Author Topic: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)  (Read 422 times)

Moriarty

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A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« on: September 22, 2009, 04:23:47 AM »
Okay, I copy and pasted from another forum.  Like I said, this is nothing anyone doesn't already know, here anyway.  There will be a short addendum to be added regarding some hypotheses I have.  I will add them when I have time.

Background

It has been noted by many over the years that the aluminum amalgamation can be a difficult route to obtain consistent yields of amine when making methylamine in situ from nitromethane.  Many reaction parameters have been suggested and a sort of folklore surrounds the issue as to how much of of each reactant is to be used as well as substrate.  The issue is so confused that debate about how much Hg++ salt is needed and addition time, amongst other factors, is a constant source of debate.  It is likely that the amalgamation favors the reduction of nitromethane over imine reduction and that addition time is probably not much of a factor.  However, the following two (2) amalgamations were only devised to determine two (2) factor: One, that 400-500mg of Hg++ salt is more than what is needed for a good yield; and two that external heat is probably not necessary for this reaction.

An amalgamation was formed in a 2-liter flat bottomed flask using the following parameters:

The Parameters

-950ml of methanol
-90-100mg HgCl2
-37.6 grams of aluminum
-30.9 grams nitromethane
-50 grams of a ketone that is estimated 77% MD-whatever and 23% some alkene, so the estimated ketone is 38.5 grams)
-An additional portion of methanol is added to the ketone/nitromethane mixture until a volume of 150ml is obtained

Experiment #1

In a 2-liter flat bottomed flask was added 90-100mg HgCl2 and then 950ml methanol.  It was allowed to stir for 1 minute and then, as stirring was continued, 37.6 grams of aluminum foil that was prepared by grinding in a coffee grinder was added.  This was allowed to stir for another minute.  The stirring was then stopped and the amalgamation allowed to form for 30 minutes.  Stirring was begun and addition was started.  At this point external heat was added immediately.  The dial on the hotplate was set to a setting similar to what is required for mild reflux of methanol.  Addition was completed withing 30 minutes.  The mixture was allowed to stir.  An additional 200ml methanol was dropped as fast as it could so as if to wash the aluminum sludge that had climbed up the flask during the peak of the reaction back into the mother liquor.  Mild reflux was maintained for 5 hours.  The external heat was discontinued and the flask allowed to cool.  The reaction flask was flooded slowly with ~30% NaOH.  Little heat was noticed as the NaOH was added.  It was allowed to cool then extracted with three (3) portions of xylene that were 250ml each.  An additional extraction with 50ml of xylene was done.  These extractions were combined and added to a 4-liter separation funnel.  The xylene and amine solution was ~850ml.  The xylene/amine was washed three (3) times with 1000ml distilled water and once more with 1000ml of a saturated NaCl solution.  The organic layer was then dried with 40 grams of CaCl2.  It was dried for 10 minutes and then filtered.  The CaCl2 was caked at the bottom of the flask used for drying and another 25ml of xylene was added.  After 5 minutes that was filtered and added to the extraction.  Anhydrous HCl gas was used to form the organic salt.  The amine was filtered and residual xylene was removed by three (3) acetone washes that were decanted.  The organic salt was then dried.  A yield of 32 to 36 grams is generally obtained without any scrapping of beakers and drying plates.

Yield: 31.7 grams of a fluffy white powder


Experiment #2

In a 2-liter flat bottomed flask was added 90-100mg HgCl2 and then 950ml methanol. It was allowed to stir for 1 minute and then, as stirring was continued, 37.6 grams of aluminum foil that was prepared by grinding in a coffee grinder was added. This was allowed to stir for another minute. The stirring was then stopped and the amalgamation allowed to form for 30 minutes. Stirring was begun and addition was started.  Addition was completed withing 30 minutes. The mixture was allowed to stir. An additional 200ml methanol was dropped as fast as it could so as if to wash the aluminum sludge that had climbed up the flask during the peak of the reaction back into the mother liquor. The reaction was allowed to continue for 5 hours with no external heat.  The reaction flask was flooded slowly with ~30% NaOH. Little heat was noticed as the NaOH was added.  It was allowed to cool and then was extracted with three (3) portions of xylene that were 250ml each. An additional extraction with 50ml of xylene was done. These extractions were combined and added to a 4-liter separation funnel. The xylene and amine solution was ~850ml. The xylene/amine was washed three (3) times with 1000ml distilled water and once more with 1000ml of a saturated NaCl solution. The organic layer was then dried with 40 grams of CaCl2. It was dried for 10 minutes and then filtered. The CaCl2 was caked at the bottom of the flask used for drying and another 25ml of xylene was added. After 5 minutes that was filtered and added to the extraction. Anhydrous HCl gas was used to form the organic salt. The amine was filtered and residual xylene was removed by three (3) acetone washes that were decanted. The organic salt was then dried. A yield of 32 to 36 grams is generally obtained without any scrapping of beakers and drying plates.

