Author Topic: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?  (Read 143 times)

LYC

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HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« on: June 08, 2010, 11:33:02 PM »
Who signs them? Do you think a lot of them that are being sold are compromised?  I'm pretty sure if the LEA can access them - so is it even very smart to get a site (such as this one?) being all HTTPS/SSL?

Here is some info on it http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/tutorial/
and i think this link is more relevant http://www.cypherpunks.to/~peter/T2_Key_Management.pdf

Ever heard of this law? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_Law_Enforcement_Act

Naf1

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2010, 11:54:43 PM »
You need to understand the concept of it first;

HTTP is insecure and is subject to man-in-the-middle and eavesdropping attacks which can let attackers gain access to website accounts and sensitive information. HTTPS is designed to withstand such attacks and is considered secure (with the exception of older deprecated versions of SSL).

The main idea of HTTPS is to create a secure channel over an insecure network. This ensures reasonable protection from eavesdroppers and man-in-the-middle attacks, provided that adequate cipher suites are used and that the server certificate is verified and trusted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Secure

So basically HTTP broadcasts whatever you are doing(is insecure), and for example someone could eavesdrop on your PM's and posts and what you were doing online and have access to your account if they know what they are doing. Whereas HTTPS encrypts the data sent between your computer and the website, so a third party cannot watch whats being sent(secure). More serious man in the middle attacks are also easily done (but not as relevant here). As you want your forum activities private and not broadcast to anyone who knows how to look. There would be ways around this like capturing the data and cracking the cypher at a later date, but this is not easily done! Not even for LEO, so if you had the choice you would be crazy not to pick HTTPS. This is not always the ultimate choice, as you said anyone can get a certificate for $$$ but if you trust the certificate (say Vesp created it and said use this) and you told your browser you trusted it, would work very well. And would upgrade from an insecure network to a secure network! Even without telling your browser to trust the certificate, heres what happens when I surf to a site I made with HTTPS and double click the padlock in firefox;

Connection Encrypted; High-Grade Encryption (AES-256 256 bit)
The page you are viewing was encrypted before transmitted over the internet.
Encryption makes it difficult for unauthorized people to view information traveling between computers. It is therefore very unlikely that anyone read this page as it traveled across the network.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 11:59:56 PM by Naf1 »

marakov

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2010, 01:04:09 AM »
You need to understand the concept of it first;

HTTP is insecure and is subject to man-in-the-middle and eavesdropping attacks which can let attackers gain access to website accounts and sensitive information. HTTPS is designed to withstand such attacks and is considered secure (with the exception of older deprecated versions of SSL).

The main idea of HTTPS is to create a secure channel over an insecure network. This ensures reasonable protection from eavesdroppers and man-in-the-middle attacks, provided that adequate cipher suites are used and that the server certificate is verified and trusted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Secure

So basically HTTP broadcasts whatever you are doing(is insecure), and for example someone could eavesdrop on your PM's and posts and what you were doing online and have access to your account if they know what they are doing. Whereas HTTPS encrypts the data sent between your computer and the website, so a third party cannot watch whats being sent(secure). More serious man in the middle attacks are also easily done (but not as relevant here). As you want your forum activities private and not broadcast to anyone who knows how to look. There would be ways around this like capturing the data and cracking the cypher at a later date, but this is not easily done! Not even for LEO, so if you had the choice you would be crazy not to pick HTTPS. This is not always the ultimate choice, as you said anyone can get a certificate for $$$ but if you trust the certificate (say Vesp created it and said use this) and you told your browser you trusted it, would work very well. And would upgrade from an insecure network to a secure network! Even without telling your browser to trust the certificate, heres what happens when I surf to a site I made with HTTPS and double click the padlock in firefox;

Connection Encrypted; High-Grade Encryption (AES-256 256 bit)
The page you are viewing was encrypted before transmitted over the internet.
Encryption makes it difficult for unauthorized people to view information traveling between computers. It is therefore very unlikely that anyone read this page as it traveled across the network.

I have conducted MITM with Ettercap. It is real and it is easy. Even self signed SSL is better than nothing. Just like S** M**. Vesp talked about this site I will send you a PM. HTTPS needs to be done soon. It does not have to cost anyone more monies.

Vesp

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2010, 01:19:40 AM »
Quote
and that the server certificate is verified and trusted.
Well, if it is verified, wouldn't that mean that someone looked at it? If so -- why wouldn't it be stored? And if it is... it sounds like LEA could easily obtain it, yes?  then the content being sent will be decrypted with out any problem as they would have the key? Don't browsers also have to know the key? I don't know.. I don't know much about this but from what I heard it does sound like it may not actually be all that secure from big brother and talented people with resources.

It sounds like an unverified self signed one would be better, no?

