I dare you

lol I'd be happy to Vesp, but I must warn you, my replies wont be short, as to be fair for all concerned, there is a lot of ground to cover!

  I also want to thank you for allowing this thread to develop. I believe its in all our interests, both as people, AND as a chemistry forum! Yeah, this may sound strange, but after I have had the opportunity to reply to your (and sedits and franks ) pov's, I think you'll see what I mean.
 

There is no membership, there is no sign up. What I see taking place is a collective call being put out and the whole of the observing internet that agrees with what they are saying take some sort of action

And this is what I like about it/them! The principles of democracy, are based on the consensus of the 'opinions' of the people, who the governments are "supposed to" represent. Unfortunately the likes of Thomas Jefferson & co, seem to have died before MLk and JFK, and as they found out, there ARE many (the 1%=60 million plus!) people who have "vested interests" in maintaining their positions of wealth and influence, and do not want them undermined by some honest, fair politician!!!
   Arms manufacturers, banks and big pharma immediately come to mind, and against them the average person feels powerless. This is where the "collective mind" of the public arena has/is and will have the power to affect the attitudes and opinions of others.
 By sharing ideas and knowledge, we empower each other, with no loss to ourselves, aside from some thought and time.
 I'd like to point something out...........

   1) IF, you have access to potable(drinkable) water...........
   2) IF, you know you can have a 'next' meal when you need to.......
   3) IF, you can read the headlines of your local newspaper.........
   4) IF, you have a bank account (even if there's no money in it!)
      You are in the top 4% of people on the planet!!!
  Be able to read the whole paper, take a shower, and have a few $'s in your bank account. and
     You are in the top 2%!!!
 It doesn't take much more to reach the top 1%, which I am most certainly in, however, I wouldn't be considered to be in the top 20% of the 'wealthiest' people in my country!!!

 I think at this point I will keep my posts as brief and relevant as I can, for this is a very complex and personal topic
  That said, I want to thank everyone who has replied, with what are, imo, well considered and highly relevant comments and pov's.
 I am very impressed that some muppet hasn't jumped in with some inane bullshit, but I suppose that goes to show the 'standard of the members' of this forum
 I honestly didnt expect the (imo) excellent quality of posts, questions and replies which have been posted......to say I'm "pleasanly surprised" is an understatement, and I sense this is just the beginning of a truly enlightening discussion, on this most bewildering and complex issue

 And I promise to answer your questions, Vesp, to the best of my ability, as soon as I am able to watch what the videos you have posted, (which I shall do asap) although I do not wish to engage in a 'debate' as such, for my pov's are changing with everything being said here!!!
  regards f1

 LMFAO!!! oh Vesp, you are a man after my heart!!! 

 IIRC, old albert once said "curiosity is a gift" and I concur!

 I have always had 'problems' being concise, because I can see so many 'sides' to most things...which aint always the easiest way to be, but it seems that the greatest satisfaction for me, comes from being challenged, and learning how to deal/understand the problem/issues at hand.

 An old saying, not directed at you, in any way, but you may find it useful....

  "a fool can ask more questions in a minute,  than a wise man can answer in a lifetime"

  Cheers f1

Fucking computer. I told you I didn't even want one in the goddamn house. See all the problems they've caused?

Youtube views since Oct. 27, 2011: 4,759,349

Now this is an example of REAL justice. The sad thing is that these are the types of people who are attracted to jobs in law enforcement in the first place. They have some sick desire to punish others.

 I know this happens to far too many "kids" myself included, to watch this almost left me speechless, go hard sedit

 yeah, fuckheads like this prick, who "believe their own bullshit" deserve EVERYTHING they have given, and then a bit more....

  does ANYONE have a "problem" with Anonymous publishing his details? I don't. In fact he needs the treatment will smith got in Enemy of the State.....
                                                                       Vox Populi, Vox Anonymous.
                                                                      We are Legion. We are many   
                                                                 We do not forgive. We do not forget.

                                                   

                                                                                         



              f(arkin hell)1

His details are public property anon just makes it easy for people to do what they wish with it.

I think the fellow needs a serious ass whoopin, but does that lower me to his level?

Maybe but hes not a defenseless little girl he's a tyrant that needs to be put down.

