Author Topic: Saturday night fun...  (Read 268 times)

salat

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Saturday night fun...
« on: May 23, 2010, 04:35:18 AM »
I'm doing a soxhlet of raw cacao using 150 proof alcohol.

My partner is trying to see how dry he can get some ethanol.   Neither of us drink (alcohol)... 
 
His setup is really cool so I thought I'd take a couple of pics.  He's got a long column filled with steel wool attached to a vigreux then a long condenser and it's a very sloooooowww drip drip of stuff coming out, so we'll be up most of the night although he's calculating how much mol sieve he'd need - that stuff don't work too well.  Has a tendency to contaminate with some kind of dust.  Also got a shot of the power controller he's using to - it's got more pieces and parts to it that he pulled from various ebay finds.  It's a eurotherm and he's pretty happy with it.


salat
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Sedit

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2010, 05:07:50 AM »
May I be the first to say its a sight of beauty.  I love the setup clean and to the point very nice. I dream of having a nice setup one day. Luck will have me wait till there baned by the government though knowing me.

With the mol sieve, I have no first hand experiance with them but even dush should not be to much of an issue with it. Perhaps a high heat and the oven for a couple house would make it more effective since it would burn off all organics/water and such leaving only metal cations behind as the only contamination and there presence should be neglectible.
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salat

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2010, 05:46:49 AM »
He does do things well!!  (he's as neat as I'm messy - we're planning on spending the rest of our lives driving each other nuts)  This is the nicest setup I've ever seen him do, I got to watch the steam build slowly up the column.  I've never used a vigreux so it's cool to see one in action.

He's done a bunch of stuff with the mol sieve, apparently it is normally a bit dusty.

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salat

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2010, 01:59:44 PM »
We shut down the distillation about 3 am.  He took a sample and tested it and it was only 90%.  He's getting mid 90's with the mol sieve (3A).  (our hygrometer isn't as acurate as he'd like - he's a multi-decimal accuracy kind a guy)  He's going to deal with the mol sieve dust by filtering through a fritted tube and use calcium chloride to dry the air.  It's Really humid in FL and he like's his Martini's DRY!!
 ;D
salat

P.S. his hygrometer shows almost 100% after the filtering!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 03:46:15 PM by salat »
Salat

drone1240

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2010, 08:33:38 PM »
Looks like yall had a productive night. Very nice work salat. I really like the lattice work that the clamps screw on to.If you could be so nice to tell me the technical name of it(the lattice) I would be grateful.   I did soxhlet extraction the other day and am embarrassed to post my set up after seeing you at work but I guess I will. I hope it is appropriate to post pics in your forum if not my apologies. If it counts I believe I did mine on Saturday as well.
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jon

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2010, 11:36:59 PM »
in the sigma catalogs i think they are just referered to clamp lattices been a while but nothing much more technical than that.
it's amazing how expensive some of those are i could do the same with stainless rods a tig torch and a  little welding wire.

that setup looks precariously top heavy
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 11:39:29 PM by jon »

salat

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 02:14:41 AM »
That's not me.... That's my husband's set up he's been doing chemistry since he was a kid - he built the table and mounts himself and used fisher poles and standard clamps.  We use T-slot a lot - you can get it on ebay from 8020 garage sale really reasonably.  It's like an erector set scaled up.   The 6061 aluminum is really easy to work with compared to most metals - you can drill it with a standard drill and we cut it with a chop saw.  They also sell scrap pieces of aluminum that you can build connector plates with.  If you have a drill press and some patience you could make some really cheaply.  I even managed to make some and my precision/hand eye coordination sucks.

Your setup is very nice - I think it's fun to share pics of stuff - you get ideas and learn from it.  Anybody else have any problems with soxhlet's backing up etc?  I put an inch of scrubbie (like you clean grills with) in the bottom of mine because nothing else worked and I didn't want to use a thimble (frit is hard to clean).

http://cgi.ebay.com/8020-Aluminum-Solid-Block-1-625-x-1-625-x-3-75-Long-/220555655272?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335a243868
This is a piece of solid 6061 aluminum that would be usable for making clamps - probably should coat it with something to protect it from spills, stuff gets in the channels and eats reacts with the metals - unless you're my husband who is so neat he doesn't spill stuff.  It's almost dangerous for him to be teaching me chemistry because he is so good at it that he doesn't remember what newbies are like!

This is a link to 80/20's website they have a book that shows the kind of stuff you can build with it.
http://www.8020.net/

We got some good deals at skycraft surplus in Orlando - they had the lattice connections in with a bunch of regular clamps for a buck a piece.  I'm lucky that way.   
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salat

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2010, 04:15:24 AM »
Changed to Tuesday.  Just got trial #3 of steam distillation setup and voila this puppy is cooking fast!!

