Author Topic: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Update -- Failure*  (Read 894 times)

bjuice

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Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Update -- Failure*
« on: February 24, 2013, 12:43:41 AM »
Ok, this is going to be a 50g run from start to finish.  I've made a good bit of (what I think is) bromosafrole already, but haven't gone through with the finkelstein or amination yet.  Here we go...

50g Safrole
57.4g H2SO4
66.6g NaBr
71.1g Glacial Acetic Acid

NaBr added to GAA
Stirred for about 10 minutes.  Excuse my dirty ass hotplate....I'm always getting messy with the oil.


Slowly dripping H2SO4 (about 30 min)
With stirring


H2SO4 addition complete.  Beaker was a little warm at the end


Chilled everything in the freezer and added safrole
Color change began immediately.  It was purple within minutes.  You'll notice there are actually 4 layers here.  One at the bottom is all salts, top is safrole, below that is GAA, and below that (second from bottom) is a mix of GAA and salts.  I believe this happened because I put the beaker into the freezer before the salts had settled completely, and some of those salts sort of got stuck there.  I'm a little worried that this prevented contact between HBr and safrole...


After 38 hours
I swirled it every now and then.  Jon says not to swirl so as to not entrain product into salts, but really the salts form a hard cake at the bottom and swirling doesn't present a problem.


Flooded with ice-cold water


Added 40 ml DCM to aid in separation


Washing with bicarb and brine


DCM & oil


I'm letting the oil/solvent dry over MgSO4 for the next 24 hours, after which I will remove the solvent under vacuum and proceed with the finkelstein.  By the way, people say not to use DCM for this because you'll get an emulsion, but that's only true if you wash with plain water.  I washed with bicarb and brine, but not plain water.  Don't think it's necessary really.  Also, I don't shake like crazy.  Gentle rocking and mixing is important.

Stay tuned!  I'm excited  ;D
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 08:33:18 AM by bjuice »

Whale

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *In Progress*
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2013, 12:51:44 AM »
YOWZA! I was planning to do this myself sometime soon! Keep up the good work bud. Cant wait for more. ;D ;D

Sneak

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *In Progress*
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2013, 01:49:35 AM »
Yeh man keep going...
If you really want to enjoy a pure, clean product the only way... is to make it yourself...

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bjuice

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *In Progress*
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2013, 10:58:04 AM »
Well after a few hours I decided that getting my oil completely dry was unnecessary.  Also, reduced-pressure removal of the solvent would inevitably get ride of any substantial moisture seeing as how my pump gets down to around 0.5 torr.

Note: Looks like the image host I'm using might be blocking some Tor connections.  If you don't see images in my posts and you are using Tor, just change your Tor identity and refresh until you see images.

The oil after removal of solvent
Started off with the aspirator and once that got all it could, finished it off with the big guy.  Yield: 44.8g Bromosafrole -- 60%.  Now I should mention here that the estimated density of bromosafrole is 1.48 g/cm3 (courtesy of Chemspider), but this weighed in at 1.11 g/cm3.  Looks like there's probably unreacted safrole in the mix.  Not sure exactly why, but I suspect it may be due to that suspended NaBr layer that I mention in my initial post.  Anyway, here it is:


Stirring NaI into acetone
I used 1.1 molar excess of NaI.  That is 30.3g.  I dissolved it into acetone first.  Took about 125 ml of acetone to get it dissolved (wikipedia says something like 38g / 100 ml acetone).


Addition of bromosafrole
It turned opaque yellow immediately upon addition of the bromosafrole.


After stirring for 30 minutes
Stopped stirring and it began to separate.  Top layer is oil/acetone and bottom is oil/acetone/NaBr.  All that bromide salt is encouraging!


Flooded with water
Oil on top, acetone/water on bottom.


Separated
Here's the top layer from the above pic.  Notice that I started with around 50g of oil and ended up with over 80.  Most likely water entrained into the mix.


Extracting the aqueous layer with DCM
After extracting into DCM, I combined DCM with the oil from the above pic.  I then washed twice with water.


DCM and initial top layer combined, after washing
Again, more volume that I expected but I think it's just water or acetone mixed in.


Vacuuming off the solvent
Got so cold that ice formed on the outside of the flask!  Based off this, I'm assuming the excess volume was due mainly to acetone.


And here's the Iodosafrole
Weight: 43.6g.  That's 81.5% yield from bromosafrole.  Considering that the finkelstein should be near-quantitative, this supports the idea that my bromo contained unreacted safrole.  Unfortunate, but I'm ok with that.  It shouldn't pose any issues in the amination, and I'll probably get it back when I'm salting my hunny.


