Author Topic: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please  (Read 173 times)

reDEEMed

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Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« on: July 15, 2011, 02:32:03 AM »
I'm finally able to play with my stuff and not worry about unreasonable search and seizure and nosey people who thrive on drama, so I'm ready to play! What are some cool things I can experiment with that aren't drug related, just some basic fun organic reactions that are beginner level that will teach me some things? I don't have the greatest selection of chemicals, but I do have a pretty nice assortment and I can always pick up whatever I need. Of particular interest to me is this big ass bottle of formaldehyde I have. What can I do with some of it? Or, I have a bottle of zinc sulfate that I would like to make into zinc oxide but haven't been able to find a relevant ref. That is definitely a skill I need improvement in, information gathering.

Some of you guys are scary smart, teach me!
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2011, 12:17:06 PM »
You could kill a few people and embalm them perhaps, with that formalin. Mummies would make a great front door decoration :D

If you have any CuSO4, you could play around with copper complexes. I did when I was self-teaching (I still am self teaching mind you, doubt I will ever stop...one can always lean more)

Simple addition of CuSO4 to NH4OH will produce the tetraminecopper (II) complex, other salts can be used. The chlorate was fun, a moderately sensitive primary HE, pale turqoise-blue crystalline compound, resembling flowers of sulfur in appearance when it was produced. IIRC the nitrate was greenish.  Never did succeed in isolating a peroxide, but that wasn't really a subject of much effort, just casual childhood experimenting really, and it wasn't tried with highly concentrated H2O2 or sodium/potassium peroxide.

You could always (carefully) try the classic experiment with iodine, making nitrogen triiodide by addition of ammonia.
That should be done VERY carefully, in small amounts, as it is very, very unstable, doesn't take more than a slight vibration or touch to set it off with a loud bang and decomposition into iodine fumes. It is of no use as a practical explosive though, as it is too sensitive and could never be picked up to pour into a detonator, let alone packed in, sealed, or transported.

Don't bugger about with the equivalent trichloride though, careful addition of Cl2 to ammonium nitrate solution, there is a 'barking dog' lab demo that can safely be performed with it, but anything else, well, not good. It will take your head off, given half a chance, the barking dog demo is done in a test tube, creates nitrogen trichloride in tiny droplets, which explode with a flash of light as soon as they are formed.

Thermite is another simple, and quite useful one, a mixture of a metal oxide and aluminium powder, although very hard to ignite (I have held a blowtorch to a lead oxide thermite, and it took several minutes before it got hot enough to ignite. A magnesium strip stuck into it will do it, but I prefer a mixture of permanganate and sugar, or chlorate and sugar, mixed with NaCl at around 40-50% the weight of the chlorate to dampen the burn rate, and make it a slow burning incendiary rather than anything thats likely to go off with a bang (and disperse the thermite where it isn't wanted)

The classic mixture is Al and iron oxide, the aluminium acting as a powerful reducing agent, and scavenging the oxygen from the metal oxide, giving an alumina slag, molten metal, and intense heat. Thermite can be used for casting, for obtaining various metals from their oxides, for cutting metal, or of course, for obliterating things that piss you off. Remember though, once it gets started and the thermite is lit, it is NOT going to be put out until it burns itself out. It will split CO2 from a fire extinguisher and just get supplied with a burst of oxygen, although its capable of burning in anoxic environments, as the reaction supplies its own O2. It will burn under water, splitting off H and O, and do very unpleasant things to halocarbon fire extingisher discharges, doesn't take much of an imagination to figure out hte sort of nasty things that could come from a bunch of fluorinated halocarbons (halons) at temperatures of a couple of thousand degrees C.

So, don't light it, if you figure you might not want it burning, as you won't put it out by any means. AFAIK, even dumping sand over it, would just result in the sand fusing to a glass.

Copper thermites are a bit different to most, and apparently, although I have never done it, will go off with a flash and explode, even when unconfined.

I have read interesting things about nanothermites also, there has been a lot of research done into molecular nanocomposites, where instead of merely ground up Al and an oxide, the aluminium atoms are coated with fine layers, on the nanoscale, of oxides, these burn much faster, and more intense, the papers are around if you look online as for the preparation of such nano-thermites.

