Author Topic: Help identifying mushrooms.  (Read 197 times)

Tsathoggua

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Re: Help identifying mushrooms.
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2011, 03:39:44 AM »
Galerinas never grow to the massive size attained by the Gymnopilus spp. do they?

Sadly the Meixner text crossreacts with both amatoxin and psilocin.
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Sedit

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Got some more mushrooms I would like yall to look at.
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2011, 08:23:37 PM »
I found these and I was feeding them to the fish when I looked down and noticed that they bruised a bright blue color. They are yellow stemmed, red top. They where growing along side of a small stream in patches of moss which was growing on a mostly gravel base.

Well without further adieu heres some photos.

What are these and are there non psychoactives that bruise blue like this?
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Sedit

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Re: Help identifying mushrooms.
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2011, 08:24:19 PM »
more....
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

The Lone Stranger

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Re: Help identifying mushrooms.
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2011, 09:07:40 PM »
Its definately not a Psilocybe , Gymnopilus or Panaeolus .......its got no gills  ....... i`ve got a load of books about psychoactive mushrooms and i`ve never seen anything like that in them .

The blueing reaction alone isnt a sign of Psilocybin ....... as far as i know that reaction hasnt been explained ....... i`ve had P.Semilanceata that didnt bruise no matter how i pressed and they were very strong .



Toad god ?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 09:23:45 PM by The Lone Stranger »

Sedit

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Re: Help identifying mushrooms.
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2011, 09:57:49 PM »
Yeh I never seen one look like this before either but the bluing is extremely strong in this one and I thought it should be investigated further so I figured I would bring it to the attention of the experts here.

Is there any test I could perform to prove/disprove the presence of psychoactive alkaloids?
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The Lone Stranger

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Re: Help identifying mushrooms.
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2011, 11:57:19 PM »
I`ve never heard of a DIY test for Psilocybin / Psilocin . The only way that i have heard of them being definately identifyed is useing gas chromatography / mass spectrometry .

Other than that a test for indoles might be worth doing if you can .......i f there aint non in there it aint Psilocybin / psilocin ?


Sedit

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Re: Help identifying mushrooms.
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2011, 12:03:58 AM »
I was thinking of trying a TLC using dragnodrofs reagent(sp?) to determine alkaloid content then compairing that to authetic samples.

Sorry so sloppy I gotta run but if yall can identify this shroom lemme know. Ill look more into it tommorow or later tonight.
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Help identifying mushrooms.
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2011, 11:09:23 PM »
Boletus species of some sort, not sure which, there are several that look like that, the red cracked boletus, Boletus chrysenteron (Xerocomus chrysenteron syn. Bulliard) is a lookalike to this, particularly when young and the cap has not yet become crazed with cracks, as do B.bicolor, and a couple of others.

If its B.chrysenteron, its edible, but I don't reccomend it...they turn slimy in the pot. Not particularly worth eating. Not psychoactive, so forget the Dragendorff's reagent. Most boletes are edible, for that matter, the ones that are not, generally have bright red pores and bruise intense blue, very quickly, in general, unless you can identify the species with a good degree of certainty, avoid boletes with red pores. Some, notably the devil's boletus, B.satanas, and the east asian B.venenatuscontain some rather potent cytotoxic glycoproteins, which I believe, are denatured by cooking, being proteins, also, muscarine is often present, although usually in relatively small quantities. The only Boletus species I know to have been implicated in a fatality is B.pulcherrimus, which contains some muscarine, albeit in relatively small quantities, and which usually causes severe G.I distress.  Killed the husband of a man and wife pair that ate this species, although cause of death was most atypical for muscarine intoxication, and would be more likely, in my opinion, if this species also contained cytotoxic lectins, in fact, its so atypical (infarct of the intestine) of muscarine toxicity that I believe it probably is cytotoxic, as B.satanas is. Supporting that, I would think, is the report by the mycologist Thiers, of somebody becoming quite ill aftere merely tasting (and I presume, spitting) the mushroom.

(the glycoprotein cytotoxins are inhibitors of protein synthesis, a similar end effect to abrin and ricin, although mediated through a quite different mode of action, still pretty damn potent however, bolesatine, from B.satanas is known to cause haemagglutination, I just can't see a cholinergic neurotoxin being responsible for that)

The species you have is VERY unlikely to be poisonous, but if its what I think it is, and it probably is, don't bother eating it, it will turn to mush while you cook it.  Certainly, don't bother wasting a TLC plate or reagents. Chances are it might turn positive under Dragendorff's, or van urk/erlich's reagent, I seem to recall reading of (non-psychoactive) indoles being present in Boletus spp.

There is, quite possibly, a psychotropic bolete, B.manicus. However, you aren't going to find that in the states, as its native to new guinea.