Right now I have 99% IPA, but I'd like to get it as dry as possible for the amination.  Once my Na2CO3 comes in I'll be moving on to the final product.  This should be in the next week.  Probably next weekend as I'm pretty busy on weekdays.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 11:20:54 AM by bjuice »

Sneak

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2013, 12:34:54 PM »
Good work. Pics are a great addition.

Can't wait for part 3.
If you really want to enjoy a pure, clean product the only way... is to make it yourself...

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take...

zgoat65

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2013, 06:06:59 PM »
nice work, bjuice!  Very interested in the outcome.
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bjuice

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2013, 06:20:36 PM »
Btw input is welcome! I'm especially curious about the fact that my oil is less dense than I hoped.  Also a second eye on the stoichiometry would be helpful. I try to double check my calcs but even then I screw it up sometimes.

Assyl Fartrate

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2013, 08:20:14 PM »
It's probably not a bad idea to keep that reaction cold when you're adding the H2SO4 to make your HBr. The orange coloration is most likely due to Br2, which is obviously not going to be helpful. It looks like you used an excess of NaBr, which is a good idea considering that H2SO4 oxidizes HBr to Br2. It's probably best to only let it go for a few minutes, as with time, you may see more of this oxidation.

Are you using pure safrole? It's actually desirable to use the crude sassafras oil, as the phenolic compounds are radical inhibitors. HBr can add anti-Markovnikov in the presence of trace amounts of peroxides, or when exposed to UV light, meaning you would get the wrong product.

Did you check the density of your safrole beforehand? 1.11g/mL isn't far from the reported value, and seems to suggest that your yield may have been low. Definitely plan on recovering unreacted safrole. Assyl would prepare that HBr solution as you did, except cold, and filter out the solids so that stirring with the safrole is possible (though many procedures say not to stir, is this just a mechanical issue regarding the salts, or is not typically filtered due to pKa derived equilibrium existing, where there's a lot of H2SO4 and NaBr and not much HBr and NaHSO4?). It wouldn't hurt to wrap it up in aluminum foil to suppress any radical chemistry that may be going on.

If you want clean HBr, Assyl would suggest something along the lines of a typical HCl generator, except bubbling the gas through a trap with cold TCE or DCM (or even petroleum ether perhaps) to catch Br2. Anything that passes through should be relatively clean, dry HBr.

The crystals that crashed out during the addition of the bromosafrole (or whatever it is) may have dropped out just because they aren't soluble in that oil. It went from a saturated solution in acetone to a 30% solution of a relatively non-polar oil, so it wouldn't be surprising. Did you filter and weigh the solids, or characterize them in any way? You could check the density of them by adding to a graduated cylinder of petroleum ether (so you can calculate the volume). Wash them with petroleum ether first, and pull off any remaining solvent under vacuum (hope you have a trap by the way, as some of the things you may be pulling off aren't so nice to pumps). The density would offer some clue just how far the reaction went towards completion.

MgSO4 will dry your oil very quickly, 24 hours is unnecessary. Once the solution is clear, and the MgSO4 added no longer clumpy, it's dry. If it remains cloudy and the MgSO4 isn't clumping, it's probably dry and you're just seeing suspended solids - pull it through celite (diatomaceous earth) and it'll clear up.

As for drying alcohol, a bit of lithium from a battery will do in a pinch. Distillation is of course necessary. Other drying agents such as MgSO4 will dissolve in the alcohol, so distillation is necessary with those, too - they really aren't ideal anyway. How are you planning on generating your methylamine?

Use a stirbar and a warm water (30C) bath for pulling off those solvents! You'd be amazed how well solvents will stick in oils. You can get a lot more out by adding and pulling off a low boiling solvent several times, such as diethyl ether, it'll carry solvents like acetone out that may otherwise stubbornly stay behind. Probably unnecessary here, but if you're concerned, it's the way to do it.

Do you have access to TLC plates, or any other way to analyze your products? Safrole should run faster on silica than bromosafrole, and would probably visualize better with UV.

Some advice from jon:

Quote
to test it get some sulfuric acid freezing cold then add a drop of the extracted bromosafrole to it.
it should sit on top if it has any alkene the acid will turn purple.

