Pages: 1

Author Topic: What do you guys know about buying diseased mice (for research)?  (Read 69 times)

reDEEMed

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
What do you guys know about buying diseased mice (for research)?
« on: September 24, 2011, 07:06:52 PM »
How does one go about buying mice with a particular diseases for research? I found a place that sells mice with Parkinson's, but there was no price or anything specific. The ol' "if you have to ask you can't afford it" came to mind. I am seriously interested in this, though. Of course money is definitely an object. Is this one of those things that is pretty much out of reach, unless one is receiving funding from deeper pockets than your own? Another thing I thought about it is maybe you would need a research license to even buy one of the little bastards. I'm just assuming here, but I wouldn't be surprised if owning one of these souped up rattle rats required a few hundred pages of paperwork. I imagine it would be pretty bad if your new pet, appropriately named Micheal, got loose and somehow bred, even though I seriously doubt he could get laid with the tick he'd have. Worse yet, what if you intentionally bred them, that would piss some people off. Those people that sell these mice seemed mighty proud that they succeeded in 'making' this animal, I'm sure breeding them intentionally would be criminal in some way shape or form.

Seriously, what do you guys know about this business? Some of you have had exposure to this, I'm sure. I'm really only interested in rats/mice with nerve damage. I imagine the same rules apply regardless of the animal's ailment, though. It doesn't have to be Parkinson's, any nerve damage will do. I guess I could always damage them myself, but I don't have the heart, I can't hurt an animal like that.  Maybe I could make a little tiny mask with my ex-wife's face on it with a little rubber band to hold it on, I could hurt it then, but I might kill it, so that's no good.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

Tsathoggua

  • Autistic sociopath
  • Foundress Queen
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
Re: What do you guys know about buying diseased mice (for research)?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2011, 12:45:18 AM »
Animal research is wrong. Its vile, its cruel. and whilst we have learned a lot from torturing animals, regardless of what we can learn from animal models, it can't continue. In my view subjecting animals to the experiments we, as scientists do, to the barbarism that we have done is even worse than experimenting on people. Read about the japanese WWII human experiments, or the machinations of fuckbags like Mengele, the angel of death, on children, and political prisoners, POWs etc. And then read a few neurobiology research papers. What differs? not very much, only the victims are different species.

Subjecting rats and mice to a slow prolonged, agonising death by GABAa antagonist convulsants to test epilepsy meds and antianxiety meds, implanting electrodes in their heads and delivering nerve agents, the same is done for psychedelics....to assay for activity etc. Ever seen a person with parkinson's disease, or multiple sclerosis, paralysed, tormented, wasting away slowly? they suffer and suffer, and suffer with no relent, no hope of release save for when death finally comes.

My mother has MS, and that is happening to her now. Her mind has gone, her body is slowly rotting, leaving her a hollow, tortured shell. Could you inflict that on a being capable of suffering? could you dissect a rabbit, a cat, a dog, a monkey while they still live? And buying colonies of those mice, or monkeys, or whatever other species is just the same. You might not have poisoned them, drowned them, burnt them with hotplates, flames, acid, put out their eyes yourself, or infected them with whatever cruel transgenic viral vector, leaving them with huntington's, parkinson's, or cancer.

No...you might not do it yourself, but you pay others to do just that, washing your hands of the guilt that you cannot face owning up to were you to have inflicted the damage yourself, so the animal experimenter bears the same share of the same guilt as the one who causes the damage to the animal model. In my book, that is cowardice at its very worst, and right up alongside the abhorrent ranks of wifebeaters, child rapists, traitors, thieves and murderers. There is a special place in hell, for sure that awaits the heartless torturers and slaughterer of innocent, defenseless animals.

Don't become on of them, Redeemed, same goes for anyone here, or anywhere else. Any scientist who is prepared to stoop to such barbarism is undeserving of the name 'scientist', and deserving instead, only of the name 'butcher' when throwing away your honor with the animals one would throw away like so much trash.

Could you do what the muslims do to rape victims and stone a child to death for being raped? no, I doubt it. Could you flay a python alive and leave it to die slowly in agony over several days in a pile of other miserable skinless snakes? Could you 'pith' a frog, by ripping its cerebral cortex out, leaving it both dead and alive at the same time, until it simply starves to death, or cut the organs from a living cat, left to writh and squirm like a maggot on a hook, mewling and whining as its life drains away for the sake of discovery and knowledge?

Such knowledge comes at a price that should not be paid.
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

reDEEMed

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
Re: What do you guys know about buying diseased mice (for research)?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2011, 01:04:26 AM »
No, I didn't intent anything of that sort.

