement to mdp2p with HCl
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011, 01:04:37 PM »
have you distilled your ketone? I agree that colour isnt always the best indicator, trace impurities as mentioned can cause different colourations.

If you have distilled your ketone, you can test it with the age old method of creating the bisulfite adduct.