He is nothing however, only a meager example to get a point across. Anonymous is the feeling you get when you watch that video. Its that you know that everyone feels that way and no one is doing a damn thing about it. I feel they are about, for once being able to do something about it no matter how trivial or small it may be in comparison and no matter how powerful the person or organization is that committed it.

So what, there "terrorist", they send 100 pizzas, flood his work fax with black faxes taking up all its ink and time, they force him to change phone numbers over and over....

These are the sort of acts being condemned so harshly yet when put into perspective... its nothing compared to the acts he committed  . Sure Anonyous started as as a joke, it was just kid shit in the beginning but as they realized the power they had I can't really complain about how they are using it.

One of the groups known as Milw0rm once stole nuclear data from another country and where offered by a known terrorist a good amount of money for that data. They declined and handed the data over and exposed the security flaw that let them in so it could be fixed. The morality of these cyber "criminals" is not as low as media would have you believe.

By sharing ideas and knowledge, we empower each other, with no loss to ourselves, aside from some thought and time.
 I'd like to point something out...........

   1) IF, you have access to potable(drinkable) water...........
   2) IF, you know you can have a 'next' meal when you need to.......
   3) IF, you can read the headlines of your local newspaper.........
   4) IF, you have a bank account (even if there's no money in it!)
      You are in the top 4% of people on the planet!!!
  Be able to read the whole paper, take a shower, and have a few $'s in your bank account. and
     You are in the top 2%!!!
 It doesn't take much more to reach the top 1%, which I am most certainly in, however, I wouldn't be considered to be in the top 20% of the 'wealthiest' people in my country!!!

The principles of democracy require checks and balances, we've all been online long enough to know absolute arseholes & fuckwits who troll forums with up to several thousand fake accounts, automated voting on polls, etc. Their reason for doing so? The same reason that kept Tammany Hall and Boss Tweed with his catchry, 'Vote early & vote often'. As one can see quite clearly in the first democratic votes in places like Tunisia, where the voters had to be fingerprinted/palm-printed (as there is no voter roll). Presumably (though I doubt it) they were told the UN were going to check the prints against each polling station, whereas the real reason was merely to slow down multi-voters. The reason why secret ballots are good and unregistered voters cannot be? Why democracy works is that it allows the majority to rule the minority (the tyranny of the majority comes from that#), the bulk of the people who bother to vote (which does have a socio-economic bias,* those with no interest generally have little to gain or lose, thus no stake = no interest) determine the result.** Those that fund political campaigns and can exert pressure out of proportion to their voting power, destroy this ideal.***

Anonymous has not demonstrated the capacity, the capability or the willpower to actually change anything yet. To do so would mean that they would announce their presence quite clearly and offer an alternative means of spreading a "collective vision", the instant that is recognised by the aforementioned, highly educated, highly intelligent, manipulative, nameless, faceless groups, you can expect to see it change into that which you are fighting against. Why? Offer nameless lobbyists the opportunity to do so anonymously, but with the "apparent" support of a new, "mass media", without checks and balances to ensure that the collective will is not being coopted? Some of the biggest, best organised and heaviest hitters in the online lobby groups have been served by some of "anonymous" latest exploits... Attacking the Westboro Baptist Church, attacking Syria wo.uld appear to be less idealistic than targeted.

NO, I would suggest that by the time that the collective became organised enough to have a formal position on certain points, that it had already been coopted by organisers, those nameless, faceless, anonymous arbiters of political fates, that are the real problem with our democratic process already. At present, the medium allows those with fringe opinions (note, I'm certainly not suggesting merely "fringe dwellers" here) amongst those nameless faceless grey-man types, to push their viewpoints. If it were me, I'd use several thousand, checkable by anyone with any nous, background accounts (fuck, I've used hundreds on bloody myyearbook/myspace/facebook before, fake accounts, fake names, fake details, populated with automated friends lists, etc), putting out slightly different posts, all of the same/similar flavour, some openly supporting an issue, some semi-lukewarm, but not against it, the fun ones openly harassing the piss out of anyone running the counter argument.

