Rev Drone's Famous Designer Fentanyls

Guest · Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:57 pm

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Synthesis of the Fentanyl analog beta-hydroxy-alpha-methylfentanyl
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First a quick summary:
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Rev drone:

Alright, I'm only gonna say this once...

N-methyl-4-piperidone + methyl iodide ===>
N,N-dimethyl-4-piperidone iodide + phenylpropanolamine, base ===>
beta-hydroxy-alpha-methyl-phenylethyl-4-piperidone + aniline, NaBH4 ===>
4-anilo-1-(beta-hydroxy-alpha-methyl-phenethyl)-piperidone + (CH3CH2CO)2O ===>
beta-hydroxy-alpha-methylfentanyl

Next, you'll want ref's, I bet. Ho-hum. Invariably, Step 2 (the replacement
of the quaternary amine with phenylpropanolamine) is the one you're wondering
about, isn't it? I thought so.

Chem.Heterocycl.Compd.; 21; 12; 1985; 1355-1362;

You probobly want to know a little about reductive
amination of aniline with your piperidone, too.

Chem.Pharm.Bull.; 33; 5; 1985; 1826-1835;

Just to be thorough, here's the addition of the propionyl group:

J.Heterocycl.Chem.; 26; 1989; 677-686;

The reasons for doing this are numerous. N-methyl piperidone is unwatched,
available in big quantities, and very cheap.

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The Hive BB - Chemistry Discourse

Topic: a gift from drone to the DEA -- a little china white

Drone 342:
Get ready for some gut-pumpin' chemical fun!

As a gift from my workin' class worker bee
subconscious to you, the larger community, here's a
little genie that I've been struggling to keep in the
bottle now for a year. "Pop", goes the cork, and like
a little butterfly, this chemical nugget spreads its
wings for the rest of the word.

Drone's home-made fentanyl analog!

Yep, drone has doen what was thought impossible, and
will now divulge what is thought unmentionable,
because DRONE --342 is DRONE --342, and can do that!

Folks, have you ever had a hankering for a big, juicy
ounce or two of synthetic heroin, but just thought it
impossible to allocate the necessary chemicals? Well,
your friend drone has taken out the guesswork and
managed to develope a synthetic route to a chemical
1000 or so stronger than conventional smack.
Impossible, you say? NAY, my dear worker bees.

Here's the general overview of fentanyl synthesis.
4-piperidone is reacted with a trimethyliodo
(quaternary) salt of a phenethylamine (or any number
of aromatic ethylamines), to produce an
N-arylethylpiperidone (you can use the quaternary salt
of the piperidone with the primary substituted
arylethytlamine, if you like, too.) Anyways, this is
reacted with aniline, and reduced with NaBH4, and then
reacted with propionic anhydride to produce the
fentanyl freebase.

It turns out:

*adding an ethyl carbon bridge to the piperidine ring
will not reduce potency.

*adding an extra methyl to the phenethyl substituent
to make a phenylisopropyl makes for a strong,
long-lasting compound.

*adding a hydroxy to the alpha-carbon of the pehethyl
side chain -- as seen in ephedrine -- will also
increase potency.

*as I said in a previous post, propionic anhydride can
be made at home (this is the most closely watched
chemical on the DEA's list, but this watching was
rendered obsolete by YoursTruly not too long ago.)

The Fentanyl Suite, in d(l)-major; Movement 1

(the curtain rises, our anti-hero is found quietly
sauntering through the woods, foraging for
precursors.)

Taking this into account, Atropine is extracted from
nightshade. It is hydrolyzed to form tropine. Tropine
is oxidized to form tropinone. Tropinone is then
exhaustively methylated with iodomethane.

Second Movement

Dexatrim is bought in a fiendish quantity. The PPA is
extracted and isolated as its free base. This is
combined with tropinone, to form
N-(1-hydroxy-1-phenyl)isopropyl tropinone.

(intermezzeo)

Third Movement

Aniline is combined with the aforementioned
freshly-made tropinone, and reduced with NaBH4.

Fourth Movement
(Allegro)

Propionic anhydride is made from a propionate salt
like calcium propionate by adding bromine or even
chlorine. Alternatively, propionate esters are
hydrolyzed, the acid component isolated, and combined
with acetic anhydride and allowed to reflux, with the
product being fractionally distilled.

(crescendo)

The propionic anhydride is added to our soon-to-be
fentanyl analog compound, and allowed to react (I
think around 50 C). The product is flash
chromatographed, combined with citric acid (or any
acid of your choice), and allowed to dry.

The material is cut with hundreds of times its mass of
mannitol.

Viola! China white has just been made out of
Nightshade, diet tablets, aniline, and food
preservatives. It's all there in the literature. Ref's
available upon request.

Are we having fun yet?

-drone --342

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Rhodium (Administrator)

Could we have a little more pharmacological data on this compound?

I'd like to have the ref on reacting a quat with 4-piperidone, to give the
tertiary amine. If you have any refs on making 4-piperidone, that would be nice
too.

Tropinone is easily made from citric acid, methylamine and succinic dialdehyde
(made from pyrrole). You can also make cocaine from it :)

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drone 3422 - posted 05-19-98 08:50 PM

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The Robinson tropine synthesis isn't all its cracked up to be -- the main
detraction is that succinaldehyde. Have you ever looked at its synthesis? At
least the means that I found didn't look too appetizing; I'd extract tropines
and hydrolyze and oxidize them over that any day of the week.