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Naf1

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2010, 01:42:18 AM »
Thats the problem LEO and talented people have open access to the info now, as it just flows back and forth unencrypted. And they can just start reading(if they know what they are doing), hence why it is unsecure. I do admit if you wanted a foolproof way to get around LEO nowadays, you need to invent another internet that does not let them have extra powers. Say for example you were under surveillance, at the moment LEO could easily track everything you do on here as it is insecure it is not even trying to hide the info atm. Whereas HTTPS tries and encrypts using AES-256 bit encryption, this is the encryption the Government uses for confidiential documents. 

"The U.S. government has adopted the AES encryption algorithm as standard for storing all of its own confidential information, the developer notes."

It does not matter who has certificates (dont worry about that bit), as all you need is a certificate. Then the people connecting tell their browsers just once to trust Vesps certificate. No one else's just the one certificate Vesp gets, which will make sure their connection to the Vespiary is encrypted and not readable by anyone (without some serious cracking). Once encrypted, LEO will have as hard a time as anyone else cracking the encryption. It can be done, but is not easy and would even give LEO a real hard time, it would be nearly impossible for anyone but some of the leading government agencies and the inevitable one in a million computer freak to do this.

Wizard X

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2010, 01:51:58 AM »
I have created self-signed HTTPS certificates for both WD sites. If you like I can generate one for this site?
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Vesp

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2010, 02:13:14 AM »
How is it installed? I haven't look into it -- but I believe the forum, SMF - has issues with being fully in HTTPS -- I could be wrong? Did you deal with having SMF work under HTTPS on WD? If there were any problems, how were they solved?
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Wizard X

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2010, 04:56:56 AM »
How is it installed? I haven't look into it -- but I believe the forum, SMF - has issues with being fully in HTTPS -- I could be wrong? Did you deal with having SMF work under HTTPS on WD? If there were any problems, how were they solved?


Installing an SSL cert is via your host admin CPanel.There you should be able to upload, or create, an SSL cert for the server. This WILL NOT, and should not affect SMF.

ChesireCat uploaded the SMF forum PHP software and I assisted.

WD HTTP: http://www.wetdreams.ws/forum/index.php goes directly to HTTPS now as configure by server.
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nk40ouvm

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2010, 05:22:55 AM »
I would be surprised if SMF has problems running over https. Most web software works the same whether or not the protocol uses encryption. Did you read that SMF has such problems somewhere? I didn't find anything with a few minutes of web searching.

Even if you use a self-signed certificate you will need a dedicated IP address. A shared host will usually charge extra for this, though I'd be suspicious of a host who wanted more than $25/year for it*. I do not think there is any upside from buying a "real" cert for protecting a message board. The certificate vendors are supposed to validate the identity of the organization they issue certificates to, so that (for example) a certificate that claims to validate a bank was really issued to a representative of that bank and not a scammer. But there is no utility to identity-validation for a site like this. The only downside of a self-signed cert is that it will raise browser warnings that may scare off people who don't understand the meaning.

It is true that strong encryption is not a privacy panacea, not because it is breakable by any known technique but because there are ways to bypass it (tap your keyboard to record passwords and conversations, get a warrant to siphon information from the site host's hard drives, lock you up and torture you for information in the name of national security...). But properly implemented, it does require a snoop (whether a government or a lesser criminal) to expend more effort, and become more noticeable, to get at electronically stored and transmitted information. To put it another way, even bank vaults have been stolen from, but not nearly so frequently as cars with windows rolled down.

Another good reason to use encryption for even the most innocent activities is that it frustrates government weasels who are used to scanning internet traffic as a matter of course. The NSA did it without regard for the law. Their counterpart weasels in the UK are apparently concerned that the arms race between record companies and pirates will lead to an explosion in crypto use, making it much harder to inspect internet traffic. I hope they all have a good long cry about it and one day I can watch the video on Wikileaks.

Encryption isn't just for email and web sites. Phil Zimmerman, creator of PGP, has more recently developed a secure protocol for VOIP telephone conversations called ZRTP, and implemented it in Zfone software for PCs. Even more exciting, a new product called RedPhone implements ZRTP on Android smartphones, so you can have a secure phone in the actual form of a phone instead of a PC. Now it is true that Skype also claims to encrypt all communications, but unlike these ZRTP implementations they do not publish source code. That means that the Skype implementation could have flaws or deliberate back doors built in, and indeed there is substantial circumstantial evidence that they've assisted law enforcement in the past. I would guess that ZRTP implementations for iPhone and other smartphones will come along too, and in the long run all mobile phones are probably going to be smartphones. Since ZRTP is just a protocol riding on top of the telecom networks, there is nothing that CALEA or comparable legislation outside the United States can do to compromise the security of these calls.

*Maybe not true anymore. IPv4 address space is running out, so these addresses may be dearer now.

Vesp

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2010, 06:18:08 AM »
Quote
Did you read that SMF has such problems somewhere?
I did, but it was brief -- just something I wanted to be sure of, but that is good to hear there has not been any problems.

One thing that interests me is how SM has both HTTPS and HTTP with the same content-- would there be any point to that on this site, assuming it is a certified certificate?