But that of course is the way of the world, it is the fate of the weak to be preyed upon by the strong, the fate of the weak minded to be manipulated by anyone and everyone who can do so, and the fate of anonymous, faceless collective movements, that don't ruthlessly enforce standards, to be driven to the lowest common denominator and then ruled, by proxy, by the very forces they originally set out to oppose. An example of that, would be Max Weber, who despite being a prominent socialist, vehemently opposed the Marxist-inspired German Revolution of 1918-19. His reason for doing so was pragmatic, the revolution would almost certainly fail, and the consequential right-wing counter-swing would be ruinous. Fortunately for Weber, he didn't live to see his predictions come true, the aftermath of the failed revolution was the rise of the right wing "street armies", foremost amongst which was the NSDAP to fight the reds. Good idea, but flawed insofar as they relied upon the army to support them. The German Army of that time was, firstly, only too happy to win a war, secondly, always going to take the easiest quickest route to stop the fighting (which had already gone on too long) and thirdly had just been defeated by the allies. The allied armies were already fighting the reds in Russia (alongside the whites - this counter revolution was run by the British by no less a figure than Winston Churchill), if the revolution had succeeded in Germany, they would have invaded - the vast bulk of the allied armies were not merely still in existence, they were still increasing in 1918-19 (which is why Germany sought terms at Versailles). Max Weber stated all of this, it was blindingly obvious to anyone with the capacity to reason, yet the extremists won, at the eventual cost of tens/hundreds of millions of lives.

# The longer the term our representatives are elected for, the more non-core material they are elected to decide on our behalf. That is why the Chartists demanded (the only demand not yet met) no more than 1 year terms.

* I too am in the top 4% of the planet and as a homeowner, probably in the upper half of that. Intelligence wise I'm already in the top 1% (which is skewed on ethnic, socio-economic and other grounds, including particularly bias toward the literate & numerate).

** Party Politics and the rigidity of the same, coupled with the crap about core and non-core promises are making a mockery of the democratic process. Many issues that are politically sensitive, are not put to the public as such, they are decided in backroom deals or in closed meetings amongst delegates. This effect is made worse when the cost of "political advertising" is factored in, just how and why has it risen so much?, which means that the parties have to effectively prostitute their views to those corporate heavyweights that can afford to fund their advertising budget. The manipulation of the democratic process by highly motivated, secret-agenda driven, highly intelligent, extremely adept, manipulative, nameless, faceless groups is THE PROBLEM.

*** Why are we 'helping' Pakistan? Ever heard of Reko Diq, the Balochi Separatist movement and Barrick Gold? Reko Diq is one of the richest gold/copper deposits on the Planet, it is in Balochistan which wants to secede from Pakistan (but is being violently put down - the ex-President, Pervez Mussharraf, and the ex-Prime Minister of Pakistan are up on murder indictments for killing such separatist leaders). If it were to secede from Pakistan, Barrick Gold Corporation (Voted the tenth most corrupt Corporation on earth) would lose its hold, bought through funding the campaigns of both sides of American Politics and the Pakistani Military), badda bing badda boom, we're investing in Pakistan, we are helping Pakistan to build more and more nuclear weapons, because they fear the quite righteous wrath of their much larger neighbour. We are going to have to pull Pakistan on in the very near future and American and Australian lives will be lost, many, many lives.

What about Irian Jaya/West Papua? Another area where the Indonesian Army invaded immediately after independence was announced, another area where the local population (ethnic Micronesians like all Papuans) is being subjected to a slow (and sometimes not so slow) genocide. There was a farce of an independence vote, which the US Supported, which saw >1% turnout, all carefully selected by the Indonesian military which strongly supported continuing to be a part of Indonesia. The reason this keeps going on? Our friends, Barrick Gold Corporation and their partners (Iriana Resources), own the mining rights to the OK Tedi, Battle Mountain Mine and the locals get fuck all and shot if they make a noise.

The principles of democracy require checks and balances, we've all been online long enough to know absolute arseholes & fuckwits who troll forums with up to several thousand fake accounts, automated voting on polls, etc

        Yes, although many "democracies" have been/are manipulated in ways that defy rational inspection...I mean, wtf happened in the   US elections when a "flawed?" polling method using a "punch card" system to record votes.....and then the fuckin things were not clear?

