Author Topic: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips  (Read 465 times)

jon

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`20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« on: May 16, 2010, 09:22:04 PM »
as much as i hate hospitals maybe 20 mg buccally they said i had a purple tone and was'nt breathing i woke up and they were shoving this breathing tube down my throat for three days i did'nt know where i was what city what day it was just fucked.

i thought 38.75/gram was a bargain now i know why those jwh's are cheap cheap dumasses like me you dont even have to be a dumbass you could have a mg scale and a awaft of air next thing you know you turning blue and pushing up daisies i think it was a grand mal seizure sell it quick they gonna ban it soon.

hey the beauty of death experiences are there is no expirience and others will  tell you this too so don't worry about the forkpitch up your ass so uch as the immediate consequences
usually unforseen and unintend so don't even worry shit's gonna plop the fan anyway

timecube

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2010, 01:35:53 AM »
Tried JWH-018 and I believe I accidentally took way too much.  Instead of a euphoriant it acted as a full on disassociative.  Nothing seemed real and I couldn't figure out how exactly I had gotten where I was at any point in time.  Panicked, ended up at the hospital, pushed fluids and just let me detox, released a few hours later.  Drug screen was clear so it likely wasn't tainted.  Be extremely careful with this shit, if you take too much it's absolutely horrifying.

Naf1

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2010, 05:06:40 AM »
That reminds one, of the 'Should I Smoke' doco. The lady gets an IV injection of straight THC and looks like she is seriously shitting herself, when they give her an IV of THC and CBD that would be seen in naturally occurring weed......Well, see the results for yourself;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2cAFRAX3Gs[/youtube]

Completely different effects (like Haze vs Kush), maybe you need some CBD to take with it?

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2010, 02:38:34 AM »
The pure THC one looks like she just had a paranoid freakout from getting way too high.  I think pretty much anyone who has smoked too much (or made brownies too strong) has experienced that at least once before.  And yes too much JWH will do that same thing, except the dosage is like a single grain of sugar. 

Sedit

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2010, 04:42:34 PM »
I watched that yesterday as well Naf good show with what appeared to be little bias and alot of experimenting ;D. That effect she got from pure THC is what I get from weed anymore I could see it in her face. I just chose to avoid it all for the most part now.
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Naf1

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2010, 12:07:59 AM »
Yes, and it shows what I meant above;

Quote
maybe you need some CBD to take with it?

As when you see those tests as a smoker, it is very familiar. The classic sativa plants (Haze, Thai ect) are high in THC and have no CBD (unless it is a very old sample). And produce results similar to the pure THC test, paranoia, anxiety, no body stone at all more of a stimulated high, higher doses start getting a little psychedelic. A nickname for the strong Haze/NL5 cutting that was the strongly Haze high phenotype, was and still is referred to as 'speed weed'. I do such things on that weed as walk into a room and forget what I was going in there for, it is very cerebral so you start thinking about obscure and somewhat irrelevant things like 'I wonder what the temperature on the moon is?'. But the THC test shows what can happen when you smoke too much, paranoia, deathly feeling, anxiety (of impending doom), a depressed like state. And not only that sativas give me a headache.

Compared to say Hash that is high THC/high CBD, or Kush, you have to remember the THC% is just as high in Hash/ Kush and modern Indicas it just has CBD also. That is some certified couch weed, you dont find yourself walking into rooms because you are glued to the couch only getting up for real necessities (toilet/munchies). You get chinese eyes, and start finding stupid things like Harold and Kumar funny. It is actually anxiolytic, and has analgesic qualities. Which is in total opposition to the effects of a strong Sativa that lacks any CBD, this was not realized fully until the biosynthesis of THC fully elucidated. As it was believed that THC was biosynthesized from its isomer cannabidiolic acid (CBDA) via an enzyme catalyzed cyclization, but has actually been proven now that THC is biosynthesized via cannabigerolic acid. The CBD naturally present in Indicas comes from the same prenyltransferase enzyme the sativa has but the enzyme can accept two different substrates geranyl-pyrophosphate (GPP), but also neryl-pyrophosphate (NPP);

