Author Topic: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..  (Read 182 times)

Shake

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So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« on: July 20, 2011, 03:26:33 AM »

I think there is way too many spoon feed write ups of difficult and perhaps dangerous reactions and procedures compared with the amount of lab safety guidlines and techniques...

seriously, anything can be dangerous, and youll get people saying distilling nitro is dangerous for example and youll get others that have done it heaps of times.

So when you mix nitromethane and sodium hydroxide and you get a brown/red cake, people say it migfht be dangerous and you tend to take it lightly becasue they pretty much say everything is dangerous..

i believe almost any write up that is made understandable to the everyday person should include full lab safety guidelines.. like a simple procedure like a solvent extraction and evaporation, its when people light up a ciggarette or something in the same room that thier lab blows up..

Tsathoggua

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2011, 03:59:25 AM »
When YOU mix nitromethane and sodium hydroxide *I* run like hell I don't wait to see what color the filter cake looks like....
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reDEEMed

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2011, 03:48:06 PM »
Good topic. You and I have discussed this before, Shake. I think we are in agreement that you can get pretty hurt up pretty quick by doing something that seems harmless. The problem is, as I know you know, is that people over use the safety shit and you just end up ignoring it when you really should have listened. I hate that. Yeah, tell me if something is dangerous, but be reasonable. If i tell someone I'm going to the store for smokes, they don't tell me that X amount of people died in car accidents last year. There is an agreed upon risk to driving and it's one I accept. I'm guilty of disregarding safety measures because people sometimes exaggerate the dangers, well they do it alot. There are very few things in a lab that wont hurt or kill you, it just seems that it would be more helpful to reserve the warnings for when they are needed, else it just becomes background noise. Sedit telling me about the dangers of chromic acid is a good example. He didn't go on and on about it but he told me something I didn't know, that it could hurt me and I wouldn't know it for a long time. Now I know. I'll handle it with care and only splash it on people who more than moderately irritate me.

It just gets old when someone asks a question or wants to discuss a synthesis and someone always pops up and has nothing to add except for how dangerous it is. I feel sorry for these people's kids lol.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
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Tsathoggua

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2011, 04:13:21 PM »
Agreeed.

It would soon relegate warnings to 'trite and annoying' if every time somebody used naptha, it came with the warning 'don't pour over self and play with matches' or everytime the carbonate came out 'don't get in your eyes, it may irritate', MSDS panic is a plague if you ask me. And dangerous. Overdoing the warnings is as dangerous as not heeding them, almost.

Yes, some things, like HF, diazomethane or willy pete need the fact acknowledgeing, and newer members or inexperienced members warning, anecdotes maybe also, as in the lab accident thread, can help, for what NOT to do. But to overstate everything, all the time, leads to people potentially getting desensitized to the warnings.

A climate of fear is not good, in the lab, nor is having a superficial layer of tungsten on your bollocks.

But having HF eat your bones from the inside out and drop you dead of a heart attack is worse still (always have a minimum of two packs of calcium gluconate gel with you working with HF of any concentration, even weak 3% stuff. One in the pocket. One in the home, and the optional but very reccomended one, one in the workplace, optional being, if you have a workplace, if you do, then it isn't optional, one on you for instant use, one handy where you are working, and one at home, because dilute hydrofluoric acid can cause an initially relatively painless burn, until it starts leaching Ca++ out of your bones and drops you dead of a heart attack and/or mangles your kidneys. )

MSDS panic, is dangerous though, very dangerous, to noobs especially, those young bees and wasps that just saw that shiny new pair of wings hidden in the back of the shop, glinting away, and the grin on the shopkeeper's face as he winks. Nobody told that young bee about the crusty old bottle of THF in front of them, and what that might mean.....and what that means, is no arms and legs to wear the wings with.

To illustrate just how bad its got, Toady bought two packs of IV saline amps, as he had used his very last one, he doesn't have need of them often, but one in a while, yes they are useful, and the 'water for injections BP' came with a leaflet with warnings:  'you should NOT be given water for injections BP if you are sensitive or allergic to water for injections BP' 'please tell the doctor or nurse if you are taking or have recently taken any other medicines including medicines obtained without a prescription.

A guidance section stating to tell your doctor first before recieving this injection, if pregnant/breast feeding, driving and using heavy machinery, who to tell if you think the doctor/nurse giving the injection gave you too much, and a whole bunch of liscencing and marketing information.

This is for ampoules of sterile water, nothing more, nothing less. The deadly dihydrogen monoxide strikes again!
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

lugh

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2011, 05:33:58 PM »
There are scores of threads on various aspects of safety at the Collective  8)
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Sedit

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2011, 06:20:07 PM »
Quote
MSDS panic, is dangerous though, very dangerous, to noobs especially,

I don't know if I agree, the main reason I even said anything to Redeemed in the Chromic acid thread is because I knew he was new at chemistry and might not fully understand the risk of what he may be dealing with. I would hate for him to see that orange cloud of death show up and wounder what it smelled like.