It's cinnamomum zelyanicum in the pot.  I need a better condenser on the down spout but I couldn't find one with joints on both ends the right size so this one had to do.  Turned out my husband had the condenser I needed but it was wrapped up in insulation so I couldn't find it.  I rigged some sort of weird chromatography funnel for adding water while it's cooking.  I got the glas col in auction for 60$ and boy does it cook fast.

I'm a beginner so this is a big deal for me.  It's coming over really quick once I put the insulation on.  See the little white drops, I was expecting it to have color.  

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drone1240

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2010, 02:31:59 PM »
Very nice salat . Your gonna make me put some pics up as well if you dont watch it. Cheers and of course bee safe.
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salat

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2010, 11:08:29 PM »
Thanks I'm having fun.  Main danger is running dry in the flask - if you put too much water in you're boiling rather than steaming.  So every 5-10 minutes I have to go and check the water levels.

I'm working on a scheme for creating a larger scale steam distillation apparatus using 2 pressure tanks I got at auction.  I'm thinking of stacking the plant materials in one and generate the steam in the other.  I'm still working out how to heat both tanks and finding the right plumbing parts for it.  Plants are my thing chemistry wise so I am working on learning to extract useful chemicals from them for my synthesis minded husband to play with.  It seems like we spend more time cleaning up junk than doing chemistry OTC chemicals getting old.

I'll post a pic if I ever get it working.

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 12:32:42 AM »
Heating both would be simple since I have spent years envisioning a larger steam distiller. I am on the same page as you about the plant extraction as you already know.
What can be done is to place one tank directly above the other. Heat rises and once the steam gets going it will generate heat that rises warming the other tank as well. I have done two pot steam distillation with BnO and it does not take long before the steam from the first heats the second to the point needed to make it a constant thing. Keep the second well insulated and it should not pose to much of a problem at all.

Being large scale this may have some kinks to work out in the end but I have spend well over a decade perfecting steam distillation and envisioned many many ways of scaling up. The above is what I have concluded from all my small scale work will be the best approch.
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salat

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 02:35:13 AM »
Thanks that's a cool (hot) idea!!

The tanks are expensive some of the times, but if you watch carefully you can get some good deals.  I have 2 stainless and one aluminum one that are rated up to 100 and 110 psi.  I paid 50$ or less for each of them but I've seen them for a lot more.  One of the companies who makes them is Alloy Products, can't recall the name of the other one.   I've been thinking of making a tape heater for the steam generator.  They have 3/8" tapped outlets at each of the places I marked in my diagram.   I could rearrange things so that the safety valve and bleeder hose are on the side and run the pipe up instead of sideways. 

The lids aren't real big so I've been trying to figure out how to space the plant material inside.  My husband bought some very fine mesh stainless steel that I think will work great for packing the plant materials.  I just picked up a roll of fiberfrax for cheap - I bought a yard of it to try out and it's really good stuff.  I've been experimenting with making covers for flasks and other glassware using oil soak sheets I got at the hardware store and the fabric they use for lining pot holders and ironing boards.  Amazing how much faster stuff starts when you put insulation on.

I've attached a picture of what one of the tanks looks like.

Seems like I could build a rack for it and run the glassware down the back side with insulation in between. 

We just bought some hexamine from a pyro vendor (not at auction) and the stuff is full of polymers or something that clogs up the filter big time.  Am fed up with junk chemicals!



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Vesp

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 02:48:07 AM »
What are the risks and whatever of just using a pressure cooker? I have a nice one I use for agar and other sterilization, but it seems like it could be used without modification for steam distillation. I could be wrong though, and it seems rather dangerous..
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hypnos

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2010, 04:09:29 AM »
yeah i too want to do some steam distallation in the near future, and i too thought a pressure cooker could be put to good use...

  that said,, can anyone, sedit,  maybe, tell me the MAIN problems i might encounter?

I figure that i could make a 'refluxing basket' to hang in the PC and then tap off the steam over the course of a few hours..... :P how

"wrong" can i get? Surely this is a pretty straight forward process?  surely...................??? anyone?
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salat

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2010, 09:22:10 AM »
Well this was attempt #3 so I've learned a little.  I'm still trying to buy an extractor bulb (cheapest I've seen so far is 50$) I'm a cheapskate.

hxxp://www.crucible.org/essential_oil_distiller_operation.html I used this site to give me some ideas when setting up the glassware.

First setup was using glass with rubber stoppers and putting the plant material in a tube.  Problem was lots of leakage and backflow (but did get nice amount of product from it).