When I was in the hospital I had this inspiration of sorts. It was unique in how overwhelming it was, it was more of a realization. It is probably the reason why I committed 100% to buying the chemistry gear and taking this path. I say probably because I had lots of motivations. If I had a proper dedicated lab area, not my kitchen, I'd be fuckin' with all kinds of shit, I mean all kinds lol. I don't mean to imply that I had this inspirational moment and it's some sort of premonition or any of that happy horse shit. I'm just sayin', that at some point I was struck by how neglected mycology is by the mainstream big money research community, and how the guy at home with an insatiable curiosity is usually the one to uncover secrets as they pertain to fungi. It has been reported that something in lion's mane mushrooms causes damaged nerves to grow back. At the time my left arm was partially paralyzed, that's no doubt where the thought came from. Anyway, I just felt inspired to play with this. I have grown mushrooms before, I can do that. I thought about processing the fruit several different ways and administering several different ways to the mice with nerve damage, just to see if anything happened. Obviously I'm not willing to pay $2600 for a rat that vibrates. I'm just a goober like that.

You got me all wrong. I wasn't going to torture anything.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

Vesp

  • Administrator
  • Foundress Queen
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,130
Re: What do you guys know about buying diseased mice (for research)?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2011, 03:25:26 AM »
The mice will be patented so you won't be able to sell them without violating patent laws.

I doubt it would be illegal to grow or breed them, unless it is in the agreement from when you buy them. They might even go as far as making sterile mice to make it as difficult as possible for you to grow your own.

I doubt they would be that much, send them a message and see how much a few of them cost. I'd bet $10 to $100 dollar range per mouse.

Also I doubt you'd need any paper work at all, they are mice after all!
 

Bitcoin address: 1FVrHdXJBr6Z9uhtiQKy4g7c7yHtGKjyLy

Tsathoggua

  • Autistic sociopath
  • Foundress Queen
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
Re: What do you guys know about buying diseased mice (for research)?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2011, 05:07:52 AM »
To attempt to heal nerve damage. one first has to inflict it in the case of an animal model, therefore those animals are going to suffer immensely. Ye ancient amphibian knows what nerve damage is like, having neuropathy thanks to surgery gone wrong, and being useless besides, in both a knee, and having had a fingertip reattatched after an encounter with the business end of a sodding great pike and the sodding great razor sharp fangs that went with it. Not to mention temporary partial paralysis after a local exposure to willy peter that rendered him for a time without much fine motor control in one arm, only small scale contact with elemental WP was sufficient to do that. Anyone willing to inflict any of those to a mouse, rat, or other animal is undeserving of the name 'scientist' in Toady's book. Animal experimentation on live subjects should be absolutely off limits in his view. As should killing animals to obtain dead subjects. Testing any drugs, other than in a genuine attempt to heal a naturally sick or wounded animal likewise.

They have no voice, regardless of how much they want to cry out. Refraining from being the one to wield the knife or the needle against defenseless animals, aside from the frequent lack of an accurate reflection of practical in vivo effects from animal to human whilst paying others to do so is cowardice, and does not excuse one from responsibility if it is done on one's behalf.

The mode of action of lion's mane (Hericium spp) is an agonist on one of the TRk receptors (TRK-a if I recall), the receptor for NGF (BDNF receptor is related to this, which binds to and activates TRK-bRs), potential side effects of NGF include hypertrophic nerve growth I imagine, and has been known to be involved in itching, as well as bladder irritability, been a while since I read up on TRk receptor pharmacology though. NGF receptor agonists are known to be potentially useful in cognitive function improvement, as is BDNF (although native BDNF peptide AFAIK has a very very short half life, minutes, and the BBB penetrability is, as with many unmodified peptides administered outside the BBB, quite probably dubious, IIRC NGF is peripherally expressed though, and agonists help remyelinate nerves that have been subject to demyelination)

Interesting, and highly complex pharmacology assodiated with the TRK receptors. Differential activity at least for TRKb (BDNFr) activation is the case depending on where and how its released, interacting with nicotinic ACh receptors of the alpha7 type. Hericium contains at least two sets of TRKa receptor agonists, one present more in the mycelium and one more in the fruitbodies. AFAIK extracts are needed to gain the full benefits in humano due to relatively small quantities by weight present in the 'mushroom friuitbodies'.

I never SAID you were going to torture lab animals. I was making the point that de facto an animal line or individual with nerve damage in the lab will have had it inflicted by man, and ergo must have been made to suffer by SOMEBODY'S hand and thus should not be trucked with...its wrong, regardless of what could be learned. No different from what Mengele did in the german death camps. Someone will have done it, and complicity should bee avoided outright. I couldn't live with myself if I knew I had been responsible for that, personally. I've read hundred upon hundreds of different neuropharmacology and cognitive neuroscience journal articles, and I know what they do to the lab animals in the name of obtaining data, the suffering those animals go through is incomprehensible.

BTW...what is a 'goober' ?
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

reDEEMed

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
Re: What do you guys know about buying diseased mice (for research)?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2011, 07:48:35 AM »
Sorry Tsath, if I can find that simply eating a mushroom may make another Back To The Future possible, I have to try.