From there plants that have the CBDA synthase enzyme catalyze the formation of CBDA from cannabinerolic acid but it is much more efficient at converting CBGA (cannabigerolic acid) to (CBDA cannabidiolic acid). And the THCA synthase enzyme regulates the formation of THCA (delta-1-tetrahydrocannabinolic acid) from CBGA. The amounts of THC and CBD are regulated directly by the expression of the genes THCA synthase and CBDA synthase. The sativas seem to only produce that gene when they are immature, and it slowly stops being produced as they mature. CBD can form as THC breaks down, and as such Sativas that lack CBD completely can end up with some in older samples that have not been stored well.
BIOCHEMICAL ANALYSIS OF A NOVEL ENZYME THAT CATALYZES THE OXIDOCYCLIZATION OF CANNABIGEROLIC ACID TO CANNABIDIOLIC ACID*
http://www.jbc.org/content/271/29/17411.full

When you see the difference in for example a bowl of 20% THC Haze, producing those anxious speed weed highs. Then a bowl of 20% THC 4% CBD Kush producing the much more pleasurable high nearly perfectly analogous to the IV tests. It would seem the CBD plays a massive part in the regulation of uptake/hydrolysis of the THC, and being that Timcube stated;

Quote
Instead of a euphoriant it acted as a full on disassociative.  Nothing seemed real and I couldn't figure out how exactly I had gotten where I was at any point in time.  Panicked, ended up at the hospital, pushed fluids and just let me detox, released a few hours later.  Drug screen was clear so it likely wasn't tainted.  Be extremely careful with this shit, if you take too much it's absolutely horrifying.

It reminds me of the old days with no tolerance to cannabinoids and too much pure Sativa maybe not that strong but very familiar, you may well be a seasoned smoker and not have a tolerance to JWH, HU-210 and WIN type compounds? But seeing the similarities between it and pure THC, it would be very unusual if adding around 4% CBD did not also have those positive regulatory effects as seen with THC. The only question being those compounds have a greater affinity for the receptors in question, they may have the ability to displace CBD? But I am pretty sure it make the synthetic cannabinoids much more pleasurable.....

Naf1

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2010, 02:21:37 AM »
I postulated that CBD regulated the uptake/hydrolysis of THC and JWC ect, it turns out it does not in fact it has anxiolytic and anti-psychotic properties! Which would make it superb to co-administer with the synthetic cannabinoids!
 
Cannabidiol, a Cannabis sativa constituent, as an antipsychotic drug
Brazilian Journal of Medical and Biological Research (2006) 39: 421-429

A high dose of delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol, the main Cannabis sativa (cannabis) component, induces anxiety and psychotic-like symptoms in healthy volunteers. These effects of delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol are significantly reduced by cannabidiol (CBD), a cannabis constituent which is devoid of the typical effects of the plant. This observation led us to suspect that CBD could have anxiolytic and/or antipsychotic actions. Studies in animal models and in healthy volunteers clearly suggest an anxiolytic-like effect of CBD. The antipsychotic-like properties of CBD have been investigated in animal models using behavioral and neurochemical techniques which suggested that CBD has a pharmacological profile similar to that of atypical antipsychotic drugs. The results of two studies on healthy volunteers using perception of binocular depth inversion and ketamine-induced psychotic symptoms supported the proposal of the antipsychotic-like properties of CBD. In addition, open case reports of schizophrenic patients treated with CBD and a preliminary report of a controlled clinical trial comparing CBD with an atypical antipsychotic drug have confirmed
that this cannabinoid can be a safe and well-tolerated alternative treatment for schizophrenia. Future studies of CBD in other psychotic conditions such as bipolar disorder and comparative studies of its antipsychotic effects with those produced by clozapine in schizophrenic patients are clearly indicated.

