pic (the 50mg per 10ml 4-ho-dmt, apportioned off into individual 2ml (10mg) samples in 5 seperate vials....shown is one of the 2ml (10mg) vials of frozen 4-ho-dmt after addition of smidgen of baking soda (to neutralize dilute acid) to make it palatable, then crushed vitamin C tablet added 1 minute later to aid preservation. taste is bitter/salty/slightly ascorbic acidic taste.

TIHKAL on 4-ho-dmt:
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal18.shtml

Ahhh, thank you very much vesp! i'll do the color test soon and also possibly experiment with the salting out, based on your excellent observations, much apperciated, gonna study what you wrote in detail.

Thanks Vesp!

I took a vial of converted 10mg (that had been frozen a couple weeks) 4-ho-dmt liquid last night and it was exceptional, it is no different than LSD as far as the psychedelic mind space, just a shorter trip (4 - 5 hours) instead of the 8-10 hours of LSD, also it is easier to fall asleep afterwards (just as with normal mushroom trip), whereas with LSD it takes a while before you can sleep. I enjoyed listening to music for hours on end, this coming home from a super long day at work with several days off.  I need to wait awhile (a couple weeks) before I sample it again, as 5-HT2A receptors down regulate a bit if not given enough time between trips.

I'll probably just always keep it in the liquid frozen form, it keeps just fine this way and as Shulgin states psilocin crystals are not all that stable in air as compared to psilocybin. No desire to mess with the salting out, as I'm perfectly content with the frozen liquid, I just run it under hot tap water for a minute, then swallow the liquid as I say a prayer and enter the Spirit World.

psilocin:-------------compared with---------LSD

4.00 = max affinity, 0.00 = no affinity:

5-HT1A--2.88................................5-HT1A--3.73
5-HT1B--2.19................................5-HT1B--4.00
5-HT1D--3.40................................5-HT1D--3.70
5-HT1E--3.03................................5-HT1E--2.62
------------ ------------
5-HT2A--2.14................................5-HT2A--3.54
5-HT2B--4.00................................5-HT2B--3.11
5-HT2C--2.52................................5-HT2C--3.11
5-HT5A--2.83................................5-HT5A--3.64
------------ ------------
5-HT6--2.82.................................5-HT6---3.75
5-HT7--2.82.................................5-HT7---3.77
D1-----3.37..................................D1------2.34
D3-----2.52..................................D3------3.11
adrenal 2A--1.36........................adrenal 2A---2.93
adrenal 2B--1.57........................adrenal 2B---0.00
adrenal 2c--1.03.........................adrenal 2c---0.00

I'll report on the color change tomorrow here.

These natural psychedelics (including the semi-synthetic LSD) are precise molecular keys that fit the brain receptors with precision, one small change or tweak (as all RC's are) can cause the key not to fit properly, causing the experience to be not as psychedelic and mind-manifesting as intended, that's why the natural psychedelics work so well, they hit all the 5-HT and Dopamine/adrenal receptors just right, created by the "Other" or divine creator just for that reason. 4-aco-dmt does not occur in Nature, and for good reason, it is not the proper key as Nature intended, 4-ho-dmt on the other hand is divine and has thousands of years of Shamanic use, proven safe and effective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Summary: Acid catalyzed hydrolysis...the acetyl group is attacked by the water, catalyzed by the dilute acid...which hydrolyzes the substance to the hydroxy...it involves in theory a drop or two of muriatic (ph=1 to 2), 10ml of water, 50mg of substance, 20 to 30 minutes of gentle 140 F degree heat and stirring....then afterwords cooling down and a pinch of baking soda, and a minute later, crushed vitamin c...then freeze, in link above substitute http for the hxxp. Light should be kept to a minimum or turned off during, as up to 7% degredation can occur in 1 hour with strong light.)

so do you think you possibly only converted 30-40% of your samples?...it would be interesting to hear what a longer conversion produces

You seemed pretty happy with what you got, however.... dont be shy with further reports tregar...your not hogging anything, this IS your topic after all! 

yes you're right about not being able to guess what actually converts and I suppose I should have made myself clearer

 as tregar had said he felt a significant and noticeable difference with the acetylated version  but if his recent data IS correct he couldn't have converted much. . . so I was just pulling an appreciable figure out of a hat-- btw RR I'm the first to accept its often beyond many/most members to accurately assay most of the compounds they have...I was hoping tregar might pill some unknown gem out of his hat      