Thanks for sharing your results and posting great photos. Keep it up the good work.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 08:58:22 PM by Assyl Fartrate »
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bjuice

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2013, 09:01:25 PM »
It's probably not a bad idea to keep that reaction cold when you're adding the H2SO4 to make your HBr. The orange coloration is most likely due to Br2, which is obviously not going to be helpful. It looks like you used an excess of NaBr, which is a good idea considering that H2SO4 oxidizes HBr to Br2. It's probably best to only let it go for a few minutes, as with time, you may see more of this oxidation.
Good advice -- I've tried keeping it cold in the past but kept having issues with the acetic acid freezing up on me.  But that was with an ice bath.  Maybe I could just submerge in water with a temperature slightly lower than GAAs melting point.

Quote
Are you using pure safrole? It's actually desirable to use the crude sassafras oil, as the phenolic compounds are radical inhibitors. HBr can add anti-Markovnikov in the presence of trace amounts of peroxides, or when exposed to UV light, meaning you would get the wrong product.
Yes it's pretty much pure, and unfortunately I'm not in the market to be getting any more safrole in the forseeable future.  I'll look into some phenolic compound-containing OTC oil that I can possibly add in.  I'll watch out for the UV light too.  It was kept in a dark freezer sealed with saran wrap most of the time, but definitely exposed to bright light a few times.

Quote
Did you check the density of your safrole beforehand? 1.11g/mL isn't far from the reported value, and seems to suggest that your yield may have been low. Definitely plan on recovering unreacted safrole. Assyl would prepare that HBr solution as you did, except cold, and filter out the solids so that stirring with the safrole is possible (though many procedures say not to stir, is this just a mechanical issue regarding the salts?). It wouldn't hurt to wrap it up in aluminum foil to suppress any radical chemistry that may be going on.
No didn't check it beforehand, but I have more safrole that I can check.  As for filtering -- I've thought about doing this but reasoned that since not all the NaBr dissolves in the GAA, it may be useful to leave it in so that as the reaction progresses more HBr can be formed.

Quote
If you want clean HBr, Assyl would suggest something along the lines of a typical HCl generator, except bubbling the gas through a trap with cold TCE or DCM (or even petroleum ether perhaps) to catch Br2. Anything that passes through should be relatively clean, dry HBr.
I've tried and tried to generate HBr gas an always have issues with Br2 like you say.  I've tried bubbling through cold naptha before the GAA and I think it ended up trapping a lot (or most) of the HBr gas.  After dripping a lot of H2SO4 over a lot of NaBr the naptha was fuming heavily and the GAA weighed in at a density much less than the 33% I was shooting for.  Tried heating H3PO4/NaBr as well -- barely got any gas out of that one.  I suspect that DCM and TCE would hold even more gas than naptha.  I mean, you can't get much more non-polar than naptha.

Quote
The crystals that crashed out during the addition of the bromosafrole (or whatever it is) may have dropped out just because they aren't soluble in that oil. It went from a saturated solution in acetone to a 30% solution of a relatively non-polar oil, so it wouldn't be surprising. Did you filter and weigh the solids, or characterize them in any way? You could check the density of them by adding to a graduated cylinder of petroleum ether (so you can calculate the volume). Pull solvent off them first with your vacuum pump (hope you have a trap by the way, as some of the things you may be pulling off aren't so nice to pumps). The density would offer some clue just how far the reaction went towards completion.
Nope didn't check them...they are sitting in the lab dissolved in the aqueous layer and washings from the iodo workup.  I suppose I could distill the water and acetone off to see what they are.  I may end up doing that.

Quote
MgSO4 will dry your oil very quickly, 24 hours is unnecessary. Once the solution is clear, and the MgSO4 added no longer clumpy, it's dry. If it remains cloudy and the MgSO4 isn't clumping, it's probably dry and you're just seeing suspended solids - pull it through celite (diatomaceous earth) and it'll clear up.
Good to know.

Quote
As for drying alcohol, a bit of lithium from a battery will do in a pinch. Distillation is of course necessary. Other drying agents such as MgSO4 will dissolve in the alcohol, so distillation is necessary with those, too - they really aren't ideal anyway. How are you planning on generating your methylamine?
I've read that Na2CO3 would work for drying IPA, but the lithium thing is intriguing.  Could you give me any more information on that?  Would I just, say, go pick up some lithium AAs from the drug store, break them open, and scoop out the goop (or whatever it is) inside?  How much would I need to dry, say, a gallon of 99% IPA?

I have methylamine HCl.  I'll put it in a cooled flask and drip saturated NaOH solution onto it.  Don't plan on drying the gas as jon has repeatedly said it's not necessary if things are kept cool.  My IPA will be cooled with dry-ice chilled acetone.  I have a stone bubbler to increase surface area for maximum absorption.

