Author Topic: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?  (Read 214 times)

digemlo

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Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« on: July 27, 2010, 05:36:53 PM »
Vanillin is easily brominated by Br2 to give 5-Br-vanillin in good yield. Ethoxylation of the resultant compound has been attempted numerous times via reaction with quantitative and 1.3 equivalents of Na/KOH in EtOH and freshly distilled EtBr or gaseous EtBr generated via dripping H2SO4/EtOH onto a saturated solution of NaBr in H2O. The upon dissolution of the substrate, a whitish precipitate always forms and does not go back into solution, despite heavy stirring and attempts with mild heating.

The reaction workup consists of diluting the reaction matrix with basic water in order to precipitate the non-polar product, but this always fails.

Ethoxylation was attempted on vanillin once preceding the bromination, but this method was abandoned due to the directing effects of the ethoxy group versus the phenol group: http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tma2.vanillin.html

Eugenol may be another viable starting material, but the reaction with bromine, which requires a phenol moiety to add to the correct position of the ring, cannot be carried out without first doing something about that allyl chain. Amination has been considered for the first step, but then the reaction with EtBr is not feasible (the amine will react instead of the phenol). (Pseudo)Nitrosation is being considered, but there is major concern that the double bond behind the nitro group will just react with the EtBr.

Input is greatly appreciated.

Vanadium

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2010, 09:56:48 PM »
I've always thought it would be interesting to see the reaction between the nitromethane condensation product with 5-hydroxy vanillin and dimethyl sulfate. An easy route to TMA?

Sedit

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2010, 10:21:09 PM »
No you wouldn't get TMA you would get the PEA form of it. This has already been talked about here.

You will get very little EtBr by dripping H2SO4 and EtOH onto NaBr solution if any. More then likely your just going to generate alot of Br2.

Have you tested the white precipitate to see if its Sodium or Pottasium bromide?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 10:23:30 PM by Sedit »
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digemlo

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2010, 06:06:15 AM »

You will get very little EtBr by dripping H2SO4 and EtOH onto NaBr solution if any. More then likely your just going to generate alot of Br2.
Ethanol was substituted for methanol in a tried-and-true Sciencemadness procedure for the dimethylation of hydroquinone. Methanol was attempted once.
Have you tested the white precipitate to see if its Sodium or Pottasium bromide?

No, but here is a quote from this: http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/mmda.mescaline.html

"Sodium hydroxide, 61.2 grams (1.53 mol), was dissolved in 750 ml of water in a 2000ml round-bottomed flask. To the still-warm solution was added 50.0g (0.217 mol) of 5-bromovanillin and 0.5 g of Cu powder. A white solid precipitated. The reaction mixture was refluxed vigorously under N2 and with magnetic stirring. The color changed gradually from yellow to green to dark green and, after ca 6 hours, all solid material was dissolved."

They're not lying. It takes extensive heating/stirring to dissolve the precipitate. Acetone, MeOH, and EtOH were all used as solvents in the reactions attempted, but shouldn't the vanillin derivative be more soluble in any of those than water?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 06:09:12 AM by digemlo »

Vanadium

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2010, 04:01:51 AM »
No, Sedit,

beta-phenylnitroethane reacts with dimethylcarbonate to yield alpha-methyl, beta-phenylnitroethane. A common error among less-informed chemists is that amphetamines can be made from the Henry reaction with nitromethane (they can't, you need nitroethane); but with this process it would be much more practical to make phenylisopropylamines from reaction with nitromethane and DMC. 2 immediately obvious options:
1) Partial reduction of the olefin followed by reaction with DMC. Then reduction of the nitro group. Hydrogenation by 2 different methods should be able to achieve both tasks (perhaps even a simultaneous approach could be worked out since one would likely be working with pressure, which is how DMC usually reacts--massive potential here provided someone can assure me that in nitroalkene reductions, the olefin is targeted first, or that a practical hydrogenation reaction exists that would allow that to occur).
2) Full reduction to the ethylamine, then oxidation to the nitroethane, reaction with DMC, and reduction back to the amine (the interconversion between the 2 oxidation stages of the nitrogen can be nearly quantitative with several OTC reagents, making this process particularly useful although more tedious).

