Author Topic: Backup Problems  (Read 91 times)

Vesp

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Backup Problems
« on: March 03, 2010, 10:18:06 PM »
Well, apparently my hosting company has decided to change servers because this site has large usage of files being uploaded and downloaded, etc... Obviously an affect of all of the FTP accounts and perhaps uploads and downloads from the forum.

The server they've put me on is so the site will run faster with all of the file exchange, but I've lost the ability to make entire backups of the site. I'd do this every-now and then  so the files that were added wouldn't get lost.

I guess we need to find a solution to this so I can still make backups to the site... here are my ideas:

1. Different hosting? -- I would need to find cheap hosting that is even less limited then the one I am currently using. I doubt this is very possible.. unless I can get and hook up my own servers-- which might bring a whole other mess of problems.

2. Password protect all of the FTP accounts so only members can use them -- I hope that this would significantly reduce the file usage, but it may not -- also this would reduce the risks of any copyright infringements that might exist (but probably don't... at least to my knowledge) on this site. This would reduce the file usage, because outsiders could not view this site -- it would make all previously posted URLs worthless, unless peoples knew the password, which would get spread around and eventually lead to the same problem of to much file usage.

3. Just not worry about it and hope it doesn't have any problems or get taken down at any point in the future.


Any other ideas? Let me know what you think should be done...

PS. I can still make backups of the forum... but it loses the uploaded content. i.e images, files, etc so a backup of the entire site is very important.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 10:24:07 PM by Vesp »
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Vesp

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2010, 10:22:55 PM »
PS. Does anyone know how to determine what size of server one needs for a site such as this one?
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Naf1

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 10:25:31 PM »
Is it possible to keep the text/html content where it is, and put the actually files that are uploaded/downloaded (pdf's etc) somewhere else? Like hosted on a different server or even multiple servers, possibly even your own server if that was possible ???

Vesp

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 10:29:58 PM »
I don't think so when it comes to the file uploads onto the forum -- however, I will check this out. It would be possible with the FTP files, however, I believe the URL would have to change... unless there is a way to host one website on two or more different servers using the same URL. I think that should be possible, but I don't know how to do it exactly. I'll look more into this when I have more energy. I have a flu and it has beaten me to another reality.
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shroomedalice

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 11:25:29 PM »
I would go with the sciencemadness route.

private ftp that only those who actually ask for it get access the rest is stored in a fileserver some were.

some times the files get deleted but it can always be reuploaded from the ftp.

this will cut your traffic down a lot.

Wizard X

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 11:28:15 PM »
Is it possible to keep the text/html content where it is, and put the actually files that are uploaded/downloaded (pdf's etc) somewhere else? Like hosted on a different server or even multiple servers, possibly even your own server if that was possible ???

I don't think so when it comes to the file uploads onto the forum -- however, I will check this out. It would be possible with the FTP files, however, I believe the URL would have to change... unless there is a way to host one website on two or more different servers using the same URL. I think that should be possible, but I don't know how to do it exactly. I'll look more into this when I have more energy. I have a flu and it has beaten me to another reality.

YES, it can be done. I've installed download protection to my FTP account, so web-bots and leeching software don't over-whelm the server. Will send you both a more detailed PM on how?

Example: http://127.0.0.1/WizardX/download.php?f=calea.pdf
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Naf1

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 11:54:56 PM »
That CALEA architecture is quite comprehensive, you pretty much cannot communicate on any level without being monitored. Except mobile phones with sim cards not in your name, pre paid cards etc, also you would imagine JAP anon and Tor would piss them off to no end as they would just see encrypted data flowing back and forth.

Fileserver is the name of what I was thinking of, thanks for the info!

timecube

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2010, 12:42:43 AM »
Quote
It would be possible with the FTP files, however, I believe the URL would have to change... unless there is a way to host one website on two or more different servers using the same URL. I think that should be possible, but I don't know how to do it exactly. I'll look more into this when I have more energy. I have a flu and it has beaten me to another reality.

You could add a subdomain and route it to the new server so the URL wouldn't be too different.  lib.thevespiary.org or similar.