I'll get you the ref's on this tommorow.

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Rhodium

Yes, I've looked into the synthesis. Even going the whole way to cocaine isn't
that hard in my opinion. But back to tropinone. I'd very much rather make it
myself, than poison myself with atropine alkaloids.

Succindialdehyde is made from pyrrole by refluxing with hydroxylamine and KOH.

Solomon

Hey drone, thanks alot for this great stuff.

Have you ever heard of PePAP (The meperidine anolog)?
It's (1-(2-Phenylethyl)-4-acetyloxpiperidine) I think.
Sounds kind of interesting to me.

drone 342 [Image] posted 05-20-98 09:43 AM
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Here's a ref or two.

For the addition elimination with the quat amine,
check out:
Chem. Het. Comp. 21:2, (1985) 1355-1362

There's another one somewhere around in my piles of
shit, butI can't find it. This one is good though, and
should help you out quiite nicely.

For piperidone synths:
JACS 53 1931 2693, 2696
Helv. Chim. Acta 3, 1920, 815
JOC 37 1972 1042-1045
JCS 1952, 1164, 1167
Yakugaku Zasshi 71 1951 1053, 1056
JOC 10, 1945, 277, 279
JCS 1949, 708, 711
JACS 70, 1948 1820,1822

for tropinone-based fentanyls' chemistry and/or
pharmacology:
JMC 22, 1167 (1979)
J. Het. Chem. 14, 599 (1977)
Org. Magn. Reson. 6, 441 (1974)

For carfentanyl:
DE PAT 2610228, 1976
US PAT 4179569, 1979
Arzneim Forsch 26, 1976 1521, 1523, 1528

There, that ought keep ya busy!

-drone --342

drone 342 [Image] posted 05-20-98 06:19 PM
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Rhodium,

Tropninonecan be hydrolyzed from atropine in
nightshade quite easily. A little acid-base
extraction, followed by vacuum distillation, will give
you an excellent product for xoidizing into tropinone.
Its cheap and plentiful. On top of that, its
uncontrollable and essentially unlimited.

However, if you do come across some really facile way
of making that succinaldehyde and feel like posting
it, I have some excellent ref's for some wacky
benztropine analogs that put coke itself to shame
(judging by the pharmacology reports and biological
assays, these little goodies will pump-n-suck your
dopamine receptors like you know how you want them
to.)

-drone --342

drone 342 [Image] posted 05-20-98 08:12 PM
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Here's some stuff from Beilstein on thebaine
isolation. I actually have more at home than this, but
I just couldn't get it all together this morning.
Anyways, here you go:

Isolation From Natural Product Isolierung aus Opium
Ref. 1 761186; Patent; Knoll A.G.; US 2712018; 1951;
Ref. 2 761187; Journal; Heumann; BNUNA5; Bull.Narc.;
9; 2; 1957; 34;
-------------------------

Isolation From Natural Product 2 of 13
Isolation From Natural Product Bldg. in Samen u.
Keimlingen von Papaver bracteatum
Ref. 1 3022808; Journal; Sarkany et al.; PLMEAA;
Planta Med.; 36; 1979; 289;
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Isolation From Natural Product 3 of 13 Isolation From
Natural Product Papaver albiflorum PACZ. subsp.
albiflorum
Ref. 1 5559025; Journal; Slavik, Jiri; Slavikova,
Leonora; Dolejs, Ladislav; CCCCAK;
Collect.Czech.Chem.Commun.; EN; 46; 10; 1981;
2587-2593;
-------------------------

Isolation From Natural Product 4 of 13
Isolation From Natural Product Papaver bracteatum
Ref. 1 3022810; Journal; Levy et al.; PLMEAA; Planta
Med.; 36; 1979; 362,364;
-------------------------

Isolation From Natural Product 5 of 13
Isolation From Natural Product Papaver bracteatum
LINDL.
Ref. 1 5557634; Journal; Slavik, Jiri; Slavikova,
Leonora; CCCCAK; Collect.Czech.Chem.Commun.; EN; 50;
5; 1985; 1216-1226;
-------------------------

Isolation From Natural Product 6 of 13
Isolation From Natural Product Papaver bracteatum Arya
II
Ref. 1 5910497; Journal; Meshulam, Haim; Lavie, David;
PYTCAS; Phytochemistry; EN; 19; 1980; 2633-2636;
-------------------------

Isolation From Natural Product 7 of 13
Isolation From Natural Product Papaver fugax
Ref. 1 3017192; Journal; Sariyar et al.; PYTCAS;
Phytochemistry; 12; 1973; 2431,2433;
-------------------------

Isolation From Natural Product 8 of 13
Isolation From Natural Product Papaver oreophilum
Ref. 1 3022809; Journal; Maturova et al.; PLMEAA;
Planta Med.; 14; 1966; 22,38;
-------------------------

Isolation From Natural Product 9 of 13
Isolation From Natural Product Papaver setigerum DC.
Ref. 1 6038149; Journal; Slavik, Jiri; Slavikova,
Leonora; CCCCAK; Collect.Czech.Chem.Commun.; EN; 61;
7; 1996; 1047-1052;
-------------------------

