you make a lot of very good points and I am thankful for the feedback -  I will seriously consider a beginners section, as I would even benefit from that - when it comes to the ideology of 'nothing ventured, nothing gained' I am very much a noob.

so far with most of the questions I've had, I've asked another member via pm; The one time I did ask a question via the forum,(How does one prepare SOCl) it was superbly answered by no1uno, with a series of photos outlining the process. In fact, I think there should be a separate section for posts of this quality

I do wonder why there are 'child' boards? (with "Publications" in it!).

The publications are supposed to be a place to "double post" the really really good write-ups, such as the ones with lots of detail and pictures, good procedures, or something novel.  see more about it here: http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,363.0.html

Emphasis on this part:

Please PM me if you find think a post should be here and isn't already.
I'll try to be adding these as they form, but I'm sure I have missed a couple, and will continue to miss them, so it would greatly appreciated if you brought the really good ones to my attention via a PM.

It is supposed to act similiarly in nature to how sciencemadness does it. If anyone feels like finding (or posting) a few good ones that are floating around - I'd be happy to put them in that section, and turn them into a PDF. etc..

Now for the beginner section, since we don't intend to teach simple concepts in inorganic chemistry or step by step spoon feeding  - I think a way one can avoid this is make it so a minimal amount of posts is needed to view it. This sounds a little backwards (and it might be a bad idea) but I think it would help filter out the "I want 2 make drugz4 funn" type of people - as they would have to have posted, say - at least 10 posts in the other forums, introduced themselves, etc.

I would like feedback on the minimum of 10 posts for the beginner section idea - Its just something I came up on spot.

Also - since this has been discussed and many people have put in their opinions, I would appreciate it if everyone would vote again so we can see what everyone thinks about it - and also put in your reasons of why and why not.

As of posting this, the votes show as:
Yes     - 8 (44.4%)
I don't really care/Other (specify via comment)    - 3 (16.7%)
No    - 7 (38.9%)

considering this comment was made in a few posts above

I chose "Other", even though my vote is really 'No", merely to stress that this is a newbie that has voted "No"

it looks like it is a tie for yes and no.

In the coming days I will try to make a decision on this - but keep in mind it is easier to add a sub-forum than it is to get rid of one, and additionally The Den of Iniquity in the past has had more-so beginner posts - however, I can see how it would be highly undesirable to posts such things in that section.

Again, thanks for all the input from everyone.

I dont really care

as long as it dont turn into a meth mad house or SnB city

, How about making the beginner  section a whole heap of locked down sticky threads, with links to answear most if not all newbee questions (i think someone mentioned putting up links earlier in thread)

and a coupla quick question threads for those who need to ask a question

anyway just an idea

take care

There really are a lot of places for the newbs - they can read the hive, rhodium, the vespiary, sciencemadness, and all the other good resources involving google books, college videos, etc. They can also post in many places such as WD, drug-forums, buelight, WD, and smaller places such as the subforum on the shroomery involving pharm and chemistry.

It maybe impossible to make this place a great place for everyone without compromising quality and signal/noise.
 
I swear my opinion changes every time I read a new post in this thread! Just a tricky subject.
Glad I get all of the input though!

 

Good points. I'll have to seriously consider but for now I believe I am leaning towards the side of no beginners section, due to the fact that it seems like its opening the doors to a place we wouldn't want this site to end up.

From a Noobs perspective on this, and dreamer who looks ahead and tries to view the "big picture" rather than hoping for spoon feeding or instant gratification, Swim would support this awsome forum remaining just the way it is
While fully understanding what can happen when dreams turn into nightmares, there seems to be MANY resources available to assist those of us who know 1/100th of what many do bee's here do.
Swims take on this board is these guy's know their shit, and would much rather research and play in the field of trial and mostly error before hopping into the forums here and asking the type of thing that makes 4 mods say "oh Christ who let this FNG in"
Swim very strongly feels that any newbie with potential or true desire to learn will find a way to do so here with or without any newbie section..a great recent example is the Lab accidents thread. While not posted in a newbie labeled forum, a WizzNoob knows that's the exact type of thread to become very familiar with.
While many a mod, vet, admin, are helpful and want to help the cause, a good number can get annoyed with the "wrong" type of newbies, and babysitting gets very old fast, this isn't the place for newbies by and large Swim feels. Swim would also add, it isn't well "known" to very many noobs he strongly suspects.. that is very likely a good thing.  Swim forgets where and when, but a respected bee or admin here had mentioned to another respected bee to check this place out sometime, truth bee told The Wizz kind of snuck in to take a peek hehe, very glad swim did so
sure not in any type of rush to raise a post count anywhere just for the hell of it, better to keep swims mouth shut and learn a thing or two before posting tons. That's just swims humble opinion on the matter, as I know Vesp is putting much thought into it.  Awesome place ya got here btw bro, swim snuck in uninvited but does appreciate the place a lot.

