Author Topic: Total MDMA synthesis:short Q&A,suggestions and ideas  (Read 450 times)

Oerlikon

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Total MDMA synthesis:short Q&A,suggestions and ideas
« on: August 01, 2010, 09:35:50 PM »
total MDMA synthesis, short questions suggestions and ideas

Since mine biggest problem for now was solved with short and simple answer/link I had idea to help others too...
This topic sounded like a good idea to put many short but important Q&A under one thread,
not scattered all over the place.

For example:

1.)Can you use xylene instead of toluene, diethyl ether or chloroform or trichloro etilene instead of DCM; and denat. EtOh instead of MeOH
in ALL steps and same amount in MDMA.HCl production!?
2.)Can you use Hg(NO3)2 instead of HgCl2 safely in Al/Hg reductive amination in EtOH as reaction medium?!
In SWIM recent experience combining Hg that reacted with HNO3 and than with EtOH results in nasty Hg fulminate!
3.)Is Bright Star Wacker p-benzo,DMF & PdCl2 still golden standard of there has been invented something better in
last few years with same ingredients !? What do you need to watch on during the first time Wecker,what kind of reaction
container is best (large glass, flask, flask with condenser ect.)
how fast you need to add safrole ect...any useful tips & tricks
4.)Is distilling sassafras oil really necessary since you get all kind of crap in Wecker anyway!?
5.)Is there some specific brand of Al foil on European market instead of famous "Reynolds heavy duty".
How thick is that foil actually!? What other brands shown to be good!?What are GOOD alternatives!?
6.)How soluble is MDP-2-P in different solvents you use during synthesis?!

Hope you got an idea and have at least some answers ready!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 10:49:06 PM by Oerlikon »
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Vesp

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Re: Total MDMA synthesis:short Q&A,suggestions and ideas
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2010, 10:39:09 PM »
Rules: http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,369.msg3325.html#msg3325
Short Questions Thread: http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,9.0.html

Emphasis on Rules:
  *Don't use SWIM or any variation of it. There are better ways to  explain how a procedure was performed without claiming you or SWIM has done it.
  *When making a new thread in Drug Synthesis & Extraction, Other Chemistry, and Pharmacology - and preferably others if applicable show that you have researched, and have searched here on the site by providing links and references of relevant information, or at least mention how you cannot find any detail related to the subject in which you are posting.


Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to making threads, asking for advice, etc - However, you need to show that you have done your own research, why you think it will work or fear that it may not, or how the possible problems could be remedied.

Also - I don't think there needs to be a "Short Questions Thread" for a specific molecule. There is so much information on MDMA synthesis, and other reactions that relate to it.

I like to think we have the same policies as sciencemadness when it comes to posts. This post would not be accepted there since you're essentially asking to be spoon fed.

PS. You can figure out the thickness of the Al foil by the surface area of it, its density, and its mass, also I do believe there is a calculator some where on the internet for just this sort of thing.

Edit: hxxp://zapatopi.net/afdb/foilthickness.html there....
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 11:01:30 PM by Vesp »
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Oerlikon

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Re: Total MDMA synthesis:short Q&A,suggestions and ideas
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2010, 11:02:30 PM »
You got me wrong...Sorry for breaking rules,will try not to do it again!

Of course that I did some research!
I just gave few example of questions,I know some of them...

I know that you can use EtOH instead of MeOH,but I am not sure for others.
For example, no one said anything about danger of combining Hg-nitrate and EtOH, while some
synthesis use it...I think this is pretty darn important but too small to make a thread out of it!
Most people are totally unaware of this potentially deadly situation!

Of course I can figure out thickness of the foil by these parameters...
Here: http://zapatopi.net/afdb/foilthickness.html

But main problem is that I can't get that specific brand and tipe of Al foil,
since it is not being sold here.
I am sure most guys from Europe have same problem and some probably came with solution,
so why not to share it with other!?
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Vesp

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Re: Total MDMA synthesis:short Q&A,suggestions and ideas
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2010, 04:01:49 AM »
Quote
You got me wrong...
I understand where you are coming from, but I just don't feel that this thread is all that great of an idea, especially for the forum.  I believe this would encourage spoon feeding, and eventual other Q&A threads about ALL the other drugs, such as problem shooting with making meth, etc.  which would really invite the newbies and kewls to participate in discussion causing the signal to noise ratio to go up - which is exactly what we do not want to happen.
I personally feel that this site isn't a "How to make drugs, here are the steps" website at all - but instead of one that allows for the discussion of the chemistry, biology, and other science  that surround such subjects.