Isolation From Natural Product 10 of 13
Isolation From Natural Product Papaver somniferum
Ref. 1 64358; Journal; Parker,H.I. et al.; JACSAT;
J.Amer.Chem.Soc.; EN; 94; 1972; 1276-1282;
-------------------------

Isolation From Natural Product 11 of 13
Isolation From Natural Product Papaver somniferum
Ref. 1 163865; Journal; Barton,D.H.R. et al.; JCSOA9;
J.Chem.Soc.; EN; 1965; 2423-2438;
-------------------------

Isolation From Natural Product 12 of 13
Isolation From Natural Product Papaver somniferum
Ref. 1 5829983; Journal; Waddell, Thomas G.; Rapoport,
Henry; PYTCAS; Phytochemistry; EN; 24; 3; 1985;
469-472;
-------------------------

Isolation From Natural Product 13 of 13
Isolation From Natural Product Papaver somniferum
after extraction with aqueous sodium bisulphite,
removing morphine and codeine and extraction with
acetic acid
Ref. 1 5856249; Journal; Repasi, Janos; Hosztafi,
Sandor; Szabo, Zoltan; PLMEAA; Planta Med.; EN; 59; 5;
1993; 477-478;

drone 342 [Image] posted 05-20-98 08:33 PM
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Sorry about that; this last message belongs in the
current opium thread in the novel discussion area.

imagine my chagrin,

-drone --342

Rhodium [Image] posted 05-24-98 08:19 PM
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Succinaldehyde [JACS 68, 1608-1610 (1946)]

Various procedures, usually applicable for the
preparation of aldehydes from appropriate
intermediates, were tried unsuccessfully: e. g., the
distillation of mixed calcium succinate and calcium
formates, a Rosenmund type of reduction of succinyl
chloride, the partial hydrogenation of succinonitrile,
either catalytically or by Stephen's methods with
stannous chloride, to the diimine; all gave no trace
of the desired aldehyde. Bromo- and chloroacetal do
not undergo the Fittig condensation, but instead yield
ethyl vinyl ether. The Grignard condensation of
beta-halogenopropionaldehyde acetal with ethyl
orthoformate, expected to yield the tetraethyl acetal
of succinaldehyde, was not tried since neither
beta-chloro- nor beta-bromopropionaldehyde acetal
would react with magnesium. Hence, resort was made to
the synthesis of succinaldehyde from pyrrole, via the
dioxime, and a procedure was employed which does not
require the isolation of the dialdehyde.

Succinaldoxime
In a 2-liter, 3-necked flask, equipped with mechanical
stirrer and reflux condenser, were placed 1 liter of
ethanol, 67 g freshly distilled pyrrole, and 141g
hydroxylamine hydrochloride. The mixture was stirred
and heated to refluxing, as soon as solution was
complete 106g anhydrous sodium carbonate was added, in
small portions, as rapidly as possible; and the
solution was then refluxed for-twenty-four hours. The
hot alcoholic mixture was then filtered to remove
sodium chloride, and the filtrate was evaporated to
dryness under reduced pressure. The residue was taken
up in the minimum of boiling water, the solution
heated with decolorizing charcoal, filtered and the
product allowed to crystallize in the refrigerator.
Additional product could be obtained by concentrating
the mother liquors. The yield of dioxime varied from
40 to 44g, 35 to 38%, and the product melted at
171-172¡C.

Succinaldehyde
A twentieth mole, 5.8g, of succinaldoxime was placed
in a beaker of 250 ml. capacity and 54 ml. of 10%
sulfuric acid was added. The mixture was cooled to 0¡C
and to it was added, in small portions, 7.0g of sodium
nitrite, keeping the temperature at 0¡C. Evolution of
nitrogen dioxide fumes indicates too rapid addition of
the nitrite. The dioxime was now completely dissolved,
and the solution was allowed to warm
slowly to 20¡C and effervescence to go to completion.
The lemon-colored solution was then neutralized to
litmus by the addition of small portions of barium
carbonate, and the precipitated barium sulfate was
removed, leaving the free succinaldehyde in the
filtrate. The solution was assayed at this point by
precipitating quantitatively from an aliquot portion
the bis-2,4-dinitrophenylhydrazone; the weight of
crude derivative showed that consistent yields of 90%
of the dialdehyde could be expected. Since this
solution was found satisfactory for these studies, the
aldehyde was not isolated, thus avoiding loss of
product. The bis-dinitrophenylhydrazone, after
recrystallization from alcohol, melted at 278-280¡C.

Succindialdoxime [JOC 21, 644-647 (1956)]

Hydroxylamine hydrochloride (90.5 g., 1.30 moles) was
pulverized and stirred 30 minutes at room temperature
with alcohol (400 ml). A solution of potassium
hydroxide (44.8 g, 0.8 mole) in water (50 ml.) and
alcohol (50 ml) was added. To the thick mixture
pyrrole (34.5 ml, 0.5 mole) was admitted and the whole
was refluxed gently for 23 hours, during which period
it gradually turned orange-brown
and gave off ammonia. Alcohol (100 ml) was added,
refluxing continued another hour, and the mixture was
filtered hot with suction. The inorganic residue was
washed white with hot alcohol (100 ml), and the dark
filtrate and washings were concentrated under vacuum
to a tan semi-solid which was collected and washed
with a little alcohol: 56 g. When treated with 18 N
sulfuric acid, the vacuum distillate turned
bluish-green and deposited hydroxylamine hydrosulfate
(1.8 g). The filtrate and washings, which had an odor
reminiscent of indole, containedtarry impurities and
hydroxylamine hemichloride (~8 g). The tan residue (56
g) was mixed with an equal weight of water
(endothermicity!) and, after a half hour, the
water-soluble impurities (ammonium chloride and
hydroxylamine hemichloride) were filtered off leaving
35.5g (61%); This product ras recrystallized by
addition of six times its weight of boiling water,
swirling occasionally until dissolved, adding Darco
(4g), and filtering after 2 minutes through Super-Cel
with suction. The yellow filtrate soon deposited
crystals and, after storing 2 days at 5¡C, the
succindialdoxime was collected; 30.4 grams (52%) of
pale yellow crystals, mp 169-170¡C.

