portable electricity?

java · Consumer

algae
(Hive Bee)
10-09-02 11:25
No 366524




portable electricity?
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How are some ways one could get a power supply to run a couple thousand volts of electricity in an environment where there is no means of outside electricity supply?(i.e. electric company)
There are a few way one could do this, I guess. One could be to run a genterator to power the appliance needed. This would probably give sufficient amount of energy, but they're so damn loud. Another way would be to buy a car battery and a few items from Radio Crack and use the car batter as a power source. Then there is a battery backup supply giving very limited amounts of energy, probably enough just to shine a light bulb for a day or so. All these mentioned would, at least give some amounts of power, but either have very limited supply, or have a risk of causing a fire. Any thoughts?
Could a solar panal of some type give sufficient amounts of power?

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
10-09-02 11:52
No 366529




Define sufficient. What are your energy needs?
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Define sufficient.
What are your energy needs?

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

raffike
(Hive Addict)
10-09-02 12:02
No 366532




Solar panel could give some power but when you ...
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Solar panel could give some power but when you check the price of one of these babies you'll know that it's not an option.
A friend with speed is a friend indeed

Chicken
(Hive Bee)
10-09-02 12:26
No 366542




If you have running water
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If you have running water near by or better a streat you can buy a hydroelectric generator that puts out 8.3 Amps at 12 Volts DC, 200 Amp-Hours (AH) per day (2.4 kWh) with a stream speed of 9 m.p.h. At 6 m.p.h. it will still produce 1.5 kWh per day. This make no noise at all. The power is stored in deep cell batteries. This only costs $1,400.

Solar is a poor alternative to produce a panel that produces 300watts (.3KW) costs $600, so to produce 2.4KW, you would need 8 panels at a cost of $4800, and this would only produce energy with sun obviously, and also requires deep cell batteries.

Wind power is also a poor alternative wind power produces Startup windspeed is 7 mph. Output at 15 mph is 75 W, at 28 mph is 400W and at 38 mph is 600W. So assuming you live in a normal area 15MPh average, you only generate 75W for $900, giving wind the benifit of the doubt even at 38MPh, you still need 4@$900 or $2300 to produce the same ower as the water.

However a 7KW Liquid Propane genrator will cast $2,170, and will produce more then enough power. LP gas generators are quiter then gasoline or diesel generator by a fair margin.

Organikum
(Hive Bee)
10-09-02 14:36
No 366575




Stirling Engine powered generator
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Get yourself an Stirling engine powered generator.
Runs on nearly anything what burns and is very quiet. Not cheap but first choice.

Phillips NL made such in the 60¥s, most were for military use/civil defense. You will have to look hard at surplus worldwide, but if you can get one you¥ll see: this parts are far superior.

ORGY

goiterjoe
(Title on BackOrder)
10-09-02 17:44
No 366628




what are you going to run?
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couple thousand volts of electricity in an environment where there is no means of outside electricity

you planning on holding an electrocution in the woods? Why do you need something other than 120/240VAC? your best bet is to get a generator. All of the rest of the options are far from portable or easy to set up. If you are looking for something permanent, then look into a windmill or a hydroelectric dam or river paddle system. These are going to cost you, but at least they'll work. Solar panels are nothing more than a novelty.
All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

algae
(Hive Bee)
10-10-02 15:54
No 367005




Thanks for the very informative replies.
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Thanks for the very informative replies. Swia lives in a not so windy area, and has no running water within a 20 mile radius. So wind and water are out of the question. Has anyone ever used any of the other methods mentioned? LP seems like an option worth looking into, and would probably better suit swias needs. Did a search and got quite a few interesting findings on LP generators. Yeah, not cheap at all, but would fulfill swia's needs.

goiterjoe: That figure was just thrown from thin air, and probably an overestimated one to say the least .

goiterjoe
(Title on BackOrder)
10-10-02 19:29
No 367084




volts are a measure of potential
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you should give us an estimate of how much power you will need, either in horsepower or watts. if you're needing just a few kW, say for running 3 or 4 small electrical devices, then look into getting a gasoline generator. If you're looking into running an all out operation of sorts, then look into getting a LP gas turbine generator or a large diesel unit.
All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

Trenchcoat
(Hive Bee)
10-10-02 20:11
No 367097




get 2 hampsters and breed them until you have an ...
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get 2 hampsters and breed them until you have an army of 1000 hampsters. Use 1000 standard hampster wheel generators hooked in series. That should be sufficient for your needs.
Better loving through chemistry.

