Author Topic: Tramadol  (Read 426 times)

Vespula germanica

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2010, 09:13:09 AM »
I'm really sorry Sedit, I didn't get what you mean resp. what you tried to point out... :( Would you be so kind and explain it again?
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Enkidu

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2010, 10:07:39 AM »
(If I may translate..) He means that he, personally, never wanted to know the science behind tramodol (despite stating the contrary :D). He did, however, want science discussed as opposed to trip reports.

Vespula germanica

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2010, 10:53:49 PM »
Thanks for the translation! Fortunately I am able to discuss both the science and the reports.
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Sedit

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2010, 04:50:45 AM »
While Enkidu is almost correct I do not find the time to research things that tickle my own fancy anymore let alone study those which take a back burner in my thoughts such as this. I would however like to stear the conversation away from random trip reports of Tramadol use into something more akin to pharmacokinetics instead.

Understanding and discussing what it does inside ones body is much better suited for this area then understanding who like Tramadol and who does not.
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Oerlikon

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2010, 06:07:43 PM »
You are right Sedit,I just didn't want to unnecesarily open new topic on same thing under bioassay
but still thought it is worth sharing.
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Vespula germanica

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2010, 08:44:44 PM »
OK, then let me add the full references about which I spoke earlier:


María J. Garrido, Onintza Sayar, Cristina Segura, Javier Rapado, María Carmen Dios-Viéitez, María Jesús Renedo, Iñaki F. Trocóniz
"Pharmacokinetic/Pharmacodynamic Modeling of the Antinociceptive Effects of (+)-Tramadol in the Rat: Role of Cytochrome P450 2D Activity"
J Pharmacol Exp Ther 2003, 305:710-718
DOI: 10.1124/jpet.102.047779
Quote
In this study the role of cytochrome P450 2D (CYP2D) in the pharmacokinetic/pharmacodynamic relationship of (+)-tramadol [(+)-T] has been explored in rats. Male Wistar rats were infused with (+)-T in the absence of and during pretreatment with a reversible CYP2D inhibitor quinine (Q), determining plasma concentrations of Q, (+)-T, and (+)-O-demethyltramadol [(+)-M1], and measuring antinociception. Pharmacokinetics of (+)-M1, but not (+)-T, was affected by Q pretreatment: early after the start of (+)-T infusion, levels of (+)-M1 were significantly lower (P < 0.05). However, at later times during Q infusion those levels increased continuously, exceeding the values found in animals that did not receive the inhibitor. These results suggest that CYP2D is involved in the formation and elimination of (+)-M1. In fact, results from another experiment where (+)-M1 was given in the presence and in absence of Q showed that (+)-M1 elimination clearance (CLME0) was significantly lower (P < 0.05) in animals receiving Q. Inhibition of both (+)-M1 formation clearance (CLM10) and CLME0 were modeled by an inhibitory EMAX model, and the estimates (relative standard error) of the maximum degree of inhibition (EMAX) and IC50, plasma concentration of Q eliciting half of EMAX for CLM10 and CLME0, were 0.94 (0.04), 97 (0.51) ng/ml, and 48 (0.42) ng/ml, respectively. The modeling of the time course of antinociception showed that the contribution of (+)-T was negligible and (+)-M1 was responsible for the observed effects, which depend linearly on (+)-M1 effect site concentrations. Therefore, the CYP2D activity is a major determinant of the antinociception elicited after (+)-T administration.