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/bjmbr/v39n4/6164.pdf
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 02:29:27 AM by Naf1 »

jon

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 02:15:29 AM »
jwh-018 has'nt been studied all they know about it is they give it to rats some act lethargic and some die.
me it stopped me from breathing lost consciosness, etc.
it's not something you just eyeball.

Sedit

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2010, 01:25:16 PM »
I must know for sake of argument, 20mg is an extremely small amount that would be very hard for almost anyone here to accurately measure out. How are you sure your dosage was 20mg and not 25 or 30 or 200mg for that matter? Are you positive it was 20mg and what steps where taken to ensure this dose was correct?
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timecube

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2010, 05:02:30 PM »
I must know for sake of argument, 20mg is an extremely small amount that would be very hard for almost anyone here to accurately measure out. How are you sure your dosage was 20mg and not 25 or 30 or 200mg for that matter? Are you positive it was 20mg and what steps where taken to ensure this dose was correct?

You can dissolve an easier to measure quantity like a gram in acetone or other solvent to obtain a known concentration, then measure it out volumetrically.

Sedit

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2010, 05:22:20 PM »
I must know for sake of argument, 20mg is an extremely small amount that would be very hard for almost anyone here to accurately measure out. How are you sure your dosage was 20mg and not 25 or 30 or 200mg for that matter? Are you positive it was 20mg and what steps where taken to ensure this dose was correct?

You can dissolve an easier to measure quantity like a gram in acetone or other solvent to obtain a known concentration, then measure it out volumetrically.

I know this much, you can also grind with a dyed cutting agent to ensure dispersion such as synapse from BL speaks of but that does not answer the question of how jon ensured he was only taking 20mg and not 30 or so..
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

Naf1

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2010, 12:14:32 AM »
"The usual dosage for individual consumption (orally) varies greatly per individual but is typically between 3 and 20 milligrams"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JWH-018

20 milligrams being the ceiling you would not want to exceed (even reach) until experienced. And until some more toxicity info had come to hand, as weed is tried and true. The synthetics and their metabolism products are not yet, if I were to measure out 3mg I would definitely smoke it. This would most definitely produce carcinogenic pyrolysis products, but would also destroy a good part of the JWH-018. 60% of THC is destroyed upon smoking. So you would be making sure you were taking less than you thought rather than the other way around! Also the synthetics seem to act somewhat analogously to THC when taken orally (more is needed, and a longer heavier trip), compared to the reduced duration of a smoked high. If 1mg in a bowl, did not get me stoned I would increase to 2mg.

Quote
You can dissolve an easier to measure quantity like a gram in acetone or other solvent to obtain a known concentration, then measure it out volumetrically.

That seems like the most sensible way to go without precise lab scales, like ye olde 1960's DMT sprayed onto parsley and let dry. 1 gram would be dissolved into 1 liter of solvent. Then 1 or 2 ml taken and dropped onto a sample of parsley or tea (or something). 1 milliliter = 1 milligram.

Those pipettes can be bought everywhere (real cheap) they have 1,2 and 3 milliliter graduations. You can also get thinner more precise ones that only have the one '1 milliliter' graduation.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 12:25:00 AM by Naf1 »

Retina

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2010, 03:04:13 AM »
JWH-018 will dissolve into 80% EtOH /water in the concentration of 2mg/ml with some gentle heating and stirring for those who are so inclined.  Oral dose of 1-2ml will be enough for most purposes with duration > 8hr and onset in about 1hr. 

Naf1

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2010, 05:09:34 AM »
Or using the metered dose to drip onto strawberry shisha, then let dry and smoke (mmmm);

Thereby reducing the duration, down from 8 hrs. Also three 1 milligram  solvent drops onto a sugar cube then let it dry, or capsules or make single dose (3mg) lollipops or candy?

I cannot see jon taking a perfect 20mg either, this is same guy that was eating grams of E like they were going out of fashion(no offense buddy, but I have encountered more careful psychonaughts in the past!). I would have to imagine his 20mg in this case would have been more like 60-100mg, the 1 hour onset would encourage re-dosing also.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 05:13:57 AM by Naf1 »

timecube

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2010, 07:14:56 PM »
1 gram would be dissolved into 1 liter of solvent. Then 1 or 2 ml taken and dropped onto a sample of parsley or tea (or something). 1 milliliter = 1 milligram.