Don't search for 'nano thermite' though, that will come up with a metric arseload of 9-11 conspiracy discussions, use the term 'metastable intermetallic composites' instead to come up with the actual research.

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I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

reDEEMed

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Re: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2011, 12:46:48 PM »
I'm not much of a pyro, but that sounds fun nonetheless :D

Your idea of trying to make different copper salts sounds interesting, maybe I could do this with my zinc sulfate and turn it to the oxide. It would be that much cooler if I figured out how to do it without a specific ref. You don't know it, but I've been on the hunt for jellyfish tentacles since I read your post directed at TLS to get even with his doctor lol. I know, sick. But, that's interesting to me, I can't help it.

In my new town we have a lab supply place with a showroom which I visited yesterday and bought a good assortment of chemicals and little odds and ends. Lucky for me the guy only wanted to chat about my purchase of agar and petri dishes. Had he wanted to know more about my interest in the chemicals I would not have known what to say. I had something ready, but I would much rather learn some other stuff and not focus all my hands on effort on things that get me high. It's just that without the structure of a classroom most of the experimental stuff I see online that I can try involves making something that gets you high. I like getting high, don't get me wrong, but I really am after a more general knowledge in addition to learning grandma's recipes for innovative anti-depressants.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

Tsathoggua

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Re: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2011, 02:02:20 PM »
I want to go to oz myself, some time.

Go bug hunting....I want a mouse spider for a pet, although I think I am going to have to settle for a scorpion instead. I have a tank by my computer table, that just needs cleaning out, then a desert habitat, with sand, some plants, and some rocks for a pile, that the critter can hide in and make itself at home. Need a heat mat for the far side of the tank too.

Going to get one of the Parabuthus spp. Probably P.transvaalicus, the south african fat tailed spitting scorpion. Notable for its ability to fire a stream of venom like some cobras, or the mangshan pit viper can.

As for the jellyfish, how effective such a weapon, based on jellyfish venom would be, depends entirely on the species harvested. Dead jellies can still sting, so cruelty to the living creatures can be avoided entirely.

Chironex fleckeri would be the ideal species-lots of large tentacles, and a veritable shitload of nematocysts to harvest. I believe the best way to obtain the venom, would be dialysation across a permeable membrane, there is some research done on that, where they aim to characterise the venom fraction of the jellyfish. I think the cells could effectively bee lysed to free the venom from the unfired nematocysts, without damaging the delicate venom, as they are heat-sensitive proteins, either by use of a protease, potentially, but one would have to read up on the nature of the venom, before deciding on a suitably selective protease, to lyse the cell tissue, without damaging the venom within.

Something like sphingomyelinase-D, would work on mammalian tissue, I'm not sure what the flesh of jellyfish is composed of, it may work it may not. Could be obtained from a spider species that is available in the exotic pet trade, a relative of the notorious brown recluse spider...Sicarius spp. such as S.hahnii or S.terrosus. Sicarius, meaning 'assassin' is a sister genus to Loxoceles, but produces a massive quantity of venom, relative to the recluses.

A bite from one of those buggers is likely to kill, no antidote exists currently, they are usually peaceful spiders, but if aggravated can get pissy. The venom would melt flesh, a couple of reports of bites exist, one guy died, another lost an arm. Toxicity is quite likely equal to that of a puff adder, or saw scaled viper.

Alternatively, and likely easier, would bee to freeze the tentacle samples, and thaw them quickly, filter mechanically, dialyse the venom, carefully, in buffered saline, then use electrophoresis to purify it, prior to incorporating it into some form of covert delivery device. I wonder....if such a protein as the cardioactive fraction from Chironex venom would be too big to be delivered transdermally in DMSO?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004101010700462X Partial purification of the haemolysins from Chironex fleckeri venom

The cardiotoxin would probably be the best practical fraction to use, its extremely potent, capable of killing within a couple of minutes. It is extremely thermolabile, however, and I just read, that freeze-thawing damages it somewhat, Sonication, and manual grinding in a mortar and pestle seems to work, to produce a very crude venom extract, when done under phosphate buffered saline. This could, I think, then be dialysed and purified via electrophoresis in PBS.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11199528

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8105563 A non-lethal method of venom collection via electrostimulation of sea anenomes, I imagine it would work on jellyfish also.