Osmium [Image] posted 05-26-98 04:58 AM
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Give us your coke analogue refs, drone.
Please.

Piglet [Image] posted 05-26-98 10:14 AM
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While we are on the subject of potent analogues, can
anyone comment on the cocaine analogue with a P-Fluoro
group on the benzoic acid ? the Future Synthetic Drugs
of Abuse says that it is 60 times stronger than the
parent compound. Many moons ago I suggested that this
could be made by purchacing cocaine, purifying it and
converting it to ecgonine using CaO and then reacting
it with HCl/Methanol to get the methyl ester & then
Para Fluoro Benzoic Acid. The PFBA could be made from
Para Amino Benzoic Acid (health food shop!) via NaNO2
to produce the diazonium salt and then reaction with
sodium fluoroborate or fluoroboric acid (careful!).
Fluoroboric acid can be made from hydrofluoric acid &
boric acid. You can't use glass for this bit & the
fluoride WILL send you to an early grave if you make a
mistake.
Ammonium flouride can be purchased to clean concrete
off glass & for glass etching.

drone 342 [Image] posted 05-26-98 10:49 AM
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for benztropine analogs that are fun:

US Pat 2799680 (1954)
US Pat 2706198 (1952)
JMC 37, 15, (1994 2258-2261
JMC 38, 20, (1995)3933-3940

for CIT and other coke-esque analogs:
JMC 34, 10, (1991) 2719-2725
JMC 34, 10, (1991) 3144-3146
JMC 35, 13, (1992) 2497-2500
JMC 35, 25, (1992) 4764-4766
JMC 36, 7, (1993) 855- 862
JMC 36, 20, (1993) 2886-2890
JMC 37, 8, (1994) 1220-1223
JMC 37, 10, (1994) 1535-1542
JMC 37, 11, (1994) 1558-1561
JMC 37, 18, (1994) 2865-2873
JMC 38, 2, (1995) 379- 388
JMC 38, 16, (1995) 3086-3093

This is an incomplete list; I have a stack of xeroxes
of articles realted to these chemicals that's about 3
inches thick. Turns out, if you wire the phenyl group
directyly to the tropane ring (no oxygens or
carbonyls, or whatever), potency increases. In
addition, it apprears the general rule is that
substituents on the 4-position of the phenyl generally
increase potency. As for benztropine, it turns out
that if you add halides on its phenyl groups at the
4-position, you get something much more selective for
dopamine, and much less of an anticholinergic, which
translates to a better (higher) ratio of
tweak:wierdness than coke.

This is one of my last posts for a long time, so I
hope this helps out. Keep up the good fight.

-drone --342

336669 [Image] posted 07-20-98 05:09 PM
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wow! you guys really know your stuff, huh? I'm
impressed!

drone 342 [Image] posted 07-21-98 11:03 AM
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Piglet, here are actually analogs of that cocain
derivative that are even STRONGER. I'm awat from my
ref's, but if you look up that fluorophenylecgognine
analog using Beilstein, it'll list many more articles
covering them.

-drone --342

drone 342 [Image] posted 07-21-98 11:06 AM
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336669, thanks. I'm glad our work is appreciated. I've
always felt that fentanyls could act as sort of the
heavy artillary of the WOD's. Considering thier dosage
size, and the materials they can be made out of
they're unstoppable (look what a problem speed is, now
imagine a drug with a dosage *SEVERAL ORDERS OF
MAGNITUDE SMALLER*!)

BOZAKIUM [Image] posted 07-21-98 04:27 PM
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shit! this thread made me bust a nut in my pants!!! I
have always wanted a good lead on the fentanyls, and
y'all bees have opened the door for me. Thanx. For the
money people out there, a pound of methyl fentanyl is
worth over a bilion dollars. It would be great for
someone to do a PIHKAL-type project on all the
fentanyls AND coke analogues.mmm-mmm.

The Alchemist [Image] posted 07-22-98 08:25 PM
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I would love to dream up some methyl-fetanyl but
there's always that old story of the MPTP byproduct.
Under what conditions is this byproduct made and
what's the best way to keep it out?

Clueless on the fentanyl scene but mmmmmmm... does it
sound yummy.

-the alchemist

drone 342 [Image] posted 07-24-98 09:37 AM
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Boz,

A HardDrug-iHKAL-thingy is already in the works!

MTPT is not a byproduct from fentanyls, but rather
from some extremely potent pethidine analogs. Both
opioid agonists, but I never understood why one would
rather make pethidine over fentanyl. It was the result
of high temps and/or low pH's at a particular step,
but don't quote me on that.