That's way too much solvent if your going to try to drip it onto something.  1 mL doesn't sound like much but is a massive quantity when you're trying to drip it onto something small.  If you're going to drip it on something I'd use something more like 50mL acetone per gram, so you get 20mg/mL then use an insulin syringe or oral syringe that measures 1/10 mLs, and you get 2mg per 1/10 mL.  Most people I've talked to seem to find 10-15mg the most enjoyable though.

When you find a dosage you like, just dissolve the proper amount in enough acetone to cover the proper amount of flavored tobacco/herbs/whatever.  Eg. if you want 10mg doses, and you want a dose to be .5g of herbs, then you would dissolve 1g of active compound in enough acetone to cover 50g of herbs, stir well and evaporate the solvent to give a fairly evenly distributed 20mg JWH/g of herb (10mg/.5g)  Then just weigh out .5g doses.  You don't have to adjust for the added weight of the JWH because the acetone pulls some of the water out of the herbs and it tends to even out.  If you wanted to be really accurate, you could weigh the final product and divide by 100 to get the right weight per dose, but it's going to be so close it's kind of pointless.

When I OD'ed it was because I was using it predistributed on a popular "incense," but there is no clear indication as to how much should be taken.  Always know your dosage.  Lesson learned.

Some people don't seem to like it as much as the "real thing" but some like it better (esp. on tobacco because it's designed to be smoked and isn't quite so harsh)

jon

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2010, 09:54:43 PM »
when i tried i said to myself "ok i'm going to be careful" so i pour out a few chunks and rekon ahh that's too much so i put a chunk or two back and ate the rest with the understanding i did my due dilignece in order to not od.
unfortunately i would up turning a shade of blue and not breathing quite relaxing until you wake up in the icu with tubes stuck all in your body.
rude awakening

Sedit

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2010, 12:17:26 AM »
Chunks? Put some back?

Jon do you understand how small 20mg is? There are no chunks most of the time just a trace amount of powder since 2mg is a small amount. It sounds to me like you may have taken more along the lines of 200mg and not 20 dude. That would be a hospital stay for even the most hearty of souls.
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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2010, 06:22:10 AM »
This probably isn't at all a good way of visualizing it, but say an aspirin with 325mg of ASA has the mass of 400 due to binders, etc -- you would expect to see something near the volume of 5% that size -- so if it were to be cut evenly in twentieths, and one twentieth taken. Very small amount.
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timecube

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2010, 11:20:08 AM »
Bioassay:


JWH-018, commercial distribution on herbs, very large doses (dosages unknown):

Subject A
I had been consuming an unknown quantity of the substance when it suddenly kicked in almost at once.  There was about a minute of giddiness, followed by a cold feeling across my face and extreme seriousness, realizing I had taken entirely too much and had very limited control.  Subject B is laughing hysterically.  I sit down for a minute, but can no longer take the laughing at such a serious time.  I wander off of the porch around to the front yard and driveway.  This was where the memory lapse occurred.  I looked around and realized I was in front of B's house but wasn't sure why, and wasn't sure if I was dreaming or what I was seeing was real.  I considered that it was the night before and I was dreaming about going over to consume the substance, possibly even a warning to me not to do it.  At some point, I made the observation that what I could see had too much detail to be a dream and that I could trust what I see, but that was much less comforting than learning I was in a dream I could wake up from would have been.  I entered a more terrifying state where I knew that what was around me must be real, but it didn't feel real, and I began to worry about how long the disconnect would last.