   That a country capable of such wonderful scientific developments would use such an anachronistic "tool" to "register and count" the votes of Presidential election defies belief   I cant recall 'how many' votes were considered "invalid" but it wasnt a lot!!! And to effectively discount the people who voted.....how can ANYONE have "faith" in such chicanery and skullduggery?

Anonymous has not demonstrated the capacity, the capability or the willpower to actually change anything yet.

   I beg to differ, after all, just having people respond, as i have done, you have done, is proof of their "effect".....whether of not this "effect" is beneficial, only time will tell.

# The longer the term our representatives are elected for, the more non-core material they are elected to decide on our behalf. That is why the Chartists demanded (the only demand not yet met) no more than 1 year terms.

Again I beg to differ,, IMO "chopping and changing" governments is a prime factor in their 'inability' to establish and maintain consistent and progressive processes, i.e. infrastructures, to name but one thing we "rely" upon the govts to DO.....however, as you say,
[quote
** Party Politics and the rigidity of the same, coupled with the crap about core and non-core promises are making a mockery of the democratic process. Many issues that are politically sensitive, are not put to the public as such, they are decided in backroom deals or in closed meetings amongst delegates.][/quote]
    and herein lies "the rub".....Liblabs or Lablibs, imo they're much of a muchness...it seems to be the "individuals" in politics who try to represent the best interests of the people, alas they are most often "an army of one!"

There was a farce of an independence vote, which the US Supported, which saw >1% turnout

a typo I guess? i think you may mean "<1%" ,,  please correct me if I'm wrong

Our friends, Barrick Gold Corporation and their partners (Iriana Resources), own the mining rights to the OK Tedi, Battle Mountain Mine and the locals get fuck all and shot if they make a noise.

   Sad, but true, yet this is Not the case everywhere,, even though it may be rampant, do you remember the Franklin Dam, and "Timbarra" and the cyanide leach method they used to extract the gold?  It WAS a fairly small group of vociferous folks, who DID 'effect change", in fact so much so, the dam was never built.
   In fact NOW the area is on the "World Heritage" shortlist,, IIRC,, the mine is closed, and is unlikely to open again, at least in the "foreseeable" future...but, as with many things beyond my personal control, I could be quite mistaken.....c'est la vie!!!

If it were me, I'd use several thousand, checkable by anyone with any nous, background accounts (fuck, I've used hundreds on bloody myyearbook/myspace/facebook before, fake accounts, fake names, fake details, populated with automated friends lists, etc), putting out slightly different posts, all of the same/similar flavour, some openly supporting an issue, some semi-lukewarm, but not against it, the fun ones openly harassing the piss out of anyone running the counter argument.

  Lol,  why am I not surprised you make a good example of "personal response ability"...its up to each person to decide what is "appropriate in any given situation,, 
 e.g. I am not a violent person, however, there ARE a few "situations" where skills I developed long ago (a decade of martial arts) which I have used (twice) and WOULD use again, if placed in a similar situation,,that said though, imo No one "wins" a fistfight!

  One last thing.....the link to the video I posted IS well worth a look,, its clear you are an eloquent bloke frank, and imo these guys are extraordinary wordsmiths discussing the "tough stuff" poetically,, and I DONT say this lightly....I would Not have posted it, if I did not "think" it IS highly pertinent to the general discussion here.....plus imo its great music and they're Aussie!
 

     Again, thanx for the input, I really do appreciate the pov's/feedback and information you have been sharing

            cheers f1

I must clear something up for all of you, the 1% is not a global figure, it does not factor in poor countries.

For example, if you live in the USA the 1% consist of roughly 400 people. Check to see how many of you fall within the 1% net worth in your own country.

---

I look around at all these protest and its obvious something is wrong. These people are protesting with no demands. How shitty does the situation in your country have to become before people rise up without reason. The only point they have made so far is we are poorer then you This confuses me to some extent and at the same time shows me that people are honestly fed up with the system.

matey I'm a HUGE Hoods fan,going back to A matter of time .....they've got SO many good songs,
   ''What a great night' and 'whatcha got' are some of mine

   I posted those words to try and give some 'perspective' on why so many folks are pissed off

  @sedit,

I must clear something up for all of you, the 1% is not a global figure, it does not factor in poor countries.