The most important thing here hygene. This stuff is
extremely potent, and the last thing you want to do is
accidentally breath in a milligram while working with
it.

-drone --342

Osiris [Image] posted 07-25-98 04:13 PM
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Drone, these fentanyls sound very interesting.
Unfortunately, I do not see them taking over the
world, due to the fact that they are so powerful. In
the LSD world, the chemist can produce liquid and just
pass it down to the people farther down the chain for
them to cut and/or soak into blotter paper. I am
assuming that the entanyls would be primarily
distributed via blotter also. If one of the
distributors fucks up and accidentally makes blotter
without cutting and each blotter has 1 mg LSD, the
unwitting ingestors will trip very hard but since it
is impossible to OD on LSD with anything anywhere
close to a normal dose, they will still be physically
safe.

Make a similar mistake with fentanyls, though, and
people will be dropping like flies, right? That sort
of thing tends to put people off your product. To
avoid this possibility, the chemist will have to make
up the blotters himself. If the chemist makes up ten
million doses of his fentanyl, that means that he has
to dip one hundred thousand blotter cards himself.
Even if our chemist can come up with a way to do this
more quickly and easily, he still has to figure out a
way to purchase 100,000 blotter cards without drawing
a lot of heat. And then he has to figure out how to
MOVE all of that bulky paper.

I have never been involved with anything of this
nature, so this is all speculation and I might be
wrong. If so, please correct me. It would be cool if
massive fentanyl manufacturing, packaging and
distribution could be made to work well - if nothing
else, it would keep a lot of addicts from having to
stick needles in themselves many times a day to get
their fix, which would be a huge boon to overall
public health.

bootie rocket [Image] posted 07-25-98 05:54 PM
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Perhaps it could be dissolved in a solvent and sprayed
on an inactive powder and snorted. I'm not into H or
it's derivitives but I can think of the way most H
masters I've seen prefer to do it, and it aint
snorting;)
You sick little monkeys, I love ya! -BR

ICEKAT [Image] posted 07-26-98 05:00 PM
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Hello ALL,

I participated in a study at the univestity s
departmant of anesthesiology with fentanyl and let me
tell you it is a potentially very very dangerous drug.
I say that because I know first hand. It has some some
terrible side affects like at high doses riggitity and
contraction of muscles, plus a not to unpleasant
itchie eyes, nose, and back. You feel great at first
but I at a very high dose decided I didn't need to
breath. I was so out of it the staff had to shake me
and tell me to remember to breath. I would then
remember and breath but soon forget again until I
became completly unresponsive and had to be resperated
and brought down. I did this two times. And was
artificialy resperated both times. The nausia is
terrible, and Dry heaved twice even though I had
fasted and no liquids and I felt terrilble. This drug
is for only the most responcible of types because
dosage is very very very very very critical. I was
lucky enough to get the experience in a very controled
stetting with a group of trained profesionals working
to make sure everything would be ok. A little oops and
say goodbye cause your going to forget to breath. I
would suggest selling Naloxone (SP?) with any and all
that gets on the streat because that is one of the
only drugs to bring you down in case of overdose. Or a
automatic resperator would work well to.

BECAREFUl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ICEKAT

drone 342 [Image] posted 07-26-98 06:19 PM
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Osiris,

I see what you mean, but this is not the case.
Fentanyl would obviously be mixed with something like
mannitol to dlute it to a more manageable size.

Why would anybody want to do blotter smack?

In any case, you're worried about some dealer fucking
up with measurements -- which is a reasonable concern.
However, with fentanyls, its actaully SAFER than other
comparable drugs. The therapeutic index for fentanyls
is much higher than for heroin, so that you actually
have a safer product. There's a wider safety margin
with fentanyls than with opiates or any other opioids
-- making this more ideal than other products.
Moreover, the general trend with them is that as the
potency increases, so does the ratio between getting
fucked up and ODing. In a certain sense, by providing
this product, a dealer would be offering a safer,
cleaner, healthier alternative to the shit on the
street -- you just might be *saving* lives! Wink

In any
case, the amount of impurities would be greatly
diminished (let's not get nuts here; nobody'll get any
humanitarian awards for distributing synthetic smack,
even if it meant less overdoses, which is certainly
debatable!)

BootieRocket has the right idea here of what could be
done. This idea also came to me. Yes, Bootie, we are
sick. Sick, sick, sick.

I have to say that what Icekat is saying is true --
what he described is a textbook example of an opiate
overdose. However, I'd also add that it's no more
dangerous when it comes to dose-sizing than heroin --
in fact its somewhat safer. A massive dose of just
about any opioid agonist will give the effects that
Icekat described.

Naloxone is not something you want to give to heroin
addicts. Wanna see a pretty freaky death? Watch what
happens when you give 'em an opioid antagonist --
"landflounder" is the name that comes to mind
immediately.

Anyways, this would be a great way of putting certain
countries out of business (or at least give them a run
for their money)-- Burma, Nigeria, Laos, Afghanistan
etc. Imagine the regional chaos when the one commodity
that bolsters the economies and dictatorships of so
many parts of the world
becomes far cheaper and easier to make "at home" than
they possibly could afford to do the conventional way.

-drone --342

drone 342 [Image] posted 07-26-98 06:21 PM
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-------------------------------------------------------
Also, before I forget. Sasha IS NOT putting together a
book on this stuff -- a little German elf friend of
mine is. I realized that my comments might look a
little confusing.