2nd attempt was with a pressure cooker.   Pressure cookers are designed to go up to 15 psi.  Problems I had was not enough pressure buildup to send steam through hose.  So water built up in hose and went back into pressure cooker.  I had to carefully monitor it so it wouldn't overload (used the hole where the popup valve is for the psi gauge so was flying without a net). The pressure cooker can generate the right amount of steam, I was just afraid to let it go too far because it didn't have a relief valve.   And no way to refill it without stopping and letting the pressure relieve.

 I used a chromatography column to hold the plant material and had to use corks for the connections.  Didn't leak as bad as the first attempt but the connections were still a problem as was not having a relief valve - in hindsight I'd drill a 3rd hole and leave the relief in place.  Used a magnetic stir bar - don't know if that was needed or not but gave me warm fuzzies.  You would need to trash your pressure cooker - I'd recommend a trip to goodwill or whoever and get one that is aluminum since it is easier to drill than steel. You need a bigger outlet than the hole in a pressure cooker would allow.  My husband tapped one out at 1/4 nps.  (seems like chemistry is more plumbing than anything - we spend hours looking for enough pieces to make a setup - Christmas trees anyone?).

The glassware shown is my 3rd attempt and it worked like a charm.  I reconfigured it after the first go round and added a more efficient condenser on the downflow.  Insulation which isn't shown in the picture is key.  Once I got the insulation on I was amazed at how fast the stuff comes over.  There's a fine line to walk in the glass setup where the water and material are in the same flask - you don't want so much water as to be boiling the mixture like soup, rather just enough water to be steaming the material.  The funnel I used was really good because it didn't let any steam to backup into it and allowed me to control dropping water into the flask, but required constant monitoring to prevent drying out.  I stopped after running it most of the day because the material coming over wasn't cloudy any more.  Got two 500 ml flasks of mixed water/oil and whatever it is that makes it cloudy looking.  Used hot water to get the remnants out of the glassware - the stuff sticks.  Rinsed out the condensers etc with alcohol trying to recover as much oil as possible want one of those liquid-liquid extractors now too.  Think I would do better to spend the $ on the tank setup.  The glass setup is fine for smaller quantity stuff but wouldn't be good for big things.

Side note in case anyone is considering distilling peach pits or bitter almonds (amydalin) - there is a very poisonous gas (hydrogen cyanide I think) that is generated during the process so you'd need a good exhaust setup.  The new "cook" books don't mention it, but in the old chemistry book I read on volatile oils it mentions they exhausted it to the fire pit.

salat


« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 12:23:33 PM by Vesp »
Salat

Tsathoggua

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2010, 07:26:26 PM »
Not sure if those cyanogenic glycosides crack open with mere heat and water, but they quite definately do if the solution is acidic. Base will probably do it also.
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drone1240

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2010, 10:44:09 PM »
How we roll in da swamp!!!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 12:03:45 AM by drone1240 »
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salat

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2010, 10:57:24 PM »
http://books.google.com/books?id=h0FKAAAAMAAJ&dq=animal%20and%20vegetable%20fats%20and%20oils&pg=PA520#v=onepage&q=almond&f=false

Found it the book is called "A practical treatise on Animal and Vegetable Fats and Oils" on Google  - very good book on properties, preparation etc of various oils.

The oil is prepared in the following manner The press cakes of bitter almonds are ground then soaked about twenty four hours in twice their weight of water to which one third of their weight of salt has been added The whole is then submitted to distillation In distilling the hydrocyanic or prussic acid evaporates together with the crude oil As the acid is the most poisonous substance known special care must be exercised to prevent any vapors from escaping into the workroom This is best effected by hermetically fixing by means of a cork the lower end of the cooling pipe into a large bottle in which the oil and water can condense in the cork is also fitted a glass tube leading to a fire place for instance of a boiler.  The non condensed vapors of prussic acid escape through this tube into the fire place and are rendered innocuous by combustion

Almond oil being readily soluble in water distilling with indirect steam is absolutely necessary as direct distillation with water would yield aromatized water but no oil The oil in its crude state contains nearly 13 per cent of anhydrous hydrocyanic acid and is therefore exceedingly poisonous unless completely deprived of this substance It can be freed from a large portion of the acid by shaking with lime but completely so only by the following process Mix a solution of iron in a mixture of 5 parts of hydrochloric acid and 1 part of nitric acid with the oil add some lime water and stir thoroughly After resting for some time the mixture is rectified in the usual manner and is thus obtained free from every trace of prussic acid
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2010, 02:00:17 AM »
If doing large quantities, why not scrub with NaOH(aq), free cyanide isn't to be sniffed at.
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Vesp

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Re: Saturday night fun...
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2010, 02:39:02 AM »
The alligator is for eating yeah?
How are those?
Pretty common? Do you catch them yourself, or buy them like someone might go about getting a chicken or turkey?

That alligator made me laugh, not something I'd ever expect to see in this thread. Good stuff.
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