                                                 good point, although I think it may be a bit higher than 400.
  The group called "G 400" is  worldwide and the people in it are primarily the 'representatives' of 'the people behind the scenes'

  Hey vesp, do you still want me to 'debate' those points I have 'problems' with?  Its not simply put, for its a complex issue,
                re:  I think are the flaws in Galt's 'argument'

                  aaah shit, here it is anyway.....

    He starts out talking about all the clever, aesthetic and artistic qualities, of the human race, no problema, but then he twists his argument with some of the oldest tricks in the book, which often tend to work, IF one is ‘unaware’ of these ‘methods’ of debate.

    In Galt’s “clever argument” aka’ rhetoric’, he has turned the listeners position into a negative one, by asking them “now What IF, we took away ALL “these”  wonderful  people?…., we wouldn’t have ‘all these wonderful things that came with them". This type of argument is know as “argumentum ad populum” or, “appealing to the people”

    This type of argument uses ‘popular beliefs’ to rationalise a POV….e.g  “everyone knows…….” ,,  “its common knowledge……” etc. Advertisers and marketing peeps use this approach all the time, “ but really, just becoz a belief is ‘common’ or widely held, does not make it true.
   
      This type of argument was developed in the forums and quorums of ancient Rome, back in the days of the games, with the gladiators!
   
        By appealing to the general consensus, the proponent attempts to sway the people who don’t agree, by ‘suggesting’ (not ‘saying’)  they are ‘wrong’ BECAUSE, so many people DO agree!!! But they may ALL be ‘mistaken’
               …..a humorous version of this is..“Eat shit, 10 billion flies cant be wrong”
 
         Or,, “9 out of 10 people use email, so email is the better than snail mail”, hmmm not if you want to send a physical note/object etc. Another common fallacy, for some time was “the earth is flat!”…..AND ‘most people’ believed this!
     
          And when you add some other variations on this theme, you can get comments like “most Bikers ride Harley Davidsons, so IF you ride an H-D, you are probably a biker”….this is known as “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” or “after this, therefor because of this”….e.g… ‘a’ happened, then ‘b’ happened, therefore ‘a’ caused ‘b’….  this does not always apply, and is known as a “logical fallacy”
   
       Galt tries to do this by first getting the listener to agree, and then with a type of mental trick, where the listener doesn’t really notice whats happened, ‘becoz’ they had agreed with him at the start.

         At this point, he is using an argumentative “trick”, by turning what started as a positive pov, into the reverse, by asking “what if”

                                   Well, what if?  I guess “IF my mother had balls, she’d be my uncle”

       It’s a bit like when a politician kisses a baby, or something MOST people would consider ok. Nobody is going to ‘disagree’ with his behaviour (well, not often, it has happened though!) in fact, this is still a ‘sop’ (standard operating procedure) becoz it works!!!   
 
       And IF they do like the behaviour,  then they have subconsciously influenced their own behaviour, with this subconscious ‘decision’ to agree with said ‘opinion/s’, and most likely will continue to ‘feel/think’ this way, until something or someone comes along with a ‘better’ pov…
     
         Social scientist call this type of behaviour “herding”, e.g “if it worked before, it will (should) work again”,, and is a type of ‘default’ setting in our brains. We process a lot of stuff without really thinking about it, like walking, driving, daydreaming etc, only ‘paying attention’ if the subroutines are ‘tripped up’ e.g when you stumble while walking, immediately you consciously focus on regaining your balance, or you’ll fall over!

         Humans are generally  capable of empathy, which was taught to us from the get go…’she hurt my feelings’-‘share your toys with the other kids’-‘I love you mummy’ and so on….think about it, and it becomes clear we ‘need’ this skill, to understand other people…..after all ”no man is an island”
     
          This is the ‘essence’ of my problem with what he is saying, imo he is mixing apples with oranges, and as soon as he has, any further ‘arguments’ he makes, are, imo, flawed, due to this. Because he develops a false premise from the start, everything which follows it, is skewed.
 
        That’s just how I see it, so its hard for me to take him seriously any further than that. But that’s only the first of several people you asked me to check out,
       
                   I’m still looking…I have yet to watch them all

         Btw, I hope you don’t think I was trashing your ‘classic liberal’ position, I just think the tag is SO broad, it  seems, at times, to include opinions which are polar opposites, but hey, its been around for a long time, and I honestly cant see how  in todays world, with so many tags, one would classify themselves so ’loosely’ I mean, even calling oneself a doctor or scientist is generalizing, for as you know, these are hugely variable in application, a ‘scientist’ covers a LOT of ground, no? Physics, chemistry, maths, IT, biology etc etc.