I've also heard that NaOH can be used to dry 91% IPA.  I wonder if it would do anything for my 99%?

Quote
Use a stirbar and a warm water (30C) bath for pulling off those solvents! You'd be amazed how well solvents will stick in oils. You can get a lot more out by adding and pulling off a low boiling solvent several times, such as diethyl ether, it'll carry solvents like acetone out that may otherwise stubbornly stay behind. Probably unnecessary here, but if you're concerned, it's the way to do it.
I'll consider that.  I'm really scared of heating these halosafroles due to the possibility of degradation or elimination reactions.

Quote
Do you have access to TLC plates, or any other way to analyze your products? Safrole should run faster on silica than bromosafrole, and would probably visualize better with UV.
No, I don't.

Quote
Some advice from jon:

Quote
to test it get some sulfuric acid freezing cold then add a drop of the extracted bromosafrole to it.
it should sit on top if it has any alkene the acid will turn purple.
I might do that next time round.  Seems like a good way to test for the bromo compound, but I can see it being really imprecise.  I don't think it would give much of an indication of purity or ratio of safrole to bromo since we don't have a set standard of color/time to compare to.

Thanks a ton for the advice this has been very very helpful.  A question -- I'm assuming that since my oil is full of safrole that I don't need to use the standard 8:1 ration of methylamine to iodo.  I'm considering cutting that to 4:1 in order to save methylamine.  Or should I stick with 8:1 because the CH2NH3 will be crowding the safrole molecules as well?  Thoughts on that?

Whale

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2013, 09:10:02 PM »
Quote
I've read that Na2CO3 would work for drying IPA, but the lithium thing is intriguing.  Could you give me any more information on that?  Would I just, say, go pick up some lithium AAs from the drug store, break them open, and scoop out the goop (or whatever it is) inside?  How much would I need to dry, say, a gallon of 99% IPA?
hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxb31r1LaEY
hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BliWUHSOalU
Remember it corrodes really quickly in air, so have a lil cup of mineral spirits to dump it in afterwards. And you can just keep on adding lithium until it stops fizzing
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 09:13:50 PM by %1 »

bjuice

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2013, 09:22:39 PM »
Excellent thank you %1.

bjuice

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 09:31:20 PM »
Man that's a ton of metal from one battery.  I bet 2-4 batteries would be more than enough to get the IPA dry.  God I wish I didn't have so much to do today -- if I didn't I could probably aminate by the end of the day.  Sadly, it will have to wait.

Assyl Fartrate

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2013, 09:37:15 PM »
Quote
Good advice -- I've tried keeping it cold in the past but kept having issues with the acetic acid freezing up on me.  But that was with an ice bath.  Maybe I could just submerge in water with a temperature slightly lower than GAAs melting point.

You could try this, and perhaps after adding a bit of H2SO4 the freezing point will be depressed enough to drop it into an ice bath.

Quote
Yes it's pretty much pure, and unfortunately I'm not in the market to be getting any more safrole in the forseeable future.  I'll look into some phenolic compound-containing OTC oil that I can possibly add in.  I'll watch out for the UV light too.  It was kept in a dark freezer sealed with saran wrap most of the time, but definitely exposed to bright light a few times.

BHT, eugenol, and vitamin E are a few potential options. You shouldn't need much, maybe 1 mol% or so...

Quote
I've tried and tried to generate HBr gas an always have issues with Br2 like you say.  I've tried bubbling through cold naptha before the GAA and I think it ended up trapping a lot (or most) of the HBr gas.  After dripping a lot of H2SO4 over a lot of NaBr the naptha was fuming heavily and the GAA weighed in at a density much less than the 33% I was shooting for.  Tried heating H3PO4/NaBr as well -- barely got any gas out of that one.  I suspect that DCM and TCE would hold even more gas than naptha.  I mean, you can't get much more non-polar than naptha.

You're probably right about DCM and TCE holding more HBr. To reduce Br2 generation it may help to dilute the H2SO4 to 50% or so first. Keep it cold, including the H2SO4 that has yet to be added, if possible. If too much HBr is getting caught in the trap, either use less solvent, or switch to no solvent and a dry ice/acetone bath (to condense the Br2).

Has anyone tried bubbling in SO2 to clear up some of the Br2?

SO2 + Br2 + H2O --> H2SO4 + 2HBr

Quote
I've read that Na2CO3 would work for drying IPA, but the lithium thing is intriguing.  Could you give me any more information on that?  Would I just, say, go pick up some lithium AAs from the drug store, break them open, and scoop out the goop (or whatever it is) inside?  How much would I need to dry, say, a gallon of 99% IPA?