Why can't you backup data from the new server?  Can you request a shell account or cron jobs so you can just zip everything up and grab it via ftp?

(actually, you can do it via php, but you'd be using system commands assuming they're not disabled and it's a little more messy)

Vesp

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2010, 01:10:32 AM »
I asked them about that - they said using cron would need me to alert them first, as downloading that much would cause some problems with the server or something like that, since this is a shared server... They didn't really like the idea all that much. I'll ask them more about this later.

They sent me this:

Quote
Looks like we can accommodate your request to have backups done by our systems
staff at $7.50/mo per 10G.


Considering this site is rather large (32.754GB... to be exact) that would cost me ~415 dollars including the costs for this site at the moment. I can't afford that... So that isn't a very good option.

When it comes to running my own server(s) -- it seems like everything might work out well, if it weren't for the cost that comcast wants me to pay for a business plan or something (I'm actually having a hard time finding a definitive price of running a server via comcast -- any help?)


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Naphyrone

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2010, 01:55:24 AM »
Well, you could try wget to archive the site, then tar.bz2 it to bring it to a small size. :)

nk40ouvm

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2010, 02:02:28 AM »
Do you have shell (ssh) access? Many cheap shared hosts offer it, though often only if you ask for it to be enabled on your account.

Once you have shell access you can use the "rsync" program (or one of its Windows translations, if you are running Windows) to back up all files stored on the server to your home computer. You can set a bandwidth limit on rsync so it doesn't hammer your host. The other nice thing is that rsync skips files that are the same on your local computer and the remote server, so after it's run once future runs will be much faster. Only new or changed files will download in further runs.

If your host doesn't permit shell access, I suggest finding one that does for storing files. I would also get a dedicated IP address for your file-host account so you can set up a subdomain like documents.vespiary.org to point at it. It saves bandwidth on your main site and if some cranky copyright holder shuts down the file-host site it won't simultaneously disable the forum. If you're allowed to set up custom Apache rules on the main site (the one with the forum) you can even modify URLs on the fly so that people who try to access documents by their old URLs will be transparently redirected to the corresponding entry on the documents.vespiary.org site. Or if you can't get/don't want to set up a subdomain on a dedicated IP address you should still be able to use an Apache rule to redirect the old destination URL to the new one. Of course this is dependent on your budget and available time: 2 hosts are more expensive than one, and you'll need to remember to attend to both.

timecube

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2010, 02:47:54 AM »
The thing with that is he'd probably have to get it approved first like the cron backups because of the bandwidth usage.

Vesp

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2010, 02:53:39 AM »
Well, if I set a limit like he says is possible, and it would only download new material vs all of it every-time, that would be significantly less everything.
problem is... SSH isn't offered I don't think... I need to look into it.
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NeilPatrickHarris

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2010, 03:41:37 AM »
i can't believe the site is really 33gb, that's pretty big, but then i've never moderated a forum before either.  i just couldn't imagine it being that large, even with the ftp directories.  wow.

if you were to run the site yourself that would be the cheapest route i'd imagine, as long as you can supply proper bandwidth.  just don't use IIS, doing a LAMP setup is always what i've heard recommended but i don't know linux well enough to comment further as i'm more of a lan/wan guy.  why does your ISP want to charge you with a business plan instead of residential?  why would they have to know if you're running a web server or not?  i don't have comcast so i'm not familiar with how they do business, that's why i ask.  keep in mind if you want people to get decent download speeds then your upload speeds are going to have to be pretty good.  broadband and dsl are notorious for crap upload speeds but i've eaten my own words with saying that before, ya never know really... because this depends just as much on their topology and where you fit into it as it does the plan you purchase from them.  you can't control where you physically fit into their topology and basically how well that bandwidth you purchase is going to be utilized for your needs until you just try speed tests at different days/times to see if anyone else is going to be grabbing all your bandwidth before it gets to you (keeping in mind that comcast/broadband is shared).  or you could go with dsl and not worry about shared bandwidth, there is comparably fast dsl that can compete head-on with broadband if you're close enough to fiber, but then you might be unlucky and be routed through an over-subscribed router as your next hop.  these are things you can't control but need to keep in the back of your head as they all play a part in the overall performance and latency of the website.  your current host probably has metro ethernet or a T-carrier circuit of some sort to deliver stable, steady, reliable download/upload speeds with bandwidth throttling.  if you have any type of UTM box in front of your server then perhaps you can pull off some traffic shaping / throttling as well to keep some greedy asshole from saturating your bandwidth.  these are all things your current provider has in place and you'll have to take into consideration.  you want functionality but performance as well.  look at what happened to WD with their DoS attack that took them down for quite some time, things of that nature that you don't have to deal with now but might (hopefully not!) at some point in time if you administrate it yourself.