 I wonder if when he does heat it for longer if there will be an even more noticeable change?

maybe he has stumbled upon the perfect combination of the two? it is a pretty glowing bioassy

 hmmm which as I think about it...how could one assess this compound? any ideas, if you've got the glass to pull out into a neat  cappilary tube m.p. tests aren't hard to do are easy to read when done in glass and dont use much of the compound at all

any other ideas

yes you're right about not being able to guess what actually converts and I suppose I should have made myself clearer

 as tregar had said he felt a significant and noticeable difference with the acetylated version  but if his recent data IS correct he couldn't have converted much. . . so I was just pulling an appreciable figure out of a hat-- btw RR I'm the first to accept its often beyond many/most members to accurately assay most of the compounds they have...I was hoping tregar might pill some unknown gem out of his hat      

 I wonder if when he does heat it for longer if there will be an even more noticeable change?

maybe he has stumbled upon the perfect combination of the two? it is a pretty glowing bioassy

 hmmm which as I think about it...how could one assess this compound? any ideas, if you've got the glass to pull out into a neat  cappilary tube m.p. tests aren't hard to do are easy to read when done in glass and dont use much of the compound at all

any other ideas

Considering bioassays, I personally think it’s pretty hard to determine what you have when you don’t know at all what it is. I can easily spot and compare the differences between MDxx and 2c-X when I’m 100% sure of what it is if ( for example If I personally the chemist. ). However, maybe I just suck at this, but if you gives me a random pill (which I rarely take), I’m having a hard time determining what the fuck it is (I’m even sometimes struggling to discern MDxx from 2C-X (and maybe benzylpiperazines combos, but pretty sure I never had the bad luck to get that). Again maybe I just suck at determining the nature of a chemical when under the influence, and adulterants probably makes this ever harder.
It would be interesting if bioassays would be done with tryptamines connaisseurs giving them either the hydrolysed 4-AcO-DMT or the non-hydrolysed one without telling them what they’re actually taking.

As for the relation between heating and hydrolysis, a more accessible way to monitor the reaction without lab access would be TLC. Supposing the initial sample is actually 4-AcO-DMT and pretty pure , that would give a pretty good idea of what really happens during the hydrolysis. And it could easily be determined if the reaction is going to completion or not. Much much better than NMR actually. Actually, I might be able to test this in the near future, hopefully…I have access to both TLC and 4-AcO-DMT in a breeze, but performing the hydrolysis is incovenient in the moment…

more ideas:

hxxp://www.kii.ntf.uni-lj.si/analchemvoc/SPEKTRA/kinetics2.htm

According to the aspirin paper above, plain water at ambient room temperature will hydrolyze 90% of the aspirin in 36 hours. it's quite possible that 4-aco-dmt left in some water at room temp will convert totally into 4-ho-dmt after 36 hours.

..notice that in the aspirin paper above, that 90% of aspirin will also hydrolyze into it's parent compound after 1 hour at 140 degree F in a dilute acid solution. I've been using 20 minutes.

I'll do an experiment soon going for 60 minutes instead of the normal 20 minutes, it's quite possible that it will be even stronger....i'll let you know how it goes, and get a 2nd person involved in the experience. A third person I know is gonna give it a go as well, and will report back eventually.

I’ve noticed something that might support your theory . I’ve prepared an aqueous solution about 2 weeks ago since I didn’t have an adequate scale available. I stored it in a amber bottle in the fridge. When I checked it today, the color of the solution had turned from colorless to brownish, not unlike your ''stage-3'' pic in your original post, beside being more brown than green. I’ve simply dumped it out considering I can’t determine what it is in the moment anyway and I’m not going to risk anything with a degraded research chemical, especially considering the price and availability. Pretty sure it was indeed 4-AcO-DMT considering 2 things: I hydrolysed it like you originally did (NaOH hydrolysis), and it turned blue after 10-15 minutes in tap-hot water. Low-dose test bioassay pointed out to tryptamine effects. The raw powder is brownish and surprisingly not-soluble in water considering it’s supposed to be a hydrochloride salt. I needed to add a shitload of water to lower the concentration to under 1mg/ml and even there, there was still some undissolved material but I didn’t bother. I’ll also add that I’ve used tap water (Stupid, I know) instead of distilled water since it wasn’t readily available in the immediate moment. Anyway, it’s more a curiosity than anything, it prompted me to order a scale.