-drone --342

Osiris [Image] posted 07-27-98 01:30 AM
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-------------------------------------------------------
Drone, people would want to do blotter smack for the
same reasons that people want to do blotter LSD: you
can be sure it isn't cut with something dangerous, you
don't have to stick needles in your flesh or snort/eat
bad-tasting powder, you can be reasonably sure that
the dosages are roughly the same per batch, and the
look of the blotter paper provides an excellent way to
easily determine the potency/quality of the drug and
which batch it came from. You just suck on a tiny
piece of tasteless blotter paper for half an hour and
then spit it out.

Suppose you mixed your fentanyl with mannitol, like
you said. Can you be sure that there aren't any
isolated bits of pure fentanyl that didn't get
adequately mixed? Everyone, no matter how competent,
makes a mistake every now and then. Can you vouch for
the cutters farther down the line as well? Or suppose
I don't like to snort or slam mannitol or other filler
substances and I am used to purifying my street shit
before I use it. I can't do that with fentanyl because
I'll be lucky if I can *see* the pure drug when all
the cut is gone!

Although I am not into opiates, I would probably try
fentanyl on blotter (once) if it was offerent to me.
There is NO FUCKING WAY IN HELL I would ingest
fentanyl in powder form. Too risky, especially
considering that it looks much easier to make fentanyl
than LSD and therefore the competence of the cooker
could easily be much lower. If you were the chemist
I'd probably trust you to have done things correctly,
but out on the street you don't usually know these
things and the risks are simply too great.

As far as the ED/LD ratio, is it high enough that if
someone slams a couple mg of powder which is 90%
fentanyl instead of 0.5% (or whatever) they won't die?
I doubt it, although you are the expert here. This
could easily happen if the chemist lets any pure
product get out of his lab and it is cut improperly by
some know-nothing backstreet dealer. Thus, your
chemist has to cut the shit out of his stuff before he
sells it, thus multiplying enormously the quantities
of material he has to move and thereby negating one of
the few things that work in a chemist's favor - that
he can sell pure product in a less bulky form.

I don't mean to rain on your parade and you are the
expert on the drug itself and I know nothing about
fentanyls except what you have posted on The Hive, but
I honestly don't see distribution on anything but
blotter as being workable. With blotter the chemist
has the hassle of having to prepare all the doses
himself, but at least he isn't leaving it up to people
who either don't know or don't care about how to
properly handle such incredibly potent drugs.

You have let the cat out of the bag with your detailed
new methods of fentanyl production. If your methods
are as easy as you say they are, they will leave the
Hive and show up on the street because the smack
market is so very lucrative. I would hate to have this
new market start off with hundreds of OD deaths before
a safe way of ensuring dosage consistency starts being
used. If the people that are undoubtedly reading this
right now and are planning to set up fentanyl labs
start from scratch with use of blotter paper as a dose
distribution mechanism, hopefully those hundreds of
ODs will never have to happen.

Fentanyl chemists/dealers will certainly not win any
official humanitarian awards, but if they can convince
hardcore addicts to switch from AIDS-spreading needles
to harmless blotter tabs, I think a great good will
have been done. As well, if tens of millions of doses
of fentanyl can be cooked up without LSD-level
difficulty, the overall street price should come WAY
down due to dealer competition and maybe more addicts
will be able to afford their fixes without having to
make a living as thieves, dealers or prostitutes. I
think those are quite noble goals, as is the goal of
taking the production of opiates (and hopefully
cocaine too, someday) away from third world countries
who cannot hope for political stability as long as the
incredibly lucrative drug trade poses such a pervasive
corrupting influence.

This thread is without a doubt the most important
topic that has yet come up on the Hive. In fact, it is
the most important topic I have seen come up since I
started reading the original alt.drugs in 1990. These
hyperpotent synthetic analogues of heroin and cocaine
have the potential to change the world to such an
extent that I am finding it difficult to grasp the
sheer scale of it. Realignment of the foundations of
the Heroin and Cocaine trade will topple governments
and criminal empires.

Given that what is said on The Hive almost certainly
makes it way to the ears of those who control these
empires, they'll certainly perceive you as a threat to
their profits and try to eliminate you and anyone else
you are working with before you can make any further
advances or publish that book.

You had better make sure that your internet anonymity
is absolutely uncompromiseable. Better get a Nymserver
account from the Lycaeum instead of your current
hotmail account, and invest in a subscription to a TCP
anonymizer while you are at it. You need to assume
that these people have the resources to buy phone taps
and traces, pay hackers to sniff packets everywhere
looking for the string "Drone 342" and to break into
any systems that they need to to acquire this
information. They could bribe or threaten the managers
of Wolfe.net (The Lycaeum's upstream internet service
provider) to allow them to sniff every packet that
enters or leaves the Lycaeum. They could do the same
to Hotmail, which logs all TCP connections.

These people will not be worried about their evidence
being admissible in court, they will not have to
operate within the law to get their information, and
they have enough money to buy God. They won't want to
arrest and prosecute you, they will want to kill you.
And right now you are the single biggest threat to
their money and power.

