Author Topic: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude  (Read 217 times)

faust.motion

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computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« on: July 26, 2012, 02:08:25 PM »
Hello hello, fellow underground chemists, amateurs and illegal professionals, hobbyists, curious individuals and other shades of shady.

I've done my fair share of plant extractions with great success, going to various lengths to secure my own personal (and generous, hey, I live to give) stash of mind-benders and the like, I find myself wanting to up my chemistry game and return-on-investment. While I do enjoy the crystalline fruits of my plant-extracting labour, there are bigger challenges and greater fruits to be had and this forum is where I intend on arming myself with the practical knowledge that will allow me to create said fruits.

Two main factors drive my synthesis explorations:
a) it musn't raise ANY alarm bells whatsoever. Fly under the radar as low as possible. Synthesize precursors to precursors. Grow precursor-containing plants if need be.
b) it must be as safe as possible. Settle for a safer reaction, a less volatile or dangerous solvent/reagent, that sort of thing.

My aim is to strike a balance somewhere between the two.
I try to take every precaution possible but realize that mistakes can creep in, this is usually due to ignorance. Hanging out here and running thorough hypotheses by experienced minds is usually a good place to start, it helps having more eyes to criticize.

I understand that synthesis is a much bigger ballgame than standard plant extractions. There's so much more theory to absorb, more precautions to take, more glassware to obtain, hotter heat from the government, bigger considerations to take in. Law enforcement suck when it comes to our beloved syntheses. Once you get stung they don't like to let you forget you fucked up.

I have a lot experience in computer programming and software design to draw from and its my pipe dream (no pun intended, seriously) to one day build a community-based, modular synthesis engine that allows a user to find a viable synthesis route to a chemical based on a set of given parameters like solvent availability, glassware, precursors, that kind of thing.
Abstract schematics have been drawn up but its a long way off yet.In fact the sooner I build a prototype the sooner I can start using it and stop wasting time constantly cross-checking rhodium and TSII and other chemical references to find viable routes based on precursor availability.

Thats my bit :) Hopefully I come across humble. I don't expect to make any great advances in underground chemistry but I do look forward to contributing and learning a lot and sharing my experiences for other people to glean information from.
 
Peace
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Vesp

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 08:03:41 PM »
Welcome! :D
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Wizard X

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2012, 01:51:28 AM »

I have a lot experience in computer programming and software design to draw from and its my pipe dream (no pun intended, seriously) to one day build a community-based, modular synthesis engine that allows a user to find a viable synthesis route to a chemical based on a set of given parameters like solvent availability, glassware, precursors, that kind of thing.
Abstract schematics have been drawn up but its a long way off yet.In fact the sooner I build a prototype the sooner I can start using it and stop wasting time constantly cross-checking rhodium and TSII and other chemical references to find viable routes based on precursor availability.



Interesting and WELCOME!!  ;)
Albert Einstein - "Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds."

dream0n

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 12:21:44 AM »
I really like this, and would be willing to contribute to a project like that!
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some_one

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2012, 12:49:57 PM »
I have a lot experience in computer programming and software design to draw from and its my pipe dream (no pun intended, seriously) to one day build a community-based, modular synthesis engine that allows a user to find a viable synthesis route to a chemical based on a set of given parameters like solvent availability, glassware, precursors, that kind of thing.
Abstract schematics have been drawn up but its a long way off yet.In fact the sooner I build a prototype the sooner I can start using it and stop wasting time constantly cross-checking rhodium and TSII and other chemical references to find viable routes based on precursor availability.

a program could suggest routes, but u could never take the thinking mind out of the equation. chemistry has too much variables that have to be considered.
which language you plan to program with?

anyways ur program has to be open source, or no one will use it.

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faust.motion

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 02:34:11 PM »
a program could suggest routes, but u could never take the thinking mind out of the equation. chemistry has too much variables that have to be considered.
I couldn't agree more. The routes would be constructed by humans and thats where the community aspect would come into it. I can imagine going through a lot of 'TEK's and formalizing them so they can be put into the system in a conveniently structured way that would allow processing by the software algorithms, and also cut down on 'thread' noise. Example:

Dave has just finished a novel method of brominating safrole with GAA, sulfuric and 'chemical x'. He's run the method a couple of times, taken detailed notes, recorded stuff like amounts used, time taken, etc, and he's even received feedback and confirmation that his method works by other like minds. There was a point in the process that involved an entirely new procedure that hadn't been documented anywhere, plus he also took advantage of a novel precursors, 'chemical x', which he had to synthesize himself.

After triple-checking his full procedure, and Dave is quite thorough because he's not some hack kitchen-chemist (he's a real scientist  ;) ), he then takes his notes to the computer to be put into this lovely new synthesis database. There he details the solvents and reagents used, the steps in the procedure, the intermediate compounds which we're arrived at during the course of the whole process, and the final compound. There were also side-reactions, by-products and contaminants and so he put these into the system as well.
The system was not aware of this new 'chemical x' though so Dave then enriched the database software by adding a new  compound entry. Information like boiling point, IUPAC name, CAS-number, chemical formula, safety notes, etc, were entered so that now anyone could look it up and learn about it. Being the considerate fellow he was, Dave also entered the full synthesis procedure for this chemical too so now anyone could see how to make it themselves if they couldn't find it through other means.