Yield: 31.9 grams of fluffy white powder

Notes: Originally the idea was to use 30 grams of nitromethane but 30.9 was accidentally measured into the ketone.  The aluminum and nothing else was adjusted as the reduction of nitromethane is believed to be more favorable than the imine.  At the very least we know it happens first.  So 36 grams of aluminum became 37.6.  These aren't accurate yields as extraction and distillation of the freebase oil is best for getting all the amine and not losing it to all those washes.  It might be noted that 3 or 4 DH2O washes followed by a saturated NaCl wash can probably be substituted with just two (2) saturated NaCl washes (brine).

Conclusion

The results show that a good yield to amine can be had utilizing the aluminum amalgamation, where methylamine is made in situation, with as little as 100mg of HgCl2 if note less and that external heating is probably not necessary.

Moriarty

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Addendum
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2009, 04:31:47 AM »
Addendum

This reaction was done again with 36 grams of Al, 30 grams of nitromethane and no heat.  Instead of washing 4 times with DH2O and then once with brine it was washed twice with brine (saturated NaCl) and product was 34.2 grams of a fluffy white powder that, from years and years gassing products, I can assure you was at least just a little more pure than the others.  Anyone who uses anhydrous HCl to form the organic salt knows that a purer amine base produces a fluffier powder and is a little less "dense", although I'm not 1000% sure that term applies here but y'all know what I mean.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 04:33:50 AM by Moriarty »

Sedit

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2009, 07:42:44 PM »
Thank you for sharing Moriarty, these are the type of experiments we need more of where two reactions are run with little change other then one variable. I have noticed a while back heat is of no need as well and after allowing time for the amalgum to begin to pick up steam, noticeable from larger amount of fine bubbles then when began, no heat is needed. The heat generated from the Nitroalkene/Ketone mixture has been more then enough to keep the reaction kicking off in the right direction.

Might I add a suggestion for further experimentaion. Compairing the yeilds from 600mg and 100mg or HgCl2.

As well there is a reference just posted I will PM you the link to that details the reduction of imines thru the use of 5% (aq)NaOH solution and Zinc dust. To do away with Hg amalgum altogether would be one of the greatest advancements in a while in my eyes.


PS: Love the layout of the presentation. Nice work.
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poisoninthestain

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 08:05:26 PM »
I agree with Sedit props! I have always used just a dash of mercuric chloride for every 500ml and gentle heating to kick it off.



Moriarty

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 08:06:20 PM »
I tried to present it like a normal work of scientific presentation.  We've all spent tons of time reading Abstracts and Experiments in journals.  It wasn't hard to present in some semi-professional manner.

As for several trials, well, I agree 100% but if you read between the lines the experimenter has seen more fluffy white stuff in a decade than you can imagine.  Or maybe you can.  It's been done over and over again.  The reality is that the more aluminum and methylamine you can add to the equation, the better the yield.  As I mentioned, normal imine formation is at least 3X molar excess of methylamine to ketone.  That's just not a reality without overhead stirring.

Anyway, I think the direction I will take with this is to have it done a few more times to confirm the results and then move on.  I am starting to believe ethanol a better mother liquor and will likely have that tried next.  I am just looking for solvent values for methylamine and ethanol.

As for the nitroalkene (I think you meant nitroalkane)/ketone mixture creating enough heat to drive the reaction I just think the reaction is exothermic and yields will pretty much hold so long as temperatures don't drop below activation energy.  You could probably pull off similar yields in the refrigerator but where would you find the room  ;)!

Again, thanks for the high praise but most of this is stuff we all know already.  I like your notions of imine reduction.  I'd love to read the reference.

Moriarty
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 08:09:00 PM by Moriarty »

Sedit

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 08:20:28 PM »
Quote
I tried to present it like a normal work of scientific presentation.  We've all spent tons of time reading Abstracts and Experiments in journals.  It wasn't hard to present in some semi-professional manner.

My thougts as well Moriarty, if all in the underground thought that way as well we might just get some progress forward once again.

Nitroalkane is what I ment. Its what I get for not double checking my post.

Happyman provided this in our short question threed recently(4th post down as of now)
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=83395&aid=2199

Reduction of imines using NaOH+Zinc dust in a purely aq enviroment. Not to lead this threed to far off topic but to me it suggest that one could use an (aq)MeNH2 solution to form the Schiffs base which is stable in an aq mixture add a bit of NaOH and Zinc and 20 minutes to a few hours later extract your amine. It you look at my random experiment threed over in other chemistry you can see where I recently uses a NaOH/Al to reduce Sodium nitrate to what Im presuming to be  Ammonia + NaOH. I can't help but wounder if the same will apply to MeNO2 producing Methylamine above a critical temperature.
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Douchermann

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 06:18:17 PM »
 I am starting to believe ethanol a better mother liquor and will likely have that tried next.  I am just looking for solvent values for methylamine and ethanol.
Moriarty

I've heard that higher boiling alcohols such as ethanol and isopropyl alcohol adversely affect the reaction due to the temperature at which it refluxes.  This could be all hearsay though.

jon

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 06:24:40 PM »
one question you guys have to be running dry ice acetone through that condesor to keep the methyamine from escaping i don't likey.
much better the cold method.