If the speculators about the CIA's drug running are
correct, this will also put a severe crimp in *their*
cash flow, and if you don't want to piss of the drug
cartels, you REALLY don't want to piss of the spooks.
The spooks can find anyone, anytime, anywhere and take
them out with surgical precision. That is their job.
And they work hand-in-glove with the NSA, who analyze
every single packet that flows over the internet.
Worldwide. They are almost certainly going to read
this. Hi, guys!

No, I am not posting this in the middle of a ----
psychosis. I am completely sober. If you aren't scared
yet, you are a fool. I am pretty fucking scared
myself. If you continue to work on making syntheses of
cocaine and heroin analogues easier, I suggest you cut
all societal contacts and move to somewhere very
remote to continue your work. You MIGHT be safe enough
if you use the Nymserver and a TCP anonymizer, but I
can't guarantee that those resources haven't been
co-opted by the spooks as well.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do, Drone. You'll
need it.

First off, thank you for the kind words. I've given
this action a lot of thought, and I felt it very
necessary to the right thing by letting the world
know.

You said:

"Fentanyl chemists/dealers will certainly not win any
official humanitarian awards, but if they can convince
hardcore addicts to switch from AIDS-spreading needles
to harmless blotter tabs, I think a great good will
have been done. As well, if tens of millions of doses
of fentanyl can be cooked up without LSD-level
difficulty, the overall street price should come WAY
down due to dealer competition and maybe more addicts
will be able to afford their fixes without having to
make a living as thieves, dealers or prostitutes. I
think those are quite noble goals, as is the goal of
taking the production of opiates (and hopefully
cocaine too, someday) away from third world countries
who cannot hope for political stability as long as the
incredibly lucrative drug trade poses such a pervasive
corrupting influence."

You also said:

"These hyperpotent synthetic analogues of heroin and
cocaine have the potential to change the world to such
an extent that I am finding it difficult to grasp the
sheer scale of it. Realignment of the foundations of
the Heroin and Cocaine trade will topple governments
and criminal empires."

...And that is exactly why I had to let this
information out. I couldn't have said it better.

Yes, I am concerned a bit for my own annonymity,
privacy, and freedom. However, I've ALWAYS posted from
public terminals annonymously. While the
Powers-That-Be could certainly find me out if they
REALLY tried, I'll just take my chances. If this
spreads, it was worth it. If not, then I'm safe.

Anyways, back to nuts-and-bolts. Originally, I was
skeptical of the blotter packaging idea, but now I see
its advantages. While I'll stand by powder for
personal snortin' reasons, blotter is the way to go
for "The Masses". For safety, eating the shit is best,
but eating it will pretty much eliminate The Rush --
the whole point to smack in the first place! It also
means feeling A LOT sicker. The reason people snort
and shoot smack is because the reward is immediate and
overpowering. With eating, you have to wait a bit, and
why wait? However, by soaking the blotter tab in 0.5
mL of H2O, you have your fentanyl in shootable form
(or a sort of nasal spray.) This means that this form
would be neatly dosed -- far moreso than conventional
H, and guarunteed uncut. Such a form would have its
own sort of mark of quality, and would ensure a
greater degree of safety for the user.

-drone --342

ketone [Image] posted 07-30-98 10:36 PM
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-------------------------------------------------------
Drone: the birth of a new designer drug ;-)

Excellent work...thanks for sharing and I commend you
for your guys and hard work!

-ketone

Osiris [Image] posted 07-30-98 11:51 PM
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-------------------------------------------------------
Drone, you are a man of conviction. Such are rare in
today's world, especially among drug chemists (not to
suggest that you are one of those, just a random point
y'know). I admire your courage.

Good to see that you are taking your internet security
seriously. I guess I went a little bit overboard with
the paranoia in my previous post, but I thought about
it a bit and came to the following conclusion: drug
lords probably won't have the technical acumen to be
able to track you down if you take precautions (and it
sounds like you are), and if the spooks wanted you
you'd already be dead. Besides, like you said, all
that fentanyl stuff is already out there in the
literature, right? Whacking you wouldn't solve
anything. But it will be very interesting to see what
the cartels will do when fentanyl starts hitting the
streets. Will they cut their prices? Will they give
up? Will they start producing fentanyl themselves?
Interesting times a-comin.

I like your idea about treating the blotter tabs as a
universal dose "package". The nasal spray idea is
killer! People could "shoot up" in public and no one
would know! You could maintain a habit and still have
a normal life - just tell everyone that you have
chronic sinus problems |->. I have heard of people
doing this trick with cocaine in saline solution - one
puff up each nostril and you have the equivalent buzz
of a couple cups of coffee, without the jitteriness of
caffeine and without a gutful of bitter liquid. Less
addictive than snorting lines or smoking base, too -
efficient doasge titration is a major key to avoiding
tolerance and addiction.

Now, the blotters will need to be printed with a
distinctive logo to eliminate any possibility of
confusion with LSD tabs. I suggest a little needle -
that should get the point across |->. The logo should
be sized to fit on one tab so if the tabs are broken
up and somehow mixed up with LSD tabs, they can still
be readily identified. That is probably pretty
unlikely, but better safe than sorry. The blotter
pattern could be customized on a per-batch basis by
varying the color and/or color pattern of the
background and/or the logo.

Junkies have historically looked down on psychedelic
drugs and LSD in particular. Given this, it'll be
funny as hell to see fentanyl users saying things like
"man, those aqua tabs were the BEST! They were soooo
clean..." or calling certain batches "triple-dipped"
|->.