Anyway, TLC would really shed some light on this if you have access to it Again, I really like your work and gonna try the hydrolysis as soon as I can. Haven't really tested the esterified version yet though. I initially bought it because I read the nice detailed report you posted, but the ''allergic'' reaction you then got is having me a bit worried even if it seems an isolated incident from what I've read on Erowid/Bluelight. Still, I don't put too much faith into trip reports from people outside of this forum...
 

a whole new (and sticky, to keep it obvious) "drug isolation" thread/topic wouldnt go astray

I'm not too informed on the subject, but are there any species containing only psilocibin and psilocin

The concentration of active psilocybin mushroom compounds varies not only from species to species, but also from mushroom to mushroom inside a given species, subspecies or variety. The same holds true even for different parts of the same mushroom.

apparently only one or two have them in isolation, out of the hundreds of species which have psilocin/cybin in them

Removing the Phosphate moeity looks to be an idea, but what I'd really like to know is whether it makes any difference

Another thing is Sasha took the acetyl and hydroxyl versions and considered them 'interchangeable'...I have read of other folks besides tregar having issues with the acetly version too but Saxha doesnt even mention it

EXTENSIONS AND COMMENTARY : There are two generalizations implicit here, one of which I am quite at peace with, but the other is both complex and disturbing. The OK item is the casual equation between the hydroxy compound psilocin, the acetate ester, and the phosphate ester, psilocybin. As I had discussed in the CZ-74 to CEY-19 entries in 4-HO-DET, there is no proof that the ester goes to the indolol metabolically, but it is a good guess, and there have been no demonstrated differences in their pharmacology. Ditto here, with psilocin and psilocybin. I have explored both of them as pure chemicals, and I find them completely interchangeable as to their pharmacological properties.

The second generalization is more difficult and leads into some uncomfortable areas. This is the effort to equate the chemicals, psilocin and psilocybin, with their natural sources, the mushrooms. Part of the uncertainties I feel are related to the unknowns that are intrinsic to the plant sources. There are many species that have been offered and accepted as magic mushrooms. Identification in the field is one thing, but what can be said of dried, ground up plant material of unknown sources? What are they? How have they been preserved? What is their composition? The older samples may be reasonably free of the rather unstable psilocin, but psilocybin is much more stable and may persist. But so might its congeners such as baeocystin and norbaeocystin which are scattered in widely different proportions in many species, and which are quite unexplored pharmacologically. There are so many uncontrollable variables in the mushroom area that here I cast my vote for exploration with the chemicals themselves. They can, at least in principle, be analyzed, and weighed. But this is a luxury not available to many, as the syntheses of these alkaloids is difficult, and woefully illegal.

More research is needed  

Personally as the little blue buggers are coming into season, I would like to find some good extraction methods

Ragemon, Tregar...ideas?

Personally as the little blue buggers are coming into season, I would like to find some good extraction methods

Ragemon, Tregar...ideas?

Have searched a bit in the litterature and there is no extensive procedure being used. Doesn't even seems to need using acid/base chemistry. A simple methanol extraction seems standard with centrifugation. Since most of us don't have a centrifuge lying around, repeated methanol extractions would surely get the job done, even if it's not optimal. Anyway, I suppose yield isn't the main issue in your case considering you would simply eat the mushrooms if it was the case  .


This paper can probably gives you some ideas 

Determination of Psilocybin and Psilocin in Hallucinogenic Mushrooms by HPLC with Diode Array and MS Detection
Orden, Raymond C Van; Kieber, David J; Lawler, Patrick ;Stipanovic, Arthur J; Raynal, Dudley J
State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry, 2008. 

thats a very cool paper ragemon

  long columns are yet to come to my place, maybe you would have some ideas here as to what could be used to successfully pack one?

The more I think about it, its not hard to get the stuff (alks) out, its just hard to isolate the tryptamines aside from using chromatography