Author Topic: Re: alkali metal catalyzed hydrolysis of DEET->diethylamine  (Read 29 times)

Enkidu

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Re: alkali metal catalyzed hydrolysis of DEET->diethylamine
« on: March 31, 2009, 08:31:29 AM »
Are you suggesting that we drop in a chunk of sodium and watch the beaker explode?

You are sadly confused... I have a copy of Wade on my bookshelf, and it doesn't say anything about alkali metal catalyzed hydrolysis.

1. NaOH has a sodium ion.
2. NaCl has a sodium ion.
3. If you make an aqueous solution of your amide and sodium chloride, the rate of the hydrolysis reaction will remain the same as only water.
4. If you make an aqueous solution of your amide and sodium hydroxide, the rate of reaction will increase.

What's different?


poisoninthestain

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Re: alkali metal catalyzed hydrolysis of DEET->diethylamine
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2009, 08:49:45 AM »
I'm done explaining myself to trolls like you who clearly have nothing better to do than argue and copy/paste. Don't hijack my threads and if you're gonna contribute on DEET->DEA do it. This needless bickering won't be tolerated on this forum.

The mods are watching.

Adios.


Enkidu

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Re: alkali metal catalyzed hydrolysis of DEET->diethylamine
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2009, 08:58:50 AM »
Wait, I don't think you stayed long enough to see my post in the other thread!! The mods are gonna get it. :(

Edit: LOL, it's late where I am. :D
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 09:00:33 AM by Enkidu »

Enkidu

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Re: alkali metal catalyzed hydrolysis of DEET->diethylamine
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2009, 09:23:21 AM »
copy/paste.

Yeah, I wrote all of that. I know that I wasted my time on you, but hopefully maybe someone else who comes along can learn something.

I can't remember exactly. It's all clearly outlined in my organics book.

If memory serves me right it's not nearly as effective as alkaline hydrolysis.

Something to do with equalibrium I think. I could be entirely wrong about that.

I just looked it up.

"typical [amide] hydrolysis conditions involve prolonged heating in 6M HCl or 40% aqueous NaOH"

You asked about about catalysts...not water. I am *aware* you need water for a hydrolysis. I have peformed hydrolyses on different amides both in lab and out.

Uh, I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit. (Unless you did all of those in the last three hours!)

« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 09:29:04 AM by Enkidu »

poisoninthestain

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Re: alkali metal catalyzed hydrolysis of DEET->diethylamine
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2009, 10:13:31 AM »
I hope you enjoyed your time here because the mods are going to be incredibly pissed when they see you're clogging the threads up, not to mention trolling/hijacking threads, and sending mean spiteful mail.

You said absolutely NOTHING constructive to this discussion on DEET->DEA ...nothing.

You left a breadcrumb path behind you for the mods to follow. I attempted a civil discussion, refuted you, and you still have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING better to do than argue like a child with name calling.

It has all been personal attacks on myself from the getgo ever since I somehow angered you with you're original rant(which i meant no offense)...but that does not mean you can troll threads.

Expect an IP ban by tomorrow morning because king mod is going to be furious.

 


« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 10:17:38 AM by poisoninthestain »

Enkidu

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Re: alkali metal catalyzed hydrolysis of DEET->diethylamine
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2009, 10:42:46 AM »
...alkali metal example =NaOH/ KOH,ect... the metal forms a positive cation and the hydroxide a negative anion(which donates a proton for the catalyst)...but i'm sure you knew that  ;)

Nope, I didn't. Cuz it's wrong. The hydroxide ion participates directly.

Correct! The metals are spectators after you balance the equation...but you can't get the hydroxide ions without the alkali metals present. You NEED the metal to ionize the hydroxide ions.

Wrong. Yes, the charges must balance. So? Any other ion can satisfy this qualification.

But it's incorrect to say that NaOH for example is not an alkali metal catalyst.

Wrong. This isn't organometallic chemistry. You need transition metal for that.

poisoninthestain

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Re: alkali metal catalyzed hydrolysis of DEET->diethylamine
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2009, 11:12:52 AM »
...again it's a trivial point about nomenclature. Nothing to do with  "amide hydrolysis of DEET", anyone else will tell you that.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V3B-498N3H1-XS&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6b02006c592e7f2c3baa9b36c53894a9

Effect of alkali metal catalysts on gasification of coal char


Michael J. Veraaa and Alexis T. Bella

aMaterials and Molecular Research Division, Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory; and Department of Chemical Engineering, University of California, Berkeley, California 94720, USA


Received 6 December 1976;  revised 30 September 1977.  Available online 11 August 2003.

Abstract
A detailed study has been conducted of the effects of LiCl, NaCl, KCl, RbCl, CsCl, KOH, and K2CO3 on the steam gasification of char produced from a western sub-bituminous coal. Initial screening of results revealed that K2CO3 had the greatest catalytic activity for a fixed cation content in the char. Subsequent experiments were performed to determine the effects of K2CO3 loading and gasification temperature on the rate of gasification and the product-gas composition. The results show that gasification rate is enhanced with increasing K2CO3 loading and reaction temperature. Increasing K2CO3 loading causes CO to be formed in preference to CO2 and H2 and suppresses the production of CH4. Increasing temperature also causes CO to be formed in preference to CO2 and H2 but enhances the production of CH4. These results are discussed in the light of a mechanism to explain the unique catalytic behaviour of K2CO3.

...there's your reference...again for the mods to see  ::)

...quote me where i say the hydroxide ion does not participate directly in exact words.

about the 2nd part about spectator ions...yeah you're right any other ion can satisfy the hydroxide...all of them just so happen to be alkali metals(what i was saying).

...and finally the last part. the reference I just linked to confirms that NaOH is an alkali metal catalyst in bold explicit print since you're whole argument has been based on nomenclature issues. It's like saying "no no it's not water it's dihydrogen monoxide!"...that's basically, in a nutshell, your whole argument.

Again, organometallic grignards are way off topic. Seriously. This is called "hijacking" a thread.

Enkidu

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Re: alkali metal catalyzed hydrolysis of DEET->diethylamine
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2009, 07:04:35 PM »
Don't worry, it can easily be split/deleted. I am quickly losing interest in this.

Ok, let me explain how alkali metals are actually the catalysts in this ... gasification.

Remember how I said that NaCl added to an aqueous solution will not increase the rate of the hydrolysis reaction? Well, in this case, NaCl DOES increase the rate of gassification. So the alkali metal is a catalyst! However, hydrolysis occurs through an entirely different mechanism. You can't say that any time that there is an alkali metal ion present, it's a catalyst.