I had tried unsuccessfully to get Subject B to answer his door and assumed he wasn't there or wasn't going to let me in for some reason.  I walked down the road a bit to try to figure out if there was a way to get home (I was several miles away, so no.)  I eventually realized I had taken the substance (though I still had trouble figuring out if I really did or just dreamed it all and was still stuck in the dream.)  I tried throwing up and breathing deeper to try to get rid of it more quickly.  I knew I could not drive, but wanted to sleep.. so I put my keys in a different pocket than usual before getting into my car to try to sleep (so I wouldn't get them out and try to drive during any sort of future delusion.)  As may be evident from some of the reasoning and planning, I never became what I would consider intoxicated.  I had full mental control in the present, I just had trouble remembering if the way I thought I had gotten there was real and the disconnect from what I knew should be real and what felt real deeply concerned me.

While in my car I began to become terrified I would be that way for the rest of my life.  This clearly was an unreasonable stress induced conclusion, but it seemed reasonable at the time, especially since I had some concerns that these weren't the effects expected from the drug and that I may have taken something else (PCP, specifically.)  I got out and made a desperate call home to see if anyone was there to get me.  When that failed, I called emergency services and asked for help, thinking they may have something they could give me to stop the effects.  Shortly after this, I began to piece together how I had gotten there and went back around B's house to enter through the back door.  Found Subject B still laughing.  We entered the house and sat down in the living room, he was still laughing.  I asked if the experience was pleasant for him.  "No, it's horrible.  It's like PCP or something."  He explained that he didn't find it funny at all, but once he started laughing it felt like a reflex and he had trouble stopping.

I tried to get some sleep on the couch to no avail.  I told B I had called an ambulance, and he asked if I could just tell them I didn't need it anymore and just pay their bill instead of paying that and a hospital bill and having to go to the hospital.  I thought it was a good idea too.  When they arrived, I looked out the window and could see them pull up, but then I apparently said "I need to go to the hospital," walked downstairs, put my shoes on and went with them.

I was stilling having occasional memory lapses.  I could see the inside of the ambulance and everyone there but it didn't seem real, and I even started reasoning that it was too wide to be real, etc. because I couldn't trust what intuitively felt real anymore, I had to deduce it through reason.  I was able to explain to the EMS team what I had taken, and correct them when they misheard.  They were discussing possible counteractions, and when one suggested Narcan I was able to tell her that it wasn't an opiate (the last thing I needed was to be sick and scared.)  During the trip, I asked her where we were.  "We're on Main Street right now."  This wasn't at all the answer I wanted.. I meant where are we in relationship to reality.. am I really in an ambulance, am I not dreaming right now, did I actually do all of the things I somewhat remembered?  But her answer seemed like a realistic answer to that question so that I accepted I was really there (although I still had to get there via reason.)

They took me to the hospital, put me in a room, got my shirt off in exchange for a gown (my shirt was soaking wet, I had been walking around in the pouring rain without thinking about it.)  I lay in bed for quite some time, still not quite sure.  Several people came in and out, to take my temperature, ask me questions.  It seems I was the first reported case of usage in the area and a few of them seemed excited about it.  I was just happy a few of them actually understood what I had taken.  They placed me on EKG and started an IV (which was actually inserted in ambulance but no liquid was attached until in the room.)  Blood was also taken.  I gradually came back to fully feeling that what was around me was real.  During this time, I had visits from the doctor and nurses to ask questions, listen to my lungs, etc.  While I was still cloudy, some girl came in with one of the nurses.  Not particularly attractive, but about my age and friendly, gave me an empathy smile and I smiled back.  It really made me feel a lot better about everything for some reason.  A woman came in to take a chest x-ray and immediately after I thought "Shit, there's another $300."

I had been requesting a lot of water during this time; I was extremely thirsty.  I was eventually competent enough to get up to pee, but had to call for help to come close the curtains and lower the bed side rails because I was still connected to the EKG.  After this, I could start to handle myself.  Kept refilling my own water, and urinating often.  It's possible my body was encouraging this to help get rid of the substance.  I eventually was back to baseline after about 4 hours and asked to be discharged.  Subject B was normal again by now and able to pick me up.  The girl who had smiled at me was working at the ER reception where I needed to give billing information, and I believe she said she might be able to help with the cost somehow where I didn't want it to go through my insurance.  I don't know if she was able to help any with it, but she was really nice to me and I appreciated her trying.