Organikum
(Hive Bee)
10-10-02 21:46
No 367118




this for example ?
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Stirlingengine
made in NZ by Whisper Tech Ltd. of Christchurch

5000 W in heat
750 Watt in electricity
12V/Dc or 24V/DC
Fuel: Diesel, Gas
< 0,7l/day consumtion (diesel)
44 dbA, 45cm x 50cm x 65cm, 90 kg

as this was more intended for use on boats, this might come better:
Rural area power supplies (RAPS)

The WG 800 provides 800W of electrical power and a 3kWe
The WG 3000, 3000W el.

ORGY

Uiiii !! 114% from goodwill and tapwater. Go for Overunity !!

hey_man
(LEGBA)
10-11-02 00:41
No 367189




algae
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Everyone keeps asking you what your power needs are and I don't think they are being very clear about what they really mean.

In other words, what exactly are you wanting to try to run, for example a couple 100 Watt light bulbs, a microwave, a TV, etc...

Being the nature of our site its also not likely that it would be in your best comfort to answer such a question with much detail, but, now that you understand a little further what they specificaly mean when asking this you will be better informed on how to answer this question. It may seen trivial to you right now, but there is no way to answer your question correctly without knowing this.

What you need to do is look at the specs of everything you plan to run from this power source, almost every elcetronic device will have a label on it indicating its power consumption, this may be labelled in either watts or amps, doesn't matter. You need to however add these specs up for all the devices you plan to run, since most power sources are going to be marketed in output watts it would be easier for us, save us the trouble in other words, if you added up the total wattage you need to supply for everything you want to use.

Do a search on google for "Ohms law" to figure out how to add all this up or convert amps to watts. Ohm's law is very simple, yes I could in about a single sentence explain it to you here but your likely to learn a lot more about what you need to know if you do a simple search for that info yourself.

Once we know what the total wattage you need to supply is a much better answer to your question can be given. Without this info your going to get answers that generate either overkill or under kill for your actual needs.

WizardX
(Wizard Master)
10-12-02 21:08
No 367799




Voltage Stepper Circuit!
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If you want to step-up 125 or 250 Volts @ 15Amps TO 2000 Volts @ 15Amps then you need a step-up transformer or a Voltage Stepper Circuit!

Goto your library and look for "The Encyclopaedia of Electronic Ciruits", by Rudolf F. Graf

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
10-12-02 21:31
No 367806




> 125 or 250 Volts @ 15Amps TO 2000 Volts @ ...
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> 125 or 250 Volts @ 15Amps TO 2000 Volts @ 15Amps

This cannot work.
I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

hey_man
(LEGBA)
10-13-02 00:12
No 367838




and why not Mr Osmium?
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Could it be because when we step up the voltage we have to take the loss in the amperage?

Do I get a gold star if my answer is correct?

goiterjoe
(Title on BackOrder)
10-13-02 02:34
No 367882




voltage goes up, current goes down
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transformers do not create power, they only convert it's form. If the voltage goes up, the current goes down and impedance go up.
All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

catseye1
(Hive Bee)
10-13-02 03:20
No 367891




This has been publicized for months
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so it's got to be coming to market soon.
might wanna get on their mailing list
http://www.colemanpowermate.com/fuelcell.shtml

hey_man
(LEGBA)
10-13-02 03:28
No 367899




Thanks joe
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WizardX is fully aware of this, we were just having some fun with his typo.

You however have a typo as well...

If the voltage goes up, the current and impedance go up.

Actually, if you use a (step up) transformer to increase the voltage the amperage goes down, in a basic transformer your cycles would remain the same.