I do agree however that over doing warnings is counter productive.

If you all feel like gathering them I would be more then willing to place a MSDS sticky up so that we can gather and organize any MSDS that may be of use. It would be a great addition that instead of rehashing the same warnings over and over we could just point to that thread and let everyone determine the safety of the compounds for themselves.
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jon

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2011, 06:41:34 PM »
phosphine is 3 times deadlier than cyanide, of course chemistry is dangerous it just weeds out the incompetent

Enkidu

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2011, 06:43:04 PM »
Isn't there a lab safety book around here?

Tsathoggua

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 07:33:06 PM »
I mean scaremongering, not stating the dangers.

Wasn't referring to that thread-I haven't even read it yet!
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

reDEEMed

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 09:48:28 PM »
HAHA, I'm so the type to wanna sniff an orange cloud. I really would want to.

Note to self: Do not smell orange clouds.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
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Balkan Bonehead

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2011, 11:04:50 PM »
I disagree, we can't assume responsibility for making sure dumbasses don't hurt themselves under any circumstances. It should be assumed that anyone attempting chemistry procedures is familiar with rudimentary safety procedures. The burden should fall upon them to educate themselves, unless the safety concern is unexpected or couldn't be infered from well-known guidelines or compatibilities.

reDEEMed

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 11:20:07 PM »
Everlasting, I think the keyword in your post is 'rudimentary'. Beyond that, I think it's responsible behavior to give a quick heads up, like Sedit gave me. Again, he did not harp on it and did include some info relevant to my question.

I don't like the 'fuck the idiots' attitude. Sure, they are troublesome (the idiots) but like it or not they have taken an interest in this hobby. I am of the thought that failure alone will redirect these people with time. You really don't need to let or encourage them to kill themselves off, they'll fail a few times and move on. Besides, the more people who get hurt in home labs the sooner it'll be illegal to operate one, regardless of your area of study.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

akcom

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 11:41:13 PM »
If someone decides to take up this hobby up, they should have a proclivity for safety.  If you don't want to take them time to research the hazards involved with each reagent you use, drop the hobby.  No one has a "responsibility" to make sure you don't hurt yourself when you try to make illegal drugs.  In fact, you have a responsibility to the people around you to do as much footwork as possible in determining how to properly handle the chemicals you use.  Don't like the footwork? take up underwater basket weaving.

Shake

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2011, 11:42:28 PM »
Quote
I disagree, we can't assume responsibility for making sure dumbasses don't hurt themselves under any circumstances.
I say, if you put in "lamen" terms and make it available to non chemists without propper training you have a duty to provide a decent amount of detail about the dangers that go with the procedure.

The chromic acid one is a perfect example, the rhodium archive has plenty of write ups on clandestine procedures using it, and a few words here and there about it being dangerous.

I can bet there is a mistake that can be made where by it steams off into the air, and if you breath it your fucked, these real risks arnt made clear and explained. it is just as important as the procedure itself. so many lab explosions, 20% of all busts come from fires or exploding labs. the cooks are not always stupid, just the dangers were not stressed and made clear when they were given the procedure.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 11:44:38 PM by Shake »

lugh

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2011, 12:18:55 AM »
There's already a thread on this web site about lab accidents, where a file was uploaded on lab safety:

http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,401.msg11671.html#msg11671

and there's literally no way to anticipate what mistakes someone not skilled in the art might manage to make  ::) People need to study what's available freely on the internet instead of posting redundant threads on a daily basis  8)
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Balkan Bonehead

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2011, 01:52:58 AM »
Quote
I disagree, we can't assume responsibility for making sure dumbasses don't hurt themselves under any circumstances.

I just wanted to clarify that I meant we can't assume responsibility for every circumstance in which a dumbass may injure himself, not that there are no circumstances under which we should give safety reminders.

reDEEMed

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2011, 02:16:09 AM »
I do believe that in the event you are the dumbass's life insurance beneficiary, you should encourage as many "hey y'all watch this" moments as possible, or my personal favorite, what's that smell.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

Tsathoggua

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2011, 08:36:56 AM »
Idiot's reply 'something like geraniums, quite faint, though, lets take another sniff' *glarrrkkhh gag...puke...shit self...die*

Name that  hazard?
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

Shake

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2011, 03:26:45 PM »
assholeitis

Sedit

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Re: So many write ups on methods, never much safety instructions to go with it..
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2011, 04:22:26 PM »
Idiot's reply 'something like geraniums, quite faint, though, lets take another sniff' *glarrrkkhh gag...puke...shit self...die*

Name that  hazard?

Lewisite?
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!