Excellent, thank you for all the help! I am going to get HTTPS fairly soon - I think I am going to switch to hostingmonster - or whatever it is called, since it is cheap, ~180 for hosting + HTTPS/SSL + dedicated IP.. and still offers more then the current host, and I have heard good things about it.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 06:19:53 AM by Vesp »
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Wizard X

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2010, 06:42:17 AM »
Quote
Did you read that SMF has such problems somewhere?
I did, but it was brief -- just something I wanted to be sure of, but that is good to hear there has not been any problems.

One thing that interests me is how SM has both HTTPS and HTTP with the same content-- would there be any point to that on this site, assuming it is a certified certificate?

Excellent, thank you for all the help! I am going to get HTTPS fairly soon - I think I am going to switch to hostingmonster - or whatever it is called, since it is cheap, ~180 for hosting + HTTPS/SSL + dedicated IP.. and still offers more then the current host, and I have heard good things about it.

SM has issues with HTTPS. The XMB forum software needs to be reconfigured for HTTPS.

https://sciencemadness.org/talk/ is encrypted, ALL links shown by th XMB forum software ARE HTTP. THIS GIVES MEMBERS FALSE SECURITY.
Albert Einstein - "Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds."

Vesp

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2010, 06:45:12 AM »
Ah, but what about this?
https://sciencemadness.org/whisper/ -- I thought that was the good one?

That is what I was referring too -- might this site want HTTPS and HTTP? have a http://.www.thevespiary.org/talk and a  https://.www.thevespiary.org/whisper (so to speak) as well? I assume you just copy and paste the forum content and have it link to the same database.. probably very easy.

I am not sure if some members have a reason to want to also use HTTP vs just using HTTPS - so I figured I'd ask.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 06:48:11 AM by Vesp »
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Wizard X

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2010, 10:26:16 AM »
Ah, but what about this?
https://sciencemadness.org/whisper/ -- I thought that was the good one?

That is what I was referring too -- might this site want HTTPS and HTTP? have a http://.www.thevespiary.org/talk and a  https://.www.thevespiary.org/whisper (so to speak) as well? I assume you just copy and paste the forum content and have it link to the same database.. probably very easy.

I am not sure if some members have a reason to want to also use HTTP vs just using HTTPS - so I figured I'd ask.

Just use HTTPS.
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mumbles

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2010, 11:38:17 AM »
HTTPS should take priority over HTTP any day. If someone 'chooses' http its because they don't know the difference.

nk40ouvm

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2010, 04:04:25 PM »
Actually SM supports both HTTP and HTTPS in order to accommodate users reading it via web translation software. Google Translate, systransoft, etc. don't support HTTPS. I can read LambdaSyn much more easily than the Hyperlab, not because I'm fluent in German but because Hyperlab is HTTPS-only and very cumbersome to copy-and-paste one page at a time into Gooogle Translate.

It used to be that SM worked fine with https://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/ as well as http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/. Now, as WizardX mentioned, you will see HTTP links if you use https://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/ instead of https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/. This change happened after an XMB upgrade. When Polverone reported the new HTTPS behavior to the XMB developers they were surprised that the old way ever worked: XMB has always been written with a unique URL prefix to the forum in mind.

The /whisper/ URL runs a second identical copy of XMB, pointing to the same database as /talk/, with the only difference that it is configured with the /whisper/ prefix. This way both HTTPS and HTTP can be used to access the forum.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 04:15:14 PM by nk40ouvm »

Dongle

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2010, 03:42:09 PM »
Here's how to creat a self-signed SSL Cert:

http://www.akadia.com/services/ssh_test_certificate.html

mumbles

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2010, 02:54:11 PM »
Actually SM supports both HTTP and HTTPS in order to accommodate users reading it via web translation software. Google Translate, systransoft, etc. don't support HTTPS. I can read LambdaSyn much more easily than the Hyperlab, not because I'm fluent in German but because Hyperlab is HTTPS-only and very cumbersome to copy-and-paste one page at a time into Gooogle Translate.
Ah so thats why the hyperlab remains a mystery to me. Its a shame because there is really good stuff in there, I just don't speak the language and the translators can't access it. So copy and paste remains the only alternative??

nk40ouvm

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2010, 05:00:36 PM »
Over at WD shroomedalice has downloaded a bunch of hyperlab and started a project to make it available in translation. I've considered doing similar. But if you're just browsing new threads on Hyperlab, copy + paste is pretty much the only way.

Vesp

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Re: HTTPS/SSL bullshit?
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2010, 01:49:04 AM »
Would there be a way to get it so a server can view the pages and redirect it as only HTTP, possibly?
I have no idea how to do it, as I am no computer/internet expert, but it would seem to me that somehow you could find or write a program that would allow HTTPS to be decrypted and than have it sent on its way as only HTTP.. this would work sort of like a proxy, I suppose? I assume if browsers can decrypted with a card, it couldn't be that hard to get it so other programs could except and use its SSL certificate as well?
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