I have methylamine HCl.  I'll put it in a cooled flask and drip saturated NaOH solution onto it.  Don't plan on drying the gas as jon has repeatedly said it's not necessary if things are kept cool.  My IPA will be cooled with dry-ice chilled acetone.  I have a stone bubbler to increase surface area for maximum absorption.

I've also heard that NaOH can be used to dry 91% IPA.  I wonder if it would do anything for my 99%?

NaOH probably won't help much with 99% IPA.

If it has been reported that a bit of water in the methylamine is okay, maybe you don't really need rigorously dried IPA anyway?

The idea is to use lithium metal to react with any residual water, producing LiOH. So, you will be able to take up about 1/7 moles of water with one gram of lithium. Water is more acidic than isopropanol, so it's going to react preferentially.

Quote
I might do that next time round.  Seems like a good way to test for the bromo compound, but I can see it being really imprecise.  I don't think it would give much of an indication of purity or ratio of safrole to bromo since we don't have a set standard of color/time to compare to.

Thanks a ton for the advice this has been very very helpful.  A question -- I'm assuming that since my oil is full of safrole that I don't need to use the standard 8:1 ration of methylamine to iodo.  I'm considering cutting that to 4:1 in order to save methylamine.  Or should I stick with 8:1 because the CH2NH3 will be crowding the safrole molecules as well?  Thoughts on that?

The sulfuric acid test will at least tell you if the reaction is complete.

Regarding methylamine usage, it's really a question of what's more valuable - the safrole, or the methylamine.
Someone Who Is Me

bjuice

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 09:48:56 PM »
Quote
Regarding methylamine usage, it's really a question of what's more valuable - the safrole, or the methylamine.

At the moment methylamine is more valuable, but if my experiments with Fe reduction of nitromethane work out I'll be in methylamine heaven soon enough. ( http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,3571.0.html )  I may shoot for 8:1 to be safe.

Quote
BHT, eugenol, and vitamin E are a few potential options. You shouldn't need much, maybe 1 mol% or so...

Vitamine E!  Excellent!!

bjuice

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 10:15:50 PM »
I just want to point something out regarding my impurity.  If you look at the image below (flooding the bromo rxn to crash out the oil) you'll see that there are two different oil layers.  Now this could be random happenstance, but I think it's likely that they are two different compounds.  Maybe safrole rich oil in the middle, and bromo rich oil at the bottom.  If this were the case it would point to a fairly low yield of the bromo compound.  I may just get another bromo run going today so that I can hopefully have something better to work with when it comes time to aminate.


Assyl Fartrate

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2013, 10:24:42 PM »
Try the test suggested by jon first - a drop in some sulfuric acid - just to confirm that your impurity is safrole, and not some other solvent picked up along the way.

You'll find ways to make more methylamine, so it's wise to treat the safrole you have as precious. It's not nearly so easy to procure or replace, unless you live outside of North America or Europe.
Someone Who Is Me

Whale

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2013, 10:30:30 PM »
Are you sure that it was fully separated and settled when you took the picture? It seems to bee coming to a point with the suspected safrol-rich layer on the right side

bjuice

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 11:04:57 PM »
Try the test suggested by jon first - a drop in some sulfuric acid - just to confirm that your impurity is safrole, and not some other solvent picked up along the way.

You'll find ways to make more methylamine, so it's wise to treat the safrole you have as precious. It's not nearly so easy to procure or replace, unless you live outside of North America or Europe.

Ok I'll try the test later today.  By the way I'm not sure I understand why the tradeoff is between safrole and methylamine.  Why would using less or more methylamine affect the amount of safrole I recover in the final workup?

Are you sure that it was fully separated and settled when you took the picture? It seems to bee coming to a point with the suspected safrol-rich layer on the right side

Yeah it was pretty settled.  I'd swirled around a bit then let it sit.  The unevenness of the middle layer is simply due to movement of the water layer above it.

Whale

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 11:08:22 PM »
I think he(she)'s saying that you can always easily make more methylamine while procuring safrol (or sassy oil) is harder

Assyl Fartrate

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Re: Jon's Method From Start To Finish *Updated - Finkelstein complete*
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2013, 11:17:59 PM »
Quote
Ok I'll try the test later today.  By the way I'm not sure I understand why the tradeoff is between safrole and methylamine.  Why would using less or more methylamine affect the amount of safrole I recover in the final workup?

It won't affect the amount of safrole recovered, but it will affect the amount of MDMA you get from the safrole used.
Someone Who Is Me