When I made it back to B's house, I waited about 20 more minutes and was normal enough to drive home safely.  The whole experience still seemed like it had been some kind of crazy dream even though I was back to present reality.

Some information learned from the hospital trip:  Blood pressure was somewhat elevated, although mine runs a bit high anyway.  Poison control was contacted by medical staff but no treatment other than saline was given, which would indicate that they had no further specific instructions for treatment.  The drug screen ran on my blood came back clean, so what I took was likely the expected compound or similar synthetic derivatives.


Subject B

A full write up from Subject B is not available, but I will try to summarize the experience as he described it.  B consumed more of the product than I did, but also weighs significantly more than I do.  After I left his porch, he sat down and felt that he could not get back up again.  He began to have vivid visual and audial hallucinations and felt as though he were in some kind of hell.  We had both experimented with dextromethorphan before and he was able to relate the experience to a much stronger version of it which is also how I would describe my experience.  When I made it back to the back door, he met me and we sat in the living room.  This is when he described how it had felt for him.

He had been glued to the outside chair for some time and eventually made it inside to be glued to the living room couch.  He had heard me ring the doorbell but didn't know what it was, as it was distorted and merging with the other hallucinations. The effects wore off for him after approximately the same length of time as for me.



JWH-018, commercial distribution on herbs, smaller unknown doses:

Subject B experimented with smaller doses in the days following the first experiment.  He described the experiences as very pleasant and similar to that of marijuana.



JWH-018, purchased as pure powder, dissolved in solvent and distributed evenly on pipe tobacco, 10mg:

This seemed like a decent middle ground based on reported dosages.  There was concern that if we started at 5mg we may not feel it and be tempted to move to 10mg and have it accumulate to stronger effect than desired.  Both Subjects A and B intended to take this dose, but Subject B suggested one of them should be sober in case it is too strong again.

Subject B displayed hilarity and reported enjoying the experience, although he thought a proper dose was likely 1.5x to 2x that amount.



JWH-018, purchased as pure powder, dissolved in solvent and distributed evenly on pipe tobacco, 15mg:

The next day, Subject B consumed 15mg, again displayed hilarity, and reported that this was an ideal amount for him and that the experience was enjoyable.



JWH-018, purchased as pure powder, dissolved in solvent and distributed evenly on pipe tobacco, 10-15mg:

Subject C, a regular user of marijuana as well as IV cocaine and opiates consumed 10mg of the substance and reported that it was enough to get him high.  He proceeded to consume another 5mg later that night.  Strangely, he had consumed approximately the same amount of the commercial herb on a previous day that Subject A had when he overdosed and felt hardly any effects.  It would seem that the commercial product may not be very evenly distributed.

The next day, Subject C wanted more, reporting that he liked the experience better than that of marijuana.  Subject B responded that he preferred marijuana much better.



JWH-018, purchased as pure powder, dissolved in solvent and distributed evenly on pipe tobacco, 10mg:

This morning, Subject A was feeling a bit down and decided to try the substance for the first time since his overdose the previous week.  The dose felt reasonable but the effects were not pleasant.  There was pressure in the chest and blurred vision, all of which felt like a mild version of the first experience.  An existing pain in the lower back intensified, and the whole body felt under great pressure.  After about 15 minutes of this, A decided he did not like this and took 15mg hydrocodone.  After 20-30 minutes, the effects of the title substance began to be replaced by the familiar warm embrace of the opiate.  The interaction wasn't unpleasant, like a more alert opiate high, but Subject A sees no reason to continue his experimentation with this compound.  After some time, the opiate effects completely replaced the cannibinoid effects and were found to be much more enjoyable.


jon

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Re: `20mg jwh-018 and hospital trips
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2010, 12:48:57 PM »
i was reading up in this thread here which is fascinating about the thc and the cbd's and i was wondering would'nt mixing the jwh drugs with powdered xanax work pretty good?
that would be commercially realistic, xanax is cheap.