Now anyone using the system to learn how to make bromosafrole could see that were was a route that started with GAA, sulfuric acid and 'chemical x' and they could follow the steps outlined to get to bromosafrole. And say if an intermediate compound had a synthesis procedure hanging off of it (think of a tree with branches that eventually end up at the initial precursors) they could also learn about that procedure. So what you eventually end up with is a massive network consisting of procedural 'path's that are linked to chemical 'nodes' and so you can proceed from one node to another as you wish. If you have sulfuric acid but no GAA, or 'chemical x', you start from the lower branches of GAA/'chemical x' and work your way up until you get to bromosafrole, and from there you'll find all kinds of paths leading to many more nodes. And as more people like our altruistic chemist friend Dave contribute to and review the system, the bigger it grows and the more chemical routes people can see. Its great having choices.

Quote
which language you plan to program with?
I really enjoy programming in Python. The software would have to be in-browser as to eliminate any installation dependencies. There is a good-looking python-to-javascript WebGL framework that would fit the bill nicely. The demo's seem pretty solid. So anyone with a browser (thats every sane person using the Internet) could log onto the community-oriented synthesis software and start using it straight away.

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anyways ur program has to be open source, or no one will use it.
There's plenty of people out there who use free (often pirated) closed-source software  ;)

It seems you're alluding to security and transparency though, which is a very good point. How are you to know I'm not some sneaky fed raking in all your IP addresses or planting backdoors on your computers through XSS attacks?
Open source helps addresse those issues but not only that, it makes for better software. More eyes see more bugs and more possibilities and opportunities for improvement. It also helps with the workload.. I've only got one brain with so many hours in the day I can obsessively devote to software development. And believe me, when I obsess over something I REALLY obsess over it.  ;D

I did write up some basic formalization notes a few months back, maybe I should whip them out and get some feedback from everyone here.
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Polonium

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 02:49:38 PM »
This is something that would really help advance this community. We have so much information at our disposal now, the real difficulty is filtering the data and finding the writeups and data we want from thousands of threads across numerous sites.

This project looks to be quite an undertaking. Might I suggest something like a wiki be created first. On this system data/writeup's can be added and peer reviewed. When a reaction is fully completed, with photo's etc. and peer review it could be published as a peer reviewed, quality PDF. I think thats where we need to go as a community at this stage.

IMO, forums just are not the best method of sharing finished results and writeups. I have some experience with web development and I can set up a server for this if people are interested?

Once we have built up some quality data in something like a wiki we can work on the data structures and logic to link up synthesis / chemicals and routes. Let me know your opinions and I would love to see you notes faust.motion

faust.motion

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 03:25:31 PM »
This is something that would really help advance this community. We have so much information at our disposal now, the real difficulty is filtering the data and finding the writeups and data we want from thousands of threads across numerous sites.
+1 Couldn't agree more.

Quote
This project looks to be quite an undertaking. Might I suggest something like a wiki be created first. On this system data/writeup's can be added and peer reviewed. When a reaction is fully completed, with photo's etc. and peer review it could be published as a peer reviewed, quality PDF. I think thats where we need to go as a community at this stage.
That is an excellent suggestion! It would easily allow peer review and formalization; creating wiki pages is not beyond most somewhat-Internet-literate people. It could even serve as the backend to the synthesis-building software so changes to the wiki are immediately propagated up, and the information structure preserved in the wiki could serve as the base for data structuring. This also would free up the clutter of continuous annotations to the procedures and make the system appear a lot more sleek.

Oh I forgot to mention, there is a Python subset that ChemOffice have created to interface with their software. Bridging it and the proposed system would be a piece of cake, so the possibility of taking advantage of ChemOffice would also be there.
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nk40ouvm

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 08:05:47 PM »
There's a nice blog entry today on computer synthesis planning over at In the Pipeline:

hxxp://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2012/07/31/synthetic_chemistry_the_rise_of_the_algorithms.php

It's worth getting the articles, and the articles those articles cite, before writing your own software. To make a long story short: the planning algorithms are old hat, it's assembling a high quality database of chemical knowledge that distinguishes good synthesis planning software.

Wizard X

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carl_nnabis

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2012, 02:34:19 AM »
actually the idea behind your project including a whole microreactorsystem for automatised synthesis based on 3D-printer technology, has been already thought:
leroy cronin at glasgow university is currently developing such a project.
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dream0n

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2012, 02:55:45 AM »
In conclusion [we] should go collaborate with Sir Leroy, or donate?  Carl <3
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 05:05:04 AM by dream0n »
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carl_nnabis

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2012, 04:21:40 AM »
actually we should collaborate in my opinion, because his inventions is even in this early stage considered to be put under some sort of lobbyist ban because of the possibility everyone can at home synth his own patent covered, used to get monopolistic sold medication...
at least this is the official reason, but some governments, including the one where i live, think about to ban such a machine immediately because its essentially a drug lab useable without the tiniest bit of knowledge.

actually i think we should steal as much of his results as possible and beat his release at least six months earlier, so we could make the real big money out of it ;D
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faust.motion

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Re: computer programming background, clandestine from-scratch attitude
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2012, 03:16:48 PM »
BUMP!

Thanks a lot for the contributions. I'll be sure to check out the links provided and the notable names dropped. I'm currently on vacation so this thread has been far from my mind but I'm already very keen to get the ball rolling once again as soon as I'm home.

I especially like idea of setting up some wiki pages, at the least, which will allow some formalization of the techniques of the art.
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