Lower (step down) the voltage and the current will go up, cycles remain the same.

See my references to Ohm's law in this thread.

The link to the coleman fuel cells info, seems to be somewhat lacking in info, I'd have to see some actual specs on what they are proposing before I'd really get excited about developing too much interest in it. I've never found Colemans generators to be of much quality, and the B&S motors they use on their gas powered generators are some of the noiset ones out there. I've less than had some hands on experience with all generators out there, but I've been around a few ranging from huge diesel powered commercial ones to little tiny very portable ones. I'd have to rate the Honda generators as some of the best I have experience with for personal use applications, based on reliability, fuel economy, weight and they're quieter than most other comparable models. One pull starting and elecric starting are also a plus.

A lot of people go half assed into their purchase of a generator and get home only to find out its unable to produce the amount of power they want to use it for. Either what they are trying to do will not work, internal circuit breakers trip, or they get real bright and decide to bypass the circuit breakers and end up burning out the windings. You can usually find some good deals on such generators, there really isn't anything to them so they are easily repairable, yet mind boggling devices to some people so when they break they usually get sold off rather cheap by someone who believes they are ripping you off.

algae
(Hive Bee)
10-13-02 15:54
No 368096




specs?
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Sorry for the lack of info.

The total wattage for the items of interest are 1148 watts. Now how is this translated in generator terms? Or should I say, what specs on the generator whould one look for? Would it be as simple as finding one that's capable to (produce?) said wattage?
Still learning the conversion factors, so if more info is needed let me know.

hey_man
(LEGBA)
10-13-02 17:11
No 368131




Exactly
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It's that easy, now I'm going to make it hard, sorry.

If you go with a generator make sure you get one that can produce AT LEAST that wattage, the more the generator is capable of producing the better off you are.

Be careful though, once again misleading advertising can catch you off gaurd with the labeled rating on many Generators. I have no idea what kind of math the marketing departments do but a rated wattage you see in huge numbers on the box and on the generator can be in reality very false. I've seen them somehow come up with a wattage rating they use on the label that actual adds the total output wattage while using the 120VAC sum added to the 240VAC sum. However, the actual wattage the generator is in reality able to produce will be one wattage if used for 120, or the other wattage if used for 240 -NOT THE SUM OF BOTH! despite being rated this way on the label.

If you pay attention on many generators you can not use both 120 and 240 volt outlets at the same time, just one or the other. Some will even have a 12VDC battery charger winding that they'll also add into this total wattage, yet this will in reality subtract from the available wattage of either the 240 or 120 VAC operation of the generator, thus making the total output wattage even less.

Again, this doesn't apply to all generators, just many of them, be aware of it and be very cautious in the fact that they will try to mislead you in this way. Its important enough that if you don't understand what I just said ask me again and I'll try to explain it to you slower.

I'm also suspecting that you don't really need 2000 volts right?

In other words, say you wanted to just run two 100Watt / 120Volt light bulbs on your generator.

You would not need 120volts + 120volts = 240volts, you only need the total of 120volts,

but you would need a generator that produced at least the minimum of what your wanting to use in Watts,

in this case it would be 120Volt output total with 100Watts + 100Watts = 200Watts of total output.

Leave the voltage alone, just add up the Wattage of everything your wanting to use, which it sounds like you probably correctly did in your last post.

One final catch to watch out for when adding up your Wattage total if any of the devices your wanting to use have an AC electric motor on it, for example a refrigerator, or a heavy duty exhaust fan, etc...

AC motors will useually be rated in AMPs not Watts, use Ohms Law to make the simple conversion from AMPs to Watts for the 120V circuit, however, its still not just that easy to calculate when an AC motor is involved and used on a generator. This is because AC motors in reality have two completely different actual AMP draws that you need to be aware of. "Start AMPs" and "Run AMPs", your generator must be able to deliver at least the amount of Start AMPs or your electric motor will never be able to run, possibly even burning out your generator or the AC motor if allowed to try hard/long enough.