Rhodium [Image] posted 07-31-98 08:31 AM
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-------------------------------------------------------
When will we get a step-by-step "recipe" for the
production of OTC fentanyl analogs here? Such a text
would get a special place on my chemistry page. It is
always fun to change the world as we know it ;)

Bright Star [Image] posted 07-31-98 09:08 AM
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-------------------------------------------------------
Thank you drone for not being scared off. Osiris put
the 'willies' in me for a while... but after all, the
information should be available. But then again, I'm
the paranoid type.

And even if these analogs become available... It
definatly would be a liquid, with the fentanyl
dissolved in it. A little shacking and everyone is
assured of a common dosage.

Bright Star

Lump [Image] posted 07-31-98 04:38 PM
[Click Here to See the Profile for Lump]
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Hope you guys make this a reality. Well do I remember
the last big batch of fentanyl analogues to hit the
East Coast. It was around 1992/93, and I believe the
material was 3-methyl-fentanyl. It was MUCH better
than plain vanilla fentanyl -- lasted every bit as
long as heroin and felt identical from rush to nod to
dopesickness. The stuff was all over the streets for
awhile and killed a couple of friends of mine. IT
CANNOT BE CUT IN THE USUAL WAYS WITH POWDER. I was
very happy to see the above suggestion of blotter, as
I'd been thinking of that since those noddy days.

By the way, does anyone know anything about George
Marquart (sp??). I know he's rotting away for
producing much of the super-fent this country has
seen, but never learned much about him.

Osiris [Image] posted 07-31-98 11:49 PM
Junior Member
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-------------------------------------------------------
I read about Marquat in Newsweek when he was busted.
They said he was supplying the entire east coast with
fentanyl, was a reclusive super-genius chemist, and
acted alone. Wierd guy - when the judge asked him what
type of chemist he was, he said "clandestine" |->. I'm
sure that didn't reduce his sentence any...

Cyclops [Image] posted 08-03-98 09:51 AM
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-------------------------------------------------------
Funny you should mention Marquart. He was on an
episode of "The Justice Files" just last weekend. Very
unapolgetic too, he was. The producers of the show
called him a mass murderer...such audacity! He was
givin' the people what they wanted. Another featured
on the same show was J. Dahmer, one who gave nothing
to anyone, while taking all. Shameless non-sequitur.

drone 342 [Image] posted 08-03-98 10:27 PM
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-------------------------------------------------------
Rh,

A fentanyl synth with all its gory details is
underway. Puttin together something as involved as a
fentanyl "recipe" is hard work, and takes a lot of
time -- especially now that I don't have OCR
capabilities anymore! Originally, this was something I
was hoping to have published, and I'm still thinking
about it.

I've managed to compile information that has eluded
almost everyone, and it does feel a little wierd just
*giving* it away. Still, my beliefs drive me to do
something liek this. This whole writing process may
take a while.

-drone --342

Shaft [Image] posted 08-06-98 01:55 AM
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-------------------------------------------------------
Drone 342:
I feel that it may not be my place to say, but giving
this recipe away is a very
generous act. Alot of people harbor the
idea that there is a marked line between
opiates and other drugs due to their
strength, and possibility of withdrawls
or whatever.
So a bold act could be to publish
this book on "hard" drugs, and
distribute recipes freely on the fentanyl analogues.
It's definately not my place to say, but I say go for
it. I, for one,
think maybe a little segment could
be set aside for synthesis of these
compounds; with troubleshooting tips, recipes, and
further.

saint_nicholaus [Image] posted 08-10-98 11:37 AM
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what up gang? short reply on blotter paper issue. if
fentanyl is water soluble you could drop blotter in a
rig and go to it i have seen it done with LSD and
DH2O. onset was instintaneous or about 3 seconds,
duration of peak was diminished to about 4 hours from
8, affect still hung out for about 24 hours such as
dialated pupils and general tweeked pespective. chris.

Kaff [Image] posted 08-20-98 03:36 AM
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-------------------------------------------------------
I know absolutely nothing about fentanyl anoalogs in
fact I never even heard of them before, but they sound
really incredible. I never knew that there are
synthetic drugs stronger than heroin and cocaine. Yes,
definitely a great idea to get recipes for this. I
think also we should work on the microwave chemistry
aspect, as mentioned on Rhodium's page. Microwaves
seem to have the potential to increase yields and save
time. How about a bunch of chemists collaborating on a
really thick book- the drug version of "The Joy of
Cooking". A book the size of a big real cookbook.

drone 342 [Image] posted 08-22-98 05:28 PM
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-------------------------------------------------------
Progress report:

This synthetic description is taking way too much
time. However, progress is being made, and new
chemical insights are being discovered.

Yes, fentanylsare pretty amazing. However, these still
aren't the strongest recreational drugs of all; in my
studies I've seen a few things active at the
sub-nanomolar level that may or may not be worth
investigating. Can't remember much about these
chemicals, but I'll dig through my notes on it.

-drone --342

Kaff [Image] posted 08-22-98 11:04 PM
Member
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java · Consumer

I found the post most enlightning and very resourceful with references and the whole thing is outlined quite good. SWIM have interest in this type of chemistry but for now he's consoled to read about it and gather the info and file it for the day SWIM light up the lab and research the procedure.......thanks for the re-posting , java