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Author Topic: Bisulfite  (Read 291 times)

Sedit

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Bisulfite
« on: August 04, 2009, 05:18:50 AM »
Any suggestions? It appears my old supplyer of Bonaid metabisulfite has either fallen off the face of the fucking earth or stopped selling to home depot and such. One bottle of that normaly last a while but last time it got spilled in my carpet(all the hell over) gassing me out with SO2 for a few days.
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Vanadium

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2009, 05:47:36 AM »
http://www.hyperdeath.co.uk/chemicals/inorganic.php

 8) I get mine from a local brewery VERY cheaply.

heisenberg

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2009, 07:18:35 AM »
Isn't it still a pool chemical?
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Vesp

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2009, 07:21:41 AM »
Quote from: heisenberg on August 04, 2009, 07:18:35 AM
Isn't it still a pool chemical?

I believe you are thinking bisulfate, not bisulfite.

Iron Out contains sodium bisulfite and sodium dithionite or something like that, good for producing SO2, but I don't know if that is of any use to you.
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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2009, 09:10:46 AM »
what about constructing a device from metal tube with air supply made by a aquarium pump, to burn sulfur inside and pass SO2 through solution of Na2CO3 of NaOH. I didn't do that but i think it is a good option. Sulfur is cheap, electricity consumption is not high, besides it is independence from any suppliers
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 09:14:02 AM by zz-zhuchila »
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Vesp

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2009, 09:14:30 AM »
Probably need more then a fish pump bubbler, I've tried to do what you've suggested and I've had problems with not getting enough air in, as well as the sulfur, being impure - crusting over. Now that I think about it my bubbler was pretty weak, and may have had some problems.

Iron out, and other rust removers are really pretty decent sources of SO2, bisulfites, etc.

Zz, you got my PM right?
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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2009, 10:45:10 AM »
yes, i got.
maybe the air is needed to be passed fast enough for sulfur to burn. As for sulfur, there should be some place to add it in the reactor after previous is reacted, and that needs more improvements for device, as for purity we have pure sulfur avaliable in gardening stores (claimed content is 99,9%).
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Alchemist

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2009, 01:14:13 PM »
Try here,

Photographers' Formulary Sodium Bisulfite - 1 Lb. 10-1175 1LB  $7.50

and

Edwal Sodium Sulfite, Bulk Chemical, 2 Lb. Jar       Edwal Sodium Sulfite, Bulk Chemical, 2 Lb. Jar  $14.50

and

Sodium Bisulfite by Excalibur       Sodium Bisulfite by Excalibur 

The Alchemist.....

Vesp

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2009, 05:05:10 PM »
Quote from: zz-zhuchila on August 04, 2009, 10:45:10 AM
yes, i got.
maybe the air is needed to be passed fast enough for sulfur to burn. As for sulfur, there should be some place to add it in the reactor after previous is reacted, and that needs more improvements for device, as for purity we have pure sulfur avaliable in gardening stores (claimed content is 99,9%).

Really? My garden stores only sell 90%, the rest being clay or something else useless.
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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2009, 07:04:32 PM »
Yes, it is even 99,98%. I don't know why so high purity sulfur is needed in gardening, perhaps it is manufactured so purified being at the same time cheap
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heisenberg

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2009, 05:22:19 PM »
Quote from: Vesp on August 04, 2009, 07:21:41 AM
Quote from: heisenberg on August 04, 2009, 07:18:35 AM
Isn't it still a pool chemical?

I believe you are thinking bisulfate, not bisulfite.

Iron Out contains sodium bisulfite and sodium dithionite or something like that, good for producing SO2, but I don't know if that is of any use to you.


Right, I mixed the two up. Rust Out is what I've seen before, it's available at home depot and Ace.
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Amphetamine Chemist

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2009, 10:38:52 AM »
A Handy hint for all my brothers here. Sodium metabisulfite can be purchased from brewing supply stores in almost any country. With a cheap price tag attached.

Thanks.
- AmphChem.

Vesp

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2009, 12:48:21 AM »
while waiting for a reaction to finish (or.. at least objectively start) I decided I needed to make my own sodium bisulfite via the sulfur method, that I stated didn't work very well at all (esp. with my sulfur) earlier.

Well, I got a coffee can, punched a hole in the bottom and attached a glass tube to it, which was connected to a rubbertube that bubbled into a solution of conc. sodium hydroxide, and then into another solution of sodium hydroxide + magnetic stirrer.
The aspirator was then attached to another tube coming out of the last flasks and the water was turned on.

under the coffee can sulfur was burnt, and so in the first bubble jar sodium sulfite started to precipitate. Cool!
Well, the damn sulfur either won't stay lit or it burns to fast (absolutely no goldy lox zone!) and the sulfite solution got to thick for it to bubble decently, despite there still being tons of sodium hydroxide still left, This was later added to the last flask, and the first flask was removed. Same problems.

I've now abandoned this for a while, until I can find a wick or something to make a sulfur candle.. I think that will work out a lot better.