There are a lot of marine biotoxins with extreme potency, palytoxin might be one to go for...zoanthid corals of the genus Palythoa are available in the marine pet trade. Some people have had problems with them while transfering the zoanthids to new habitats, or if one is wounded, and someone is then exposed to the water, either directly, or by aerosol inhalation.

Palytoxin is about as lethal as you can get, it operates on sodium/potassium  pump proteins and forces an open state, frying the ion gradient of pretty much all cells, binding to Na+,K+-ATPase and actually changing the transporter protein into an ion channel. Amazing. And deadly. Palytoxin is an extremely potent vasoconstrictor, a lethal dose for a human, apparently, is likely to between 2-60ish micrograms, injected IM or SC. 2ug is likely, via aerosol to produce toxicity.

Symptoms are rhabdomyolysis, and an acute heart attack, caused by constriction of the aorta, mycocardial damage is likely also if the victim survives for more than a few minutes.
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

nk40ouvm

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Re: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2011, 11:19:19 PM »
You can do reactions that are both educational and relevant to future drug chemistry, if you ever go that route, without risking legal hot water.

For example, you can try the Leuckart reaction on completely non-drug-related substrates.
You can depolymerize polystyerene to the monomer.
You can make hexamine with your formaldehyde.
You can practice isolating natural products from mixtures (i.e. piperine from pepper, pure amino acids from nutritional supplement capsules, caffeine from coffee, etc.)
You can try decarboxylating common amino acids to amines.
You can run the Reimer–Tiemann reaction on common phenolic substrates. If you don't have the chloroform you can practice making that from acetone and hypochlorite too.

All the chemistry techniques you need to make drugs are explained in completely respectable, mainstream academic books and journals. Practice chemistry in the relevant areas first, without risking any drug regulations. There's no need (and much risk) in stockpiling drug precursors and "underground" books by Otto Snow, Uncle Fester, Strike, etc. before you've developed some chemistry skills with legal, common teaching exercises.

I don't know what your budget, reagent, and equipment limits are like. I suggest looking first at activities published for students, like activities in the Journal of Chemical Education and textbooks like Fieser's Experiments in Organic Chemistry. These procedures have been confirmed many times and are designed so that beginning chemists can handle them. Slightly more advanced is running procedures from (e.g.) Organic Syntheses or Inorganic Syntheses, where you can be sure that the procedure is reliable but the chemist is expected to have more experience and understanding. Then, more adventurous yet, you can move on to procedures from chemistry research journals, patents, and things written by strangers on the Internet.

Good luck!

Edit: I should add, if you have an affordable opportunity to take an organic chemistry class with a lab section, take it. It's a lot easier to begin with real equipment and later figure out how to adapt to improvised conditions than to try to follow a textbook at the same time you're trying to figure out what combination of mason jars and duct tape most effectively substitutes for professional equipment.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 11:29:05 PM by nk40ouvm »

reDEEMed

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Re: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2011, 01:52:33 PM »
Nice reply nk, thanks! I have actually thought about the styrene from cups before and not long ago actually. I do have chloroform and lots of cool solvents n such. I also have about any glass someone with my experience level would be expected to have, maybe even more. Hmmm, hexamine.....

Thanks guys. Don't hesitate to add more if you think of em!
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

Shake

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Re: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2011, 12:04:06 PM »
Totally Redeemed yourself!

reDEEMed

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Re: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2011, 09:16:34 PM »
You realize I own a moped, right? I aint afraid to ride that fucker to Australia.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

reDEEMed

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Re: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2011, 04:01:57 AM »
Quote
You can depolymerize polystyerene to the monomer.

I really wanna know why this has been gnawing at my brain for a good month, before I even moved, before you ever mentioned it. I am somewhat obsessed with this goal.