Marta Valle, María J. Garrido, Juan M. Pavón, Rosario Calvo, Iñaki F. Trocóniz
"Pharmacokinetic-Pharmacodynamic Modeling of the Antinociceptive Effects of Main Active Metabolites of Tramadol, (+)-O-Desmethyltramadol and (?)-O-Desmethyltramadol, in Rats"
J Pharmacol Exp Ther 2000, 293:646-653
no DOI given
Quote
The pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of the two main metabolites of tramadol, (+)-O-desmethyltramadol and (?)-O-desmethyltramadol, were studied in rats. Pharmacodynamic endpoints evaluated were respiratory depression, measured as the change in arterial blood pCO2, pO2, and pH levels; and antinociception, measured by the tail-flick technique. The administration of 10 mg/kg (+)-O-desmethyltramadol in a 10-min i.v. infusion significantly altered pCO2, pO2, and pH values in comparison with baseline and lower-dose groups (P < .05). However, 2 mg/kg administered in a 10-min i.v. infusion was enough to achieve 100% antinociception without respiratory depression. Moreover, the ?-funaltrexamine pretreatment completely eliminated the antinociception of the 2-mg/kg dose, suggesting that such an effect is due to ?-opioid receptor activation. To describe and adequately characterize the in vivo antinociceptive effect of the drug, (+)-O-desmethyltramadol was given at different infusion rates of varying lengths (10–300 min). Pharmacokinetics was best described by a two-compartmental model. The time course of response was described using an effect compartment associated with a linear pharmacodynamic model. The estimates of the slope of the effect versus concentration relationship were significantly decreased (P < .05) as the length of infusion was increased, suggesting the development of tolerance. Doses of up to 8 mg/kg (?)-O-desmethyltramadol given in 10-min i.v. infusion did not elicit either antinociception in the tail-flick test or respiratory effects. These in vivo results are in accordance with the opiate and nonopiate properties reported for these compounds in several in vitro studies.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 08:46:41 PM by Vespula germanica »
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hypnos

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2010, 09:47:50 AM »
  swih recently tried Oerlikons mixture and their experience parallels this 
Quote
I discovered something simple yet amazing...

After my Tramadol source run low I decided to take 50mg of Dimenhydrinate with 70-80% of my average dose of Tramadol.
IT WAS AMAZING!!!

There was heavy nod and oncosious "body melting"/OBE experience.
Experience is much more like real-deal opiates and less speedy than pure Tram
and nods are much more stoning(nothingness) than trippy as ussual.

Sleep was great,effects lasting full 24h (lets say that last 6h were kind'a afterglow.)
and depression that follows few days after 5-HT system stimulation was lower than usual.

  Now the REAL question I see in this thread IS "why" this particular combination of drugs combine to act this way

  Swih has had 2 very pleasnt experiences with combinations of 2-300mg of well chewed tramal + 100mg of Dimenhydrinate,,,and yes the difference is PROFOUND!!!
 

   google Dimenhydrinate and consider what possible ways the body together with

 (or maybe not!) some tramal might "make"  I mean really, look at Dimenhydrinate and think about how that molecule could be adjusted, particularly in vivo

 Unfortunately  I dont think the members here have the abilities to do so, so currently the "reason" behind these effects are some what of a mystery..maybe....

   and maybe this thead should be in the 'Bioassy' section from the start...however,,this is the 'pharmacology' section, and the drugs being discussed ARE easily obtained "Pharmaceuticals"

 I dont know ,, this thread has been kind of interesting, and sometime its very difficult to know 'exactly where' to begin a thread such as this....its not always that easy to decide 'where' to post'

  BUT the effects ARE as stated-moderately powerful....check out the Dimenhydrinate and its cousins....e.g.

 
Quote
^ Carr KD, Hiller JM, Simon EJ (February 1985). "Diphenhydramine potentiates narcotic but not endogenous opioid analgesia" ([dead link]). Neuropeptides 5 (4-6): 411–4. doi:10.1016/0143-4179(85)90041-1. PMID 2860599. http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/0143-4179(85)90041-1
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Oerlikon

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2010, 07:16:45 PM »
I wouldn't even report it here if it wasn't so damn GOOD, or as you said PROFOUND!!!
Tramadol can be veird on it's own,sometimes stoning and VERY tripy and sometimes stimulating,
but this combination is just wonderful soft nothingness.
Best thing I could compare it with standard dose of hydromorphone,but it lasts insanely longer,
lacking some analgesic qualities,no itching,and you can eat normally (unlike tramadol alone)

Probably best and easyest to get semi-legal high that will remain so for long time!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 08:16:49 PM by Oerlikon »
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hypnos

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2010, 01:54:06 AM »
"Probably best and easyest to get semi-legal high that will remain so for long time!"