I'll toss some pictures up here when I can, so you'll see what I am saying - hopefully there is some room for improvements that I can't seem to think of.. other then the candle idea.

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Vesp

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2009, 01:44:27 AM »
Does anyone really think Sodium dithionite would infertere with forming carbonyl adduts?

Something I didn't realize earlier, is that I could purifiy the sodium bisulfite from the sodium dithionite by first adding a NaOH to it, and then an acid...

This is one way of doing it:

3 Na2S2O4 + 6 NaOH ? 5 Na2SO3 + Na2S + 3 H2O
NaHSO3 + NaOH = Na2SO3 + H2O

Now you'd have a solution of mostly all Na2SO3 + Na2S.

However I remember a reaction that goes like this:
SO2 + H2S = S + H2O

So, wouldn't adding SO2 to that just cause sulfur to precipitate?
This should mean that I could add an acid, which I would do anyways to reproduce the NaHSO3 from Na2SO3.

H2SO4 + Na2SO3 = NaHSO3 + NaHSO4 (I'll probably want to reconsider acids.. like HCl )

Do any of you guys recycle your sodium bisulfite? I think I will be... add a base, so Na2SO3 forms, the carbonyl is let off.. add an acid to make the NaHSO3 again.

Hell, that is all way to time consuming  >:(
Hopefully sodium dithionite doesn't interfere... I guess i'll do a little test with acetone in the next coupe of days to see if iron out is a decent -enough source of bisulfite.
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vajrakana

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2009, 06:03:09 AM »
Quote from: Amphetamine Chemist on August 11, 2009, 10:38:52 AM
A Handy hint for all my brothers here. Sodium metabisulfite can be purchased from brewing supply stores in almost any country. With a cheap price tag attached.

Thanks.
- AmphChem.

FYI metabisulfite forms the adduct as well. Test on some MEK as it reacts a little differently but all the procedures should work the same way. And brew shops have other good things as well.

zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2009, 10:22:44 AM »
2Vesp That is probably because of sulfur vapors. Not enough oxygen(or too big sulfur surface), besides it boils itself at around 300-400C. Vapors are condensed (did precepitate form immediately after sulfur was burnt?) to precepitate (there are some white modifications of S and they are obtained in similar way afaik). Sulfur is known to dissolve in hot sulfite to form Na2S2O3, which could (not sure) be hydrolysed to Na2SO4 and Na2S, and Na2S is known to react with S to give Na2Sn(polymer) solution which  is having high surface density! Try to use 1st flask with water, in order to get rid of sulfur, and second flask with NaOH.  Otherwise sulfite is substantially soluble in water, it is strange that it started to precepitate immediately
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 10:25:34 AM by zz-zhuchila »
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hypnos

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2010, 04:36:33 AM »
homebrewing suppliers for sure 8)
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headstrong

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2010, 01:41:35 PM »
Quote from: Vesp on August 23, 2009, 01:44:27 AM

This is one way of doing it:

3 Na2S2O4 + 6 NaOH ? 5 Na2SO3 + Na2S + 3 H2O
NaHSO3 + NaOH = Na2SO3 + H2O

Now you'd have a solution of mostly all Na2SO3 + Na2S.

However I remember a reaction that goes like this:
SO2 + H2S = S + H2O

So, wouldn't adding SO2 to that just cause sulfur to precipitate?
This should mean that I could add an acid, which I would do anyways to reproduce the NaHSO3 from Na2SO3.

H2SO4 + Na2SO3 = NaHSO3 + NaHSO4 (I'll probably want to reconsider acids.. like HCl )

Best way is by adding Na2SO4 into solution containing  Na2SO3 and Na2S, since sulphide will be spontaneously decomposed to sulphurous species.

Just an opinion, for bisulphite adduct if one start with Na2SO3, better generate NaHSO3 insitu, by addition of NaHSO4 as H+ source, addition of strong acids like H2SO4 and HCl may create many rotten egg vapor.

Sodium metabisulphite in water is hydrolysis to NaHSO3, absolutely the same.

SOMA

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2010, 09:15:29 PM »
If you want to go MacGyver you can burn a mixture of sulfur and potassium nitrate to generate SO2 gas and NOX, then pass trough NaOH soln until acidic and recristalize to obtain bisulfite without nitrates :)

NeilPatrickHarris

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Re: Bisulfite
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2010, 01:52:46 PM »
for those using sodium metabisulfite instead of sodium bisulfite, just remember that 1 mole of sodium metabisulfite becomes 2 moles of sodium bisulfite instantly when dissolved in h2o.  so if you're following a procedure that calls for an aqueous solution of sodium bisulfite and you're using sodium metabisulfite in its place then you'll want to take that into account and only use 91.3% w/w what is called for, IE: use 91.3g weight of sodium metabisulfite to equal 100g weight of sodium bisulfite in an aqueous solution.

Na2S2O5 + H2O -> 2 NaHSO3
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