What about going the other way with it and opening an Advanced Chemistry or Advanced Synthesis/Write-up section?

Sedit suggested using the beginners section as a sort of recycling bin for the less properly annotated/explained write-ups and the like, with the goal being to clear the main forum and make it easier to find the really good stuff...why not just move the really good stuff (as determined by member or staff consensus or something similar?) to its own subforum? The layout could even be exactly the same as has been proposed for the beginners section: stickied write-ups and (possibly even ? topic-specific) quick discussion threads. 

Just seems like it could be a lot less work to move the few really really exemplary write-ups and discussions around rather than constantly removing all the lesser stuff - while at the same time avoiding the issue of a newbie chemistry section reeling in a buncha sooper-k3wl k1ds who wanna be sooper-k3wl and makes teh sooper-k3wl dr00gs. bleh

Whaddya fink?

also, there are not enough beginners here to fill it. and that means the ones that are here will have to post alone in beginners not feeling allowed to post in the "advanced" when half the stuff aint too advanced anyway

This was actually tried before and didn't take flight - so I simply hid the forum. I'll bring it back into its existence; we're basically talking about the publications equivalent on sciencemadness, correct?

 Nice one Wizard still

I find not to many people seem apt to post full writeups anymore. It just don't seem like people put the effort into things that they did long ago.

Is elitism really such a bad thing? I have seen our forum be called "the vespiary, its a high brow drug forum from science madness members" ect ect or some shit like that. Call it elitism, call it snobishness, call us ass holes but NEVER call us retarded . Seriously, Elitism depends on who your talking to. The average low level meth cook is Elite to most of his dumb clients and freinds. At the same time there are so many who could run circles around ever member of this forum to such an extent that they would look at our best writeups with little more then a mild grin.

I like what we are and the direction we are heading. If folks think we are snobs by trying to improve ourselfs or by keeping trash out then so beit. Those who matter will more then likely not see us that way.

Then again, look at what passes for supposed "elitism."

Anyone here who has made MDMA from sassafras oil is already in an upper percentile, let alone those who understand why it works, or those who understand the why behind starting from something even more remote and unwatched.

There will always be cries of elitism for anything not appealing to the lowest common denominator and fulled indexed in Google on a public board.

The adults have to have the real, forward-progressing discussions somewhere. It is those discussions which keep the knowledge base advancing and the supply lines intact for everyone else. It is necessary that those discussions be had. It is not necessary that the Zoklet crowd be allowed to get in the middle and fantasize about being a big bad drug chemist in their parents' basement, all the while a few educated people try and say something productive amidst a sea of noise.

The resources are already out there for anyone to learn, as are the other public forums. There is nothing to be gained from duplicating what already adequately exists elsewhere. I see nothing to be gained from "how to cook drugz" appeal, especially as all of the easy precursors are now between hard and impossible to obtain.

What can the chemically-challenged cook hope to do OTC these days? GHB is about it. Starting from a Sandmeyer on GABA is about as easy as it gets. If that's a stretch, then the person is an accident waiting to happen.

The precursor situation alone dictates that anybody who has any chance of being successful (i.e. the person who can benefit from a quality board) will need to have a certain level of understanding and competency before going any further.

The nature of the discussions have changed, too. What used to be cutting edge and novel is now UTFSE material. Such is the nature of published science.

With time and effort being scarce, wouldn't it make more sense to devote more energy to cleanup and summarization? Wouldn't we be better off rounding up more first person hard data and picking out diamonds from the rough?

Perhaps just link the beginner's section to a stickied Vogel's and leave it at that.



By parallel, a similar discussion comes up from time to time on the cannabis and mushroom boards. A certain elitist/idealist sort of poster looks down on anything deemed "commercial", which usually means anything more than a repetitive PF-tek or small tub question. Another has yet to make one harvest but sidetracks threads far away from the beginner's section.

Bottom line, jars and cakes were done to death years ago. There is no more room for innovation there. The questions are repetitive, and its all UTFSE material. The only boundaries left to push are size, efficiency, and yield, and its nice to be able to have that discussion amongst peers who are of that skill level and that mindset.