When an AC motor is first given electricity (when you turn it on) it draws a very high amperage for a very short time because its made of nothing more than a single very long piece of wire thats been all wound together. This single piece of wire offers no resistance until the EMF (Electro Magnetic Force) created by the AC current has a chance to create resistance in the circuit which then reduces the AMP draw, thus giving you whats refered to as the Run Amperage, more resistance, less amperage, OHM's Law.

For example, an electric powered air compressor may be able to run and show the rating of 9 Amps (Run), however, in order to get the motor first started and running its going to need access to a total of possibly 90Amps (Start), once its up and running then the total it will be drawing is the 9 run Amps. You only need that 90 Amps for a split second, but you do need it or the motor can not start. If you do your OHMs Law calculating on 90AMPS you'll find that its a considerable amount of load for the total wattage.

I realize I propably just tossed a lot of info at you in one confusing shot there, but its realy not as difficult as it may sound so I'll sumerize all of it for you, if the summory makes sense, you got it, if not try reading it again a couple times then ask about what part is confusing you.

* Add total wattage you need, (do not add or subtract the Voltage)

* Make sure actual wattage of generator can deliver at least this much (remember misleading advertising can decieve you! Be a smart shopper)

* If your using anything that has an AC motor on it, be sure to allow for the START amps, some AC motors show both RUN and START amps on their specs, Some however only show you the RUN amps which is considerably lower than the START.

* If your not sure what the START amps are going to be on your AC motor because it lists the RUN amps only, a safe bet is to take 200% of the run amps, this number is going to be slightly high, but its a safe high, particularly if the motor is to be started cold while already under its work load (like say an electric hoist that you've stopped half way in the air then restart to raise or lower). There's an actual formula I could give you for calculating the START amps but it gets realy confusing because there are multiple variables you'd need to calculate, 200% is a fail to safe bet.

algae
(Hive Bee)
10-13-02 19:24
No 368219




voltage overkill
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2000 volts was, in fact, the SUM of the items, which was the cause of error.
Swim thinks he should look into getting a generator with at least twice the amount of wattage needed for leeway (sound reasonable?).
Just did a google on run amps vs. start amps and found that a stock car requires 200 amps to start, and 20 to run, hooked up to a 16v battery. Irrelavent, but I get the idea.

hey_man
(LEGBA)
10-13-02 20:06
No 368239




Marketing
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You may change your mind when you start seeing twice the price, but, knock yourself out, just keep in mind, the sales pitch wattage can be decieving, twice this wattage when added up the way the marketers do it may not be enough, even with the thought that your buying twice what you need.

Make sure you clearly see in the generators (real world) specs what the actual output is for the voltage your going to use, 120VAC I would suspect.

If you find one you have in mind there's probably some actual tech (not sales) specs for it on line. Burn it up and you might have trouble taking it back to shove up someones ass for being so misleading. I can't even remember off hand what brands do this shit, I'd stay away from them just for this reason, and I'm wanting to say its the Sears Craftsman Generators (which are actually made by a company named "Generac"). Don't quote me on that though, and their likely also not the only ones who try to decieve you like this.

If I were to recommend one it would be a Honda, I've never known anybody to not be happy with their Generators (of course there's always that 1)

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gen.htm

They also have a common AMP/WATT list on their site, these are "ball park" values though
(should have looked before I went through the trouble of typing all that).

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/wat.htm

algae
(Hive Bee)
10-13-02 21:31
No 368282




got it!
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I beleive I now have the info. I need in making an informative decision. Found, what seems to be, a few good sources. And all are priced at what one would expect.
And I now have this heap of printouts all about Ohms Law that I can sit down to and study tomorrow.
Thanks for the help. This was IN DEED what swim wanted to know.

goiterjoe
(Title on BackOrder)
10-13-02 21:53
No 368290




I corrected it.
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I wrote the method correctly in my subject line, but then left out some words in the body of the post.
All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

hey_man
(LEGBA)
10-13-02 22:16
No 368305




Your title
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I think we may have made the same mistake when ordering your title, probably why its still on back order.