Author Topic: Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride  (Read 93 times)

AnyNameWillDo

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Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride
« on: April 16, 2012, 05:59:34 PM »
I've been browsing around the site for a while now, using it as a supplement to my other readings and research into a few specific reactions which I've recently become very interested in.  I'm in the process of gaining a deep understanding of the processes that would be required for these reactions to occur successfully.  So far the site's been very helpful, and hopefully you guys are willing to help me with this question.  May be some basic shit, but bare with me if you don't mind...

The reaction I'm referring to is MDA from MDP2P using sodium cyanoborohydride and ammonium acetate.  That process itself is straightforward, however, the step that I do not understand or have an answer for, is recovering the NaBH3CN and ammonium acetate from the solution at the end.  Can you give me some information on how and when the best way to recover these is?  The price I'm seeing for them is reasonable but this is really only a feasible process if there is a fairly simple way to recover these catalysts at the end.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 06:02:19 PM by AnyNameWillDo »

embezzler

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Re: Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 06:42:45 PM »
I assume you are attempting to recover the Sodium CyanoBorohydride on account of it being a tad expensive. This is surely a reactant not a catalyst.

Digging out ammonium acetate would be a waste of time IMHO.
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AnyNameWillDo

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Re: Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 07:16:05 PM »
Damn, I thought that may be the case though I wasn't entirely sure.  Ammonium acetate, that's no big deal at all but the sodium cyanoborohydride, that's disappointing.  That really seemed like the best way to go from my perspective, now I'm not so sure.  Although, considering the write-up is for 200g MDP2P, the investment required surely makes up for itself in the end.

Bummer, but good to know.  Still may end up being the best bet for my circumstances...

lugh

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Re: Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 09:32:31 PM »
Quote
That process itself is straightforward, however, the step that I do not understand or have an answer for, is recovering the NaBH3CN and ammonium acetate from the solution at the end.

The fact that you posted the above indicates that you have little understanding of the reaction mechanism   ;)  Attempting organic chemistry without understanding the mechanisms is like fighting with one's hands tied behind one's back  ::)  Please study the attached articles and syllabuses and then other chemistry books and web pages that can be found online   :P  The end results from the effort applied  8)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 02:35:10 AM by lugh »
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AnyNameWillDo

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Re: Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 09:54:14 PM »
I won't deny that at all man.  My chemistry knowledge is basically limited to high school Honors Chemistry, which was some years ago at this point...  I'm taking numerous Chem labs at a nearby university over the next two years and I wouldn't seriously consider any of this until I had completed those.

Anyway, all I am really doing right now is constant reading on various routes from A to B, and taking note of which ones seem like they would be the best when that time comes.  That route seems like an excellent choice.  Since the source from which I learned of it states "the catalyst needed is sodium cyanoborohydride" I made the apparently foolish assumption that it acted as a catalyst and thus could be recovered.  It was also a bit of wishful thinking too, as it is expensive shit by comparison to everything else I'd be in the market for for that reaction.

embezzler

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Re: Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2012, 09:58:53 PM »
Quote
Since the source from which I learned of it states "the catalyst needed is sodium cyanoborohydride" 

Question all sources ;) Some are infinitely more reliable than others.

This chemical is dangerous to handle and its incompatibilities need to be understood.
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lugh

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Re: Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 10:44:23 PM »
You should study the route that involves reducing the oxime of MDP2P with al-hg instead of sodium cyanoborohydride and ammonium acetate: 

http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,2690.msg27199.html#msg27199

there are many other threads on this route here and elsewhere 8)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 10:46:33 PM by lugh »
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AnyNameWillDo

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Re: Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 12:26:47 AM »
Thanks for the info.  I have looked at that Al-Hg route somewhat when I first started researching this.  Initially it rubbed me the wrong way.  I guess it just seemed messy, dealing with mercury did not give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside, and getting nitromethane sounded like it would be a pain in the ass, as well as giving me the impression that it would raise the kaboom risk quite a lot.  From what I was just glancing through somewhere, it sounds like this route without the nitromethane will yield MDA, which I did not realize previously.  That's pretty awesome if so, need to read that.

MDMA would be my ideal end product, but the routes I was looking at appeared to be a bit less complicated to get to MDA, for the first go round that is.  Thanks for the links and files, I'm looking over all of the stuff you posted right now.  Does seem that Al-Hg is the way most people do it and I'm sure there's a reason for that.  The NaBH3CN reaction tickled my fancy due to its utter simplicity and the fact that I feel, even now, I'd be able to pull it off.  But of course, by the time this is legal for me to actually perform, I'll have the skills and confidence to proceed with either one.   ;)

Wizard X

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Re: Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 12:51:09 AM »
Quote
That process itself is straightforward, however, the step that I do not understand or have an answer for, is recovering the NaBH3CN and ammonium acetate from the solution at the end.

The fact that you posted the above indicates that you have little understanding of the reaction mechanism   ;)  Attempting organic chemistry without understanding the mechanisms is like fighting with one's hands tied behind one's back  ::)  Please study the attached articles and syllabuses and then other chemistry books and web pages that can be found online   :P  The end results from the effort applied  8)

NO, IT'S CALLED BUCKET CHEMISTRY!!
Albert Einstein - "Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds."

lugh

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Re: Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 02:44:40 AM »
The attached article is a study of how well organic chemistry students actually understand the mechanisms that are involved   ;)  The conclusions that were reached should not surprise any long time member of the swarm   :P  Most of the students didn't attempt to understand organic chemistry mechanisms just like most newbees  ::)  Whether one calls it bucket chemistry or cooking in a bucket, there's little doubt that law enforcement agencies can make life much more difficult for those that lack basic understanding of organic chemistry  8)
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond

embezzler

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Re: Recovery of Sodium Cyanoborohydride
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 06:44:20 AM »

I guess it just seemed messy, dealing with mercury did not give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside, and getting nitromethane sounded like it would be a pain in the ass, as well as giving me the impression that it would raise the kaboom risk quite a lot. 

The NaBH3CN reaction tickled my fancy due to its utter simplicity and the fact that I feel, even now, I'd be able to pull it off. 

The potential for cyanide liberation should not be underestimated.

With chemistry there is always an explosion risk which increases around solvents.
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