My chemical collection has grown a bit more and I'm starting to get comfortable with my equipment. The time of ridiculous experimentation draweth nigh.

Funny story about chemicals- I had ordered me a couple -10c-400c thermometers because UPS smashed the one I had. Turns out they were on clearance and only $25 each, for mercury, not alcohol. Anyway, I go pick them up and of course I can't walk in that heaven on earth without buying something else. First thing I notice is this guy in his twenties or so, full sleeves on both arms looking guiltier than fuck. The cashier gets his chems in a bag and dude just bolts. It was so obvious he was doing something his mom would probably not approve of. The guy that owns the place just looks at me and starts laughing and we had a good chuckle at the whole scene. I've found the owner of this place to be pretty cool and easy to talk to. He doesn't pry and ask questions, he's a business man, plain and simple. I buy a couple bottles and a nice graduated cylinder, take my thermometers and leave, forgetting my additional items of course. Before I even get home I have a voicemail that I forgot my shit, so I go back a couple hours later when I get time. When I walk in this time the first thing I see are badges and guns. I just ignored them and grabbed a couple more items (clamps for my stands) and head to the register. Well the cops are there buying sulfur and something else, two little bottles of chemicals. I start watching them and they are just as amazed at the place as I am. They aren't paying a bit of attention to anything. They are both wandering around ogling over all the nice shit like kids picking out christmas presents. There is no tension, nobody is looking out of the corners of their eyes, everything is as it should be.

I think I love my new home.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

Tsathoggua

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Re: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2011, 09:29:50 PM »
Did you happen to notice what the guilty looking bugger was upto? odd to see the filth buying anything there. Bet the hypocritical ratbastards were making something similar themselves. Hopefully at least one of the bottles was fluoroacetate, or something equally horrid, and I sincerely hope they choke to death on it, whatever it was.
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

reDEEMed

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Re: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2011, 10:20:02 PM »
I feel you on that. I'm not a fan of law enforcement, but as long as they leave me the fuck alone, I can live and let live. They had less than zero interest in what I was buying or what anybody else in the  store was doing. It really didn't have that feel of picking up work supplies. What ever these guys were doing, it was a personal project, that's just my feeling. I didn't happen to see what the one kid was buying earlier that day, a couple 1000ml bottles of liquid and a few dry chemicals, not unlike my usual take. It was funny though, he was so fucking guilty, it was lol worthy.

I was in love with this place the first time I walked in, but now it's worse. After looking around online for some chemicals I want and seeing that they are near impossible to find, then looking at my sheet they gave me at the store that has all the chems they stock I'm really surprised. I can get some pretty fun things right over the counter here. It's really more than I had ever hoped for. Plus, as I said earlier, there is not that tense paranoid feeling when shopping in there. Everybody is just cool as fuck and they love science, period! I don't see me ever moving. I was going to move back to the southeast at some point, but not now. I have a rather large personal debt to take care of, but after that I'm gonna dig in here and I aint leavin'.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

JustDreaming

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Re: Give me some ideas for hands on learning, please
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2011, 06:32:46 AM »
I've had a lot of fun crafting ways to prepare ionic compounds in my early days(which I am just now stepping out of). Cu(ii)(C2H3O2)2 was a fun little one to figure out! Fe(ii)SO4 was a little tricky as well(also forms a cool metal complex with ammonia). Those were two very valuable inorganic excercises I did OTC, by my own means(which were used in organic experiments later). Looked up a proper procedure AFTER completion. Doing that was critical, and I made a ''better'' method than the books was a rewarding feeling(at least for the one Fe(ii) compound). Some people do soduku's, some people play with chemicals hehe.

Or some basic organic reactions(what everyone is most interested in :p). Though it's always scary to suggest organic reactions and preparations to people that are new to the arena. It can be dangerous. Sulfonation of toluene to make TsOH was a good one and a useful reagent, basic esterifications(ethyl sulfate, etc), Distillations, etc.

Basically prepare reagents(for later), and purify otc compounds that interest you. Thats where I started :) and I think I'm doing okay.
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