NeilPatrickHarris

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 06:40:47 PM »
 I am starting to believe ethanol a better mother liquor and will likely have that tried next.  I am just looking for solvent values for methylamine and ethanol.
Moriarty

I've heard that higher boiling alcohols such as ethanol and isopropyl alcohol adversely affect the reaction due to the temperature at which it refluxes.  This could be all hearsay though.

Are you referring to spice's experience with IPA in the al/hg?

h**p://www.psychonaut.com/index.php?option=com_forum&Itemid=11&page=viewtopic&t=34870




Quote from: spice
The first time I tried the al/hg, ever, I had a pretty scary accident with it.

I was using a funny flask with a round bottom and a long neck, (a big kjeldal flask)

see here at http://www.microscopes.com/ms-ki-be-89001-842.html

and the amalgam caught on fire. I freaked out and spun around and the shit erupted out of the flask and shot halfway across the room.

Quote from: sedit
WOW never seen it catch fire.
Always feared it but never seen it. Good to know.

Shit gets so hot it aint funny and your sitting there adding nitromethane, which can be lit from a stray ash from a cig, and all one can think is... "Is this a smart thing to be doing adding highly flammible material to something this hot"

Quote from: spice
Yeah, it was before the nitromethane al/hg was around, way back when we were all figuring out the ways to make methylamine with hexamine, etc....

Back then, everyone used to advocate isopropyl alcohol as a solvent for al/hg reductions... (of course, people back then were saying how tar would form in the al/hg if it goes over 50 c too, which I know now is absolute BS).....


Because I was using isopropyl, preparing the amalgam was more energetic, simply because the higher bp of the isopropyl let it absorb more overall energy
(not a good thing for me) AND, I had not yet worked out the proper ratios, solvent amounts, etc.....so there was a little more aluminum than it should be, a little less solvent than there should be, AND the aluminum was super-thin cheap foil....= runaway

Douchermann

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2009, 08:03:35 PM »
I was actually referencing the tar formation that spice speaks of in the third quoted post.  After reading that, I believe I was correct in saying it was hearsay haha.  Was it uncle fester that originally suggested that idea?

Moriarty

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2009, 08:15:55 PM »
"one question you guys have to be running dry ice acetone through that condesor to keep the methyamine from escaping i don't likey."

That is sort of the idea.  You can smell that fishy methylamine coming out of the condenser and I too have realized that it simply won't condense.  Your only options are to opt for a lower temperature, being whereas methanol boils at 60C, or a higher boiling solvent.  The methylamine is solvated in methanol.  Once that starts to reflux it's not available as a solvent.  If the methylamine escapes it certainly won't be available to form the imine, not to mention it's poisonous (If I remember correctly).  So what to do?  Well, one might try a much slower addition rate?  One might try a higher boiling solvent.  Ethanol is cheap and boils ~20C higher.  Likely both will be tried.

vajrakana

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2009, 12:16:09 AM »
Just out of curiosity.. have you tried using an ethanol/methanol mix? Or an IPA mix with methanol and/or ethanol?

Has anyone tried this one? I don't recall...I certainly haven't. Probably should though :)

Sedit

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2009, 12:44:42 AM »
No reports of a mix, but I hear EtOH works quite well in that it indeed yeild product after a reductive amination.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 12:46:27 AM by Sedit »
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jon

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2009, 01:06:28 AM »
*Well, one might try a much slower addition rate?  One might try a higher boiling solvent.  Ethanol is cheap and boils ~20C higher.  Likely both will be tried.*
huh????
no way lower boiling sovents buffer heat you have to stack two condensors to run that right and pipe some cold ass shit through each or like you said or your house will smell like some stanky ass pussy at least your friends will think your getting some.
actually at 80 c a dimer forms a pinacol want to keep it cool but hot enough to run hence methanol and two condensors.
i'd use alhin condensors not west condensors more surface area = better condensation.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 01:11:37 AM by jon »

vajrakana

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2009, 02:06:24 AM »
Running a lead out through cold water works to keep down odors. Plus you're trapping the MeAm in water so you can purify and reuse it later.

jon

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Re: A Tale of Two Amalgamations (<100mg Hg++ and no heat required)
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2009, 06:47:27 AM »
kind of like that odor, gets me to reminising ;D

NeilPatrickHarris

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Re: Addendum
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2009, 10:37:36 PM »
Addendum

This reaction was done again with 36 grams of Al, 30 grams of nitromethane and no heat.  Instead of washing 4 times with DH2O and then once with brine it was washed twice with brine (saturated NaCl) and product was 34.2 grams of a fluffy white powder that, from years and years gassing products, I can assure you was at least just a little more pure than the others.  Anyone who uses anhydrous HCl to form the organic salt knows that a purer amine base produces a fluffier powder and is a little less "dense", although I'm not 1000% sure that term applies here but y'all know what I mean.

that's interesting that you gained a couple grams by changing the washes.  i can't see how a couple dh2o washes would lose that much toluene and/or amine freebase.
what are everyone's thoughts on Dr Gonzo's workup using a sodium bicarbonate wash?