Author Topic: finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone  (Read 168 times)

jon

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finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone
« on: April 28, 2011, 09:02:32 PM »
well a colleage was having a problem getting this reaction to go to completion using potassium iodide as the iodide source as oppsosed to sodium iodide as the iodide source and he pointed out rather correctly that sodium iodide is about 35-40 times more soluble in acetone than potassium iodide.
Hence, the reason sodium iodide is the preffered salt used in these reactions.
So i was put in a corner having to defend myself that yes it does indeed work with potassium iodide.
it requires good mechanical stirring (he shook his mix approx 15 minutes) the minimal time to run this reaction is 30 minutes if not more.
but i came across some good reading as to why this reactions proceeds that you all might find interesting,

http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/blog/?p=439

'the mystery of the finkelstein reaction'
and also a SM thread that sort of backs of the veracity of potassium iodide working in spite of it's lower solubiity in acetone.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12205

also it is important to point out that the relative rates of reaction for primary vs. secondary alkyl chlorides are 1 to .0179

electron donating groups like double bonds and aromatic rings increase this rate so benzyl chloride/bromide would react faster than it's alkyl counterpart.
in the case of methylenedioxyphenyl-2-bromopropane there may be some inductive effect considering the ring has two activating groups, i don't know.


the thread ends with an unintelligent noob question  don't they all?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 12:05:33 AM by jon »

atara

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Re: finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2011, 06:01:00 AM »
The weird thing is why the hell is it easier to find KI than NaI, when, in the case of practically every other salt of every anion, the sodium salt is way easier to get than the potassium salt? It doesn't make sense.

IIRC, NaOAc is also soluble in acetone, and it can be used with KI to make things go faster (a higher concentration of sodium ion means faster precipitation of chloride salt resp. Le Chatelier's principle).
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 06:03:30 AM by atara »

jon

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Re: finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2011, 08:50:08 PM »
i'm not sure i think it is because it's isolated in it's natural state as a potassium salt.
any modifications of this reaction are welcome in this thread for examle aromatic substitution with nai and catalyzed by cuppric iodide it is'nt a finkelstein reaction per se but the idea is similar.

Wizard X

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Albert Einstein - "Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds."

psychexplorer

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Re: finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2011, 04:09:05 AM »
The cynic in me would say it's because iodide is expensive and the molar weight of potassium is 1.7x that of sodium.

jon

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Re: finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2011, 04:35:25 AM »
no ash is what they call potash and iodine is made from kelp ask

Sedit

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Re: finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2011, 04:44:18 AM »
That is a point, how well does your colleage know chemistry? Hes not just trying to plug KI in for NaI is he?
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

jon

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Re: finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2011, 05:08:28 AM »
no i used ki with no problems at all, the only time i had problems was if i did'nt allow enough time for the reaction to procedd.
 i use liberal amounts of acetone i guess there's always a variable or two that can fuck things up.
he said he tested the salt it oxidzed to iodine and some vauge brown vapor (bromine)
just sounds like an incomplete rxn.

Sedit

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Re: finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2011, 05:13:32 AM »
Incomplete reaction is my point. Did this fellow just attempt to add the same weight of KI instead of NaI not paying attention to molar ratios of avalible iodine?
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

jon

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Re: finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2011, 05:18:07 AM »
no i don't think that was it.
he did'nt stir it mechanically, just shook it 15 minutes which is'nt enough time imho

fractal

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Re: finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2011, 05:56:35 AM »
I've used KI and had an almost complete conversion using 2-bromosafrole. Confirmed using TLC, slight spotting, shaken mechanically for 45min (probably could have left it on longer). Due to solubility NaI works much faster but each gets the job done just as well.

jon

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Re: finkelstein reactions NaI vs. KI in acetone
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2011, 06:09:57 AM »
i've never had a problem either running it with good stirring for around 30 minutes so it's safe to conclude to allow it to react at least 30 minutes prefferably longer with good stirring.