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Oerlikon

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Re: Total MDMA synthesis:short Q&A,suggestions and ideas
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2010, 06:36:51 AM »
You are right...it is hard to see someone having rational arguments novadays istead of playing "respect my authorita'"! Feel free to delet this thread but...
Still,what abbout Reynolds supstitute and safety of Hg-nitrate in EtOH?!
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jon

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Re: Total MDMA synthesis:short Q&A,suggestions and ideas
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2010, 12:33:41 PM »
any soluble mercury salt works
as to the thickness of aluminum foil contact the manufacturers.

sassa

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Re: Total MDMA synthesis:short Q&A,suggestions and ideas
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2010, 03:32:38 PM »
From my experience on that questions:
1.Toulene works better to me than xylene and dcm on extractions along the wacker and the Al/Hg reductive aminations.Seems to separate more easy and with less tendence to make emulsions.It´s cheaper than xylene and dcm too an more easy to get on European Market.It´s posible to distill it from paint disolvents if you really go from scratch.To me:1º TOLUENE,2º XYLENE,3ºDCM(i don´t like it nothing).
   About methanol and ethanol,proved AL/HG with denaturated etanol 96% and methanol and runs exactly the same using methylamine(not proved on nitromethane variation).Of course, denaturated etanol on europe it WAY MORE AVAILABLE than methanol.You can get it on any drugstore.farmacy.Not the same withmethanol.
    Not proved on the WACKER.Proved few times the wacker with methanol,and have to say yields of ketone are a little lower than using DMF. SO,from my experience:
     *WACKER:1º DMF(not easy to get on EUROPE),2ª methanol(easy to get but to me few less yields).Not proved wacker with ethanol.
     *AL/Hg reductive amination with methylamine: methanol/den. ethanol same results.Get what it´s easy and cheaper(EThanol of course).

2. Don´t have much info about Hg salts.Ever uses HgCl2 because it´s easy to get to me from my chemical suplier and cheap.

3.Bright Star´s wacker it´s the basic,but i like more the advises from Methyl,s Man on this reaction.My first wackers was a painfull because not filter the reaction after the 8 hours.This make a container full of spongy crap when you add the diluted HCL.My advices from my mistakess:
   -use DMF or methanol.To me better yields with DMF.
   -let stir the palladium first on the dmf or methanol 5-6 hours first.
   -add the rest(benzoquinone and water and let stir 1 hour o more better)
   -add the safrole with little solvent over 1 hour it´s slow enough
   -you can use and adition funnel for easy procedure,but worked the same using a pipete or a separationn funnel.Temp. don´t rise much over the safrole adition.I put a condenser over the flask to minimize solvent losses,but temp. goes up only to 40-45 2 hours.
   -never proved not distill sasaffras.It´s to easy to not to do it.It´s good to know exactly what quantity of safrol you are adding to the reaction(if you don´t know purity of your sasaffras oil).
    -filter the whole flask by gravity filtration.
   -Use 1,5 litre 10% hcl (no less concentrated)after the reaction and let stir on the flask(needs 2 liter one) until you see black oil moving arround the flask.If you stop it,will go the the bottom as a thick black layer.
  - get that oil USING TOLUENE..to me the better option.Of course it will go to the up side.
  -clean that toluene with 2-3 water washes.
  -clean with Naoh,...etc....
  -no need to dry it.distilling toulene make it for you.

4.There is no aluminium foil like the "Reynold HEavy Duty" on the European Market.Believe me.I was looking on many brands.I use to get it buying 3-4 rolls on an order from online drugstores from USA.It´s enough for a stupid number of batches for 30 euros.Aluminium pans are other options.Not proved.


   Hope to be usefull to you.Happy to see more european bees ;D ;D

jon

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Re: Total MDMA synthesis:short Q&A,suggestions and ideas
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 05:39:51 AM »
you's guys should start looking into pd acetate wackers with h2o2 it's clean, high yeilding and uses very little catalyst.
the only thing the solvent it seems like sterically hindered alcohols are the way to go.

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/wacker.improvement.html

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja00523a023

then there's a 1980 joc article i can't find to save my life

they use t-butanol and h2o2.

very clean process

akcom

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Re: Total MDMA synthesis:short Q&A,suggestions and ideas
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 05:27:01 PM »
jon, looking at their results they only achieved a ~50% yield of acetophenone from styrene.  Granted, the shorter reaction time seems nice, but I don't see any advantages beyond that.  Besides, what's a couple hours in the grand scheme of things?

dewittdale

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Re: Total MDMA synthesis:short Q&A,suggestions and ideas
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2010, 12:56:31 AM »
1) The only problem with xylene is the extra heat and time to strip.  I used analytical toluene and didn't worry about the thiophene residue problems with reagent and tech grade.  Obviously DCM being heavier than water presents problems with he stopcock cutoff. 

5) I always had problems with anything other than regular Reynolds wrap.  No cleaning necessary.  The HgCl solution took hold after 17 minutes.

6) MD-P-2-P at the thermometer stem area was washed for recycling with IPA

7) Reduction in a bed of celite mixed with methanol + IPA was quantitative.