   Jeremy Bentham, the father of "utilitarianism", was a ‘classic liberal’, and his position was decidedly “altruistic”
 
         And altruism DOES exist in animals, as most ‘pack animals’ like lions, wolves, dolphins, gorillas chimps, etc, work together to achieved the ‘greatest good for all concerned’ Sure the ‘leader’ gets the ‘lions share’ but leaders change, and the rest of the pack know this.

         I Hope this makes sense to you. Feel  free to question anything, I will ‘try’ to reply.

                           Btw, this IS a simple version of a complex issue…

   Cheers f1

I do have to point it out, if your mother had balls that would make your dad gay and you a turd of a kid, but is that merely a pun, or argumentum ad hominem?

LMAO yep, I guess 'maybe' but my dad might care to differ!!!

you allude to it, suggest it is wrong, then utilize it by dismissing it as an ancient rhetorical device, associated somehow with gladiators?

actually I only put in that bit about the gladiators, as a reference to which period of the past, I'm alluding to, rather than say "in the few hundred years BC" which imo, is not "provable" , Its not truly "clear" exactly when, (if at all) that JC lived!!!

 Blasphemous eh?

frankly, a whole lot of people illustrate my grandmother's saying "no brains & happy without 'em"

yep! sad but true!!!

  In fact I agree with everything you say here, and thats quite a bit

   Tis why I've said things like "its your life, you live it', and "nothing is right or wrong, only thinking makes it so",, as well as being open to having my "mistakes" exposed...it actually helps, more than it hurts!

   However, I'm an eternal optimist, as i believe that if "you argue for your limitatations, they shall surely be yours"

  Here's a little fable about keeping an open mind.......

   Once, in a small rural village in asia, there lived a guy named Chufei. He owned a horse, which put him in the top 5% of his village. consequently he didnt have to harness up the missus, to pull his plow.
    One day his horse jumps the fence and disappears.
All his neighbors rock around saying stuff like "oh Chui you poor bastard, oh missus Chui, you poor bitch, what bad luck has befallen you"
to which his reply was "maybe"
   A couple of weeks later, his horse, a stallion, returns, bringing with him a mare which is now in foal.
The same neighbors rock around again, but this time they're saying "whoa Chui, your a lucky bugger, gee, from no horse to 2 and a bit, and growing! You are truly a lucky dude!!!" to which he replies, "maybe"
  Not long after, his son is out trying to get a bridle on the 'new' horse, when it kicks him and breaks his leg.
Once again, the locals drop by to share their condolences, saying "what a bummer Chui mate, looks like the gods have frowned upon your good fortune, and sent you a "devil horse", to which he replies ",  "maybe"
  Not long after this, the town down the road, gets into a blue with their neighbors, and there's a standing agreement between Chui's village, and this town down the road, to assist each other, in such times, However, Chufei's son aint goin nowhere with his broken leg!
  Once again, the same idiots rock over saying "you lucky bastard, etc etc" and as always, Chui replies, "maybe"

  IMO, this approach to life is very useful, for it allows for ALL possibilities...and as "expectations are the basis for disappointment" I think to have NONE, serves us well....in my opinion, for what its worth

   As "the point of power, is in the present" it really serves us, no purpose to worry about, the future, or regret the past
 By all means "wonder" about the future, and "consider, and try to learn, from past mistakes, and successes" BUT dont attempt to DO anything outside the 'present'......this I suppose is 'basic buddhism' and it "works" for me.....

  The only "reasons" I have for writing the last part, of my last post, is a) Vesp asked, and b) coz MAYBE someone will learn something

   I see nothing wrong with this, maybe I'm 'mistaken' BUT, I dont 'think' so

  I very much appreciate your input frank, and I look forward to 'more' from you, sedit, and and anyone who 'believes' they have something worthwhile to say, after all dont "sticks and stones, break my bones, BUT names will never hurt me!"

  Cheers amicos f1