  Agreed

  I stopped taking tramal because of its SSRI effects..............BUT...with the Dimenhydrinate  ( OTC travel sickness medication) it becomes a TOTALLY different animal
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Oerlikon

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2010, 04:04:37 PM »
Don't quite understand why people don't like SSRI effects...
Isn't that suppose to make you feel happy,sparkling and less misserable!?
At least that is what it does to me...

Anyway,how about mixing a bit of codeine with that combo!?
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hypnos

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2010, 01:16:19 PM »
I actually meant the SNRI (selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors) effects...sorry for the typo
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Oerlikon

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2010, 05:53:55 PM »
Allmost the same thing...only thing that can really bother you is probably lack of sleep!?
That's not problem too,since it helps counter respiratory depression
and makes you more aware of cozy nod and good mood !  ;D
You can sleep but not very deep. I just love to go to bed on that hing!

It's mine 100th post!
I am proud that I had so much to share with guys like you!  :D
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sloppy

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2010, 06:10:19 PM »
hm. Personally I love a 500mg dose and enjoy it immensely. Some love it, others hate it. I had noticed, however, that those who dont care for it usually had developed a liking for higher caliber painkillers, the heavy-duty stuff like fentanyl or heroin. I may be wrong, but that's what I noticed.

In particular, I once talked up tramadol so much to a buddy of mine that it prompted him to make his own online purchase once. The next time I saw him he was rather pissed off at me, he tossed me this bottle of 500 100mg pills at me and said I could "have that worthless fu#@ing shit."

Too say I was one happy person would be an understatement as I loved the stuff, but we figured later it must be his higher love for the fentanyl patch...could just be personal preference though...

Oerlikon

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2010, 10:14:34 PM »
I was amazed that this stuff is actually being sold via internet in USA freely!
Can it be bought in Europe (outside EU) via internet without prescription or is it just a fraud!?
I don't need commercials since it is against the rule,but is it possible!?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 10:39:59 PM by Oerlikon »
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jon

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2010, 07:10:33 AM »
i used to mix heroin with dimehydrinate so i would'nt puke up a storm.
it's common knowledge antihistamine/antichlolinergic shit and opiates pair up nicely.
maybe you found the one with the best effect.
yes it is very easy to buy tramadol check your pm.

hypnos

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2010, 11:09:00 AM »
Quote
maybe you found the one with the best effect.
yep could be,   tho as Oerlikeron man said,, and btw the way bro ,,I like your posts 8))
Quote
"Probably best and easyest to get semi-legal high that will remain so for long time!
;)

 However those weird SSRI/SNRI effects I dont like coz swih IS "speedy enough" and REALLY like his sleep :)

 benzos also go well with this combo,,even more laid back,,and 100mgs of dimehydrinate  improves things somewhat......and the dose of the 'benzo' need not be very much at all


 IMHO,,this combination is worth playing with,, :-\ :P 8)
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Oerlikon

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2010, 06:07:45 PM »
Quote
i used to mix heroin with dimehydrinate so i wouldn't puke up a storm.
;D ;D ;D

As one junky once said "someone put drug in my heroin!"
You sir keep to amaze and laugh me every time!

I know about opiate and antihistamine/antichlolinergic are nice combo,I even got those with morphine
while in hospital as standard procedure.
But Tramadol is far from normal opioid and found nothing on internet about combo but some doctor said to be cautious,
so I decided what the heck!
It wont kill me but make me sick or super high,luckily it was second one,beter than I imagined!  ;D
But there must be something extra about Tramadol and dimehydrinate than other opioids.
Hope someone knows more about it!?
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jon

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2010, 06:25:28 PM »
what? they are complaining about drugs in thier heroin?
well fuck them then

Oerlikon

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2010, 06:44:25 PM »
There is actually some opiate used in old pills against stomach ache
but when combined with heroin gives something extra but hooks you
much faster,I forgot which on it is,will post name when I find it.
But this is whole another topic...
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jon

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Re: Tramadol
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2010, 11:37:58 PM »
yeah cheese it's the heroin you give to kids so they think it's safe because you just snort it.
 your not a junkie until you shoot it. i remember that because most people were scared of heroin and it was a hard sell so it had to seem benign to get them started you know.
then you take all thier lunch money and call it a day.