@ Vesp, it would be so damn awesome if you were right. $10-$100 would be fine with me. I'm not as hopeful as you, but I'm gonna see, email is out.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

reDEEMed

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
Re: What do you guys know about buying diseased mice (for research)?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 06:41:31 AM »
Oh well, I heard back from the Jax research group today. Mice will only be sold to fully accredited research facilities who are registered with Jax. I knew that would be the case. So, I'm going to plan B. I didn't even think about it at first, but I have two vets in the family, both of which are cool. Hell, the last time I ran out of pain meds one sent me percocet overnight. Anyway, one is now going back to school to specialize in laboratory animal medicine. I haven't asked her yet, but I'm 99.999% sure she will get me a sick rat, especially considering it's such a noble cause and there could be free drugs in it for her. The lady at Jax made no mention of price, I'm almost afraid to ask.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

Vesp

  • Administrator
  • Foundress Queen
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,130
Re: What do you guys know about buying diseased mice (for research)?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 07:50:25 AM »
Jax research group huh? Nice of them to be ethical - I wonder what others do? It is worth checking out a few different places.

An option might be to give them Parkinson's disease via a chemical means.
Bitcoin address: 1FVrHdXJBr6Z9uhtiQKy4g7c7yHtGKjyLy

reDEEMed

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
Re: What do you guys know about buying diseased mice (for research)?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 09:23:18 AM »
Jax is the only place I found that sold them, and they tout it like it's a big deal. Admittedly I haven't really really searched hard, but I've done a little googling. Are you saying that it would be possible for someone without a pretty well equipped lab to give a mouse parkinson's via chemical means? Not anything that you could pass on by breeding, but just that one that you treated with whatever? If that's what you're saying, maybe that's what makes theirs 'special', maybe whatever they've done is hereditary. That would be good news, actually. If there is some reasonably accessible way to do one mouse, that would be tits. Really, any nerve damage would suffice. It could even just be a limb that was effected, hell, that may even be preferable. No, it is preferable.

Any chemical ideas for painlessly effecting a single limb?
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

uchiacon

  • Larvae
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: What do you guys know about buying diseased mice (for research)?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2011, 08:01:14 AM »
Quote from: Tsathoggua on September 25, 2011, 12:45:18 AM
Animal research is wrong. Its vile, its cruel. and whilst we have learned a lot from torturing animals, regardless of what we can learn from animal models, it can't continue. In my view subjecting animals to the experiments we, as scientists do, to the barbarism that we have done is even worse than experimenting on people. Read about the japanese WWII human experiments, or the machinations of fuckbags like Mengele, the angel of death, on children, and political prisoners, POWs etc. And then read a few neurobiology research papers. What differs? not very much, only the victims are different species.

Subjecting rats and mice to a slow prolonged, agonising death by GABAa antagonist convulsants to test epilepsy meds and antianxiety meds, implanting electrodes in their heads and delivering nerve agents, the same is done for psychedelics....to assay for activity etc. Ever seen a person with parkinson's disease, or multiple sclerosis, paralysed, tormented, wasting away slowly? they suffer and suffer, and suffer with no relent, no hope of release save for when death finally comes.

My mother has MS, and that is happening to her now. Her mind has gone, her body is slowly rotting, leaving her a hollow, tortured shell. Could you inflict that on a being capable of suffering? could you dissect a rabbit, a cat, a dog, a monkey while they still live? And buying colonies of those mice, or monkeys, or whatever other species is just the same. You might not have poisoned them, drowned them, burnt them with hotplates, flames, acid, put out their eyes yourself, or infected them with whatever cruel transgenic viral vector, leaving them with huntington's, parkinson's, or cancer.

No...you might not do it yourself, but you pay others to do just that, washing your hands of the guilt that you cannot face owning up to were you to have inflicted the damage yourself, so the animal experimenter bears the same share of the same guilt as the one who causes the damage to the animal model. In my book, that is cowardice at its very worst, and right up alongside the abhorrent ranks of wifebeaters, child rapists, traitors, thieves and murderers. There is a special place in hell, for sure that awaits the heartless torturers and slaughterer of innocent, defenseless animals.

Don't become on of them, Redeemed, same goes for anyone here, or anywhere else. Any scientist who is prepared to stoop to such barbarism is undeserving of the name 'scientist', and deserving instead, only of the name 'butcher' when throwing away your honor with the animals one would throw away like so much trash.

Could you do what the muslims do to rape victims and stone a child to death for being raped? no, I doubt it. Could you flay a python alive and leave it to die slowly in agony over several days in a pile of other miserable skinless snakes? Could you 'pith' a frog, by ripping its cerebral cortex out, leaving it both dead and alive at the same time, until it simply starves to death, or cut the organs from a living cat, left to writh and squirm like a maggot on a hook, mewling and whining as its life drains away for the sake of discovery and knowledge?

Such knowledge comes at a price that should not be paid.

I can definitely see where you are coming from here. I personally couldn't justify submitting these animals to a slow and ardous death, but if knowledge gained will save my life, then I cannot really argue with it. It should only be allowed if it is furthering life saving research.

It's just a gut feeling though. If we don't want to be tortured, we should exclude it in all forms from our society. IMHO, things that move should just be left to do their thing. Maybe I just want to hug cats though... hm... much empathy these days.
Pages: 1