i'd have to agree with the statements above, why not password protect the FTP like the forum?  that would make sure that all the traffic traversing the entire website is legit traffic from members but you'd lose google being able to turn up results for those individual ftp pages.  then you wouldn't need authentication protected access to rhodium because they'd already have to authenticate to even get to the ftp index page anyway.  i dunno, just some ideas.  i say put the whole website behind authentication, ftp section, forum, and all.  stop the random googlers from hitting the ftp so only legit members do.  but then you're reducing your exposure to google, which may be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 03:55:26 AM by NeilPatrickHarris »

lugh

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2010, 03:48:18 AM »
It's possible to run an encrypted website using an Apache server on a Comcast residential account without them knowing anything about it  ;D WD can help if it's desired but it may take awhile  8)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 03:59:39 AM by lugh »
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Vesp

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2010, 03:54:43 AM »
NPH, thanks for your input. 33GB seems pretty large to me as well, but thats what it says :P

How could WD help?
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lugh

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2010, 04:02:07 AM »
It's possible to run an encrypted website using an Apache server on a Comcast residential account without them knowing anything about it  ;D  WD can set up a subdomain under our account   8)
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Enkidu

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2010, 04:06:39 AM »
NPH, thanks for your input. 33GB seems pretty large to me as well, but thats what it says :P

You might be able archive a stripped down version like they used to do at RS. Heisenberg probably knows more.

timecube

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2010, 06:10:58 AM »
Quote
why does your ISP want to charge you with a business plan instead of residential?

Quote
keep in mind if you want people to get decent download speeds then your upload speeds are going to have to be pretty good.

Second part is the answer to the first.  Upspeed is capped on residential lines pretty severely.

Wizard X

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Re: Backup Problems
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 11:16:55 AM »
Well, if I set a limit like he says is possible, and it would only download new material vs all of it every-time, that would be significantly less everything. problem is... SSH isn't offered I don't think... I need to look into it.

Either silver or gold accounts http://www.canaca.com/virtual.html would do nicely for you. Store files on Canaca with download links back here using a PHP script. Send you PM soon? Alternatively, you could move the entire forum to Canaca Silver or Gold?

Forgot to add this...

Online Synchronization 1.0 http://www.sourcecodeonline.com/details/online_synchronization.html

* Database to database synchronization.
* Database to file synchronization through ftp(file transfer protocol).
* File to file synchronization.
* Custom synchronization.

1. Database to database synchronization: this synchronization provides the user to update the database from one server to another. In this online data synchronization one database format is converted into another database format through XML-RPC and then on other server it is again formatted accordingly. Mobile devices also doing same procedure when you connect to your computer or laptop. Online data synchronization procedure is completed through XML-RPC.
2. Database and file synchronization through ftp (file transfer protocol): in this online synchronization process database and files on one server can be synchronized together on another server through XML-RPC. Convert your Database into XML format and again convert XML format into your Database format. The synchronization is between the two servers. The server from which the database and files are transferred and the server on which these files are transferred.
3. File to file synchronization through ftp (file transfer protocol): in this online synchronization process only files on one server can be synchronized with the files on another server through XML-RPC and updated.
4. Custom synchronization: in this type of online synchronization you can choose the way you want to synchronize the files or database on other server through XML-RPC and updated. In this online synchronization your requirements are taken and then it is implemented accordingly.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 11:40:01 AM by Wizard X »
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