I'm still seeing if it's possible to do this with the alkene alone but that was the point I was trying to get across.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 04:04:39 AM by Vanadium »

Quantum Dude

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2010, 04:42:05 AM »
No, Sedit,

beta-phenylnitroethane reacts with dimethylcarbonate to yield alpha-methyl, beta-phenylnitroethane

Please give a reference for this claim. Thanks. BTW, your post is a verbatim copy of a post made at Zoklet

http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showpost.php?p=703394&postcount=6
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 05:02:48 AM by Quantum Dude »

Sedit

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2010, 05:10:10 AM »
No, Sedit,

beta-phenylnitroethane reacts with dimethylcarbonate to yield alpha-methyl, beta-phenylnitroethane. A common error among less-informed chemists is that amphetamines can be made from the Henry reaction with nitromethane (they can't, you need nitroethane);

Im abit confused but it appears along the same lines as what I was stating before. You can not make TMA thru the Henry reaction with MeNO2. Did I miss something?

Wait are you suggesting methylating the nitrostyrene with DMC?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 05:14:36 AM by Sedit »
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
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digemlo

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2010, 02:16:33 PM »
Guys, not to interrupt, but this note may be significant:

-one major concern in the reactions with vanillin is the disproportionation of the benzaldehyde to the benzoic acid. I'm too lazy to find a reference for it right now but cannizzaro is a potential risk with vanillin and its derivatives.





Once, on this forum, someone posted links to some Hyperlab writeups for "IPOMA" and "EOMA", two vanillin/eugenol derivates with isopropoxy and ethoxy groups substituted on the free phenol. I've since deleted my copies of the PDFs describing each and cannot access hyperlab; can anybody provide the writeups?

Sedit

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2010, 02:20:30 PM »
I believe the documents your looking for are works of Demonic over at the hyperlab if that helps any.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

digemlo

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2010, 05:26:39 PM »
I believe the documents your looking for are works of Demonic over at the hyperlab if that helps any.
Found; thanks.

Vanadium

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2010, 08:55:37 PM »
Q_D: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=97788&aid=3247

Sedit, the suggestion is to reduce the nitroalkene and alkylate the nitronate. So far as I know, this is less practical than desired but there may be a way to the amphetamine using something akin to this route.

Quantum Dude

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2010, 10:44:49 PM »
Q_D: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=97788&aid=3247



Thanks Vanadium. Nice read although I must say that generating the nitronate from the nitroalkane might not be a walk in the park according to those experimental parameters.

Vanadium

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2010, 12:31:09 AM »
Q_D: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=97788&aid=3247



Like I said, this is less practical than desired but assuming a grignard reagent can substitute for the base this may become a fairly OTC (though by no means easy) way to a few desired amphetamines. What no dry ice/acetone for you Q_D? :D
Thanks Vanadium. Nice read although I must say that generating the nitronate from the nitroalkane might not be a walk in the park according to those experimental parameters.

Quantum Dude

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2010, 01:16:03 AM »
What no dry ice/acetone for you Q_D? :D
I could have swore that the authors are reporting that the nitronate must be prepared at - 90 oC or lower otherwise the reaction is not well defined for higher temperature. An acetone/CO2 will provide a temperature down to - 78 oC. Fairly close but who knows ? 8)

digemlo

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2010, 09:04:54 AM »
eugenol + KOH -->
3-MeO-4-NaO-phenyl-2-OH-propane + X2 -->
3-MeO-4-NaO-5-X-phenyl-2-OH-propane + EtBr -->
3-MeO-4-EtO-5-X-phenyl-2-OH-propane + KMnO4 or dichromate -->
(blah blah) ketone + hexamine --> titular/desired compound

The main concerns is in the first reaction, as the substituted allylbenzene may be labile to a rearrangement from a 2-substituted phenylpropane to a 1-substituted isomer.

Any thoughts/input/suggestions?

Vanadium

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2010, 07:12:31 PM »
An alkene hydration using base? Tell me moar!

digemlo

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Re: Eugenol/Vanillin to 5-Br-4-EtO-3-MeO-phenyl(ethyl/propyl)amine?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2010, 02:38:17 PM »
Ahh whoops haha. First add HX, then base.