My guide to mushroom toxicology and safe picking is still a work in  progress, I haven't done any work on it in a while but I haven't forgotten...thanks..you reminded me to include those cytotoxins, of which I had forgotten, and to include a couple of other mycotoxins, thanks to my ADD-ish tendencies :P

For testing the presence of indoles there are a few reagent systems that can be used, dragendorff's reagent is one, Erlich's/van urk reagent is another, and a much simpler one is the Meixner test, which is used to determine the presence of a group of particularly hiedous macrofungal poisons, a group of cyclic polypeptides, the amatoxins, and their relatives the phallotoxins and virotoxins (which however, at least in the case of phallotoxins, do not appear to penetrate intact, living cells, and are found in certain edible species, which have never shown evidence of death cap type intoxication, and likewise, I do believe the virotoxins do not exert toxicity per os, and don't contribute to the poisoning caused by ingestion of the deadly Amanita virosa and A.verna)

All one needs for the Meixner test, which is extremely sensitive, with a cutoff detection threshold of about 2ug of total content in the sample of the various amatoxins, and which is crossreactive with psilocybin/psilocin and almost certainly other indoles, is conc. HCl.

Mash a sample up onto a bit of paper with a high ligin content, work the juice of the mushroom sample (or sample of a pure compound to be tested, I am fairly confident the Meixner test can be used, instead of for determination of amatoxin presence, or psilocin/psilocybin, as a general indicator for indolic compounds) into the paper. This MUST be a wood pulp based paper, with a high content of lignin, as the test depends upon a reaction between the indolic compound and lignin.

Draw a ring with pencil, not pen, to avoid bleeding of the ink coloring the sample and giving a false result, around the sample, and draw a ring round a blank area, with no sample present as a control, to help you remember where you left the sample. Remove the bulk of the solid mushroom tissue itself, then add two drops of the hydrochloric acid, one per sample, and one for the control spot. Leave it to develop for a minimum of 15 minutes, but 30 is preferable. A lilac greyblue will develop if the test is positive. The Meixner test should be done out of direct sunlight if possible, and certainly away from blacklights or any powerful UV sources. Heating gently will accelerate the reaction, although be careful not to burn it (although amatoxins are NOT thermolabile, and remain extremely toxic if a poisonous mushroom is cooked)

This will detect even a trace of amatoxins, or psilocybin in a fungal tissue sample, although, of note, some specimens of Galerina autumnalis and some of Amanita virosa have been known to show negative results for amatoxin, both are very deadly fungi indeed, causing fulminant hepatitis and hepatic necrosis leading to a hepatic encephalopathy, as well as frequently, damage to the kidneys and I believe, possibly, also to the myocardium, with a delayed onset of symptoms after eating the mushroom, leading to a symptomless period, during which time, the mushrooms are already laying waste to the liver on a massive scale.

Given the very low cutoff for a successful detection, 2ug/ml of sample mushroom juice, it leads me to believe that there may just be isolates of A.virosa that are perhaps non-toxic, or of minimal toxicity, although you couldn't pay me to eat any, even if a strain had been cultured, and subjected to an antisense knockdown of the genes synthesising amatoxins and analysed via LC/MS to prove it. Not a chance in hell.

The Meixner test will give you a yes or no answer, if you have, for instance, a Conocybe filaris, Psilocybe or Galerina spp. but it will not, however, tell you if what you have is full of tryptamines, or full of poison. Pretty confident it can be used with most indoles, although I have never heard of it being used other than by mycologists. Cheap and simple to perform though, and requiring no expensive, exotic, complex or potentially suspicious reagents (4-dimethylaminobenzaldehyde might just be viewed as suspicious, due to its simply being a benzaldehyde, by idiot drug pigs*, quite possibly not, but you know what they are like, there are fewer more glaring oxymorons in the english language than 'police intelligence')

*I mean drug squad filth, mind you, rather than greedy drug users :D

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I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

The Lone Stranger

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Re: Help identifying mushrooms.
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2011, 10:28:40 AM »
Nice one Toad God now i`ll be able to relax more . It had been buzzing round my head because the mushroom looks like a Boletus but i`d never seen one that was red or bruised blue . Do you know why it / some non Psilocybe mushrooms bruise blue ? Enzyme / s , oxidation of something ?

JustDreaming

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Re: Help identifying mushrooms.
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2011, 09:45:04 PM »
those look like some kind of coprinus artmesia sorry for the spelling. The ''ink cap''. Shroomery is an excellent forum for this information.

the second ones look like some kind of bolete.

I'm far from a pro mycologist though.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 09:46:54 PM by JustDreaming »
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Vesp

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Re: Help identifying mushrooms.
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2011, 10:00:03 PM »
It is the blue staining boletes

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Zir0

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Re: Help identifying mushrooms.
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2012, 08:10:57 PM »
Maybe Xerocomus rubellus. Or also X. chrysenteron, but the cap is too red for chrysenteron.