I am not sure if this is a new topic to the vespiary but I belive it to be one that needs to be discussed.

I have had a reasonable amount of experiance with these two compounds and think it important that
we at least look at and recognise the true dangers of these two compounds.

I would dearly love some help with my research into this moral issue as I am sure there are a lot of people
who have burnt them selves out been locked up over dosed or been so addicted that they have done
things that are not humanly sane over these compounds.

my first concern is probably already been stated if not here then on the collective by jon.

DOSAGE:

these compounds have a very small dosage and the difference between pleasureable dosage and overdose
are very very close.

it is not hard for some one to overdose on these compounds.

ADDICTION:

I would put these compounds above most opiods in addictive qualities.
having seen many an ice fiend stab a friend of theres to get there last pipe.

LASTING MENTAL EFFECTS:

A lot of ice users that I have met seem to loose a lot of there cognitive ability over the length of there
addiction.  They are also prone to outbursts of psycosiss and depression.

when we look at Methamphetamine which is usualy not discussed here in great length due to its "tweeker nature"
we find that it is illegal to posses and use with out script.  Script being the key here as the drug still
is used for medicine.

if we look at aminorex it was withdrawn and never put back onto the RX listings in 1968 due to its adverse
and dangerous side effects.

"During its use, an unacceptably high incidence of pulmonary hypertension was reported, which led to the deaths of several individuals" which means of course that it does indeed lead to heart problems 
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/aminorex.html#refs

please remeber that these deaths were not street related but rather from the prescribed use of aminorex.

DURATION:
aminorex and its sister methyl aminorex have durations of over 30 hours.
this if in the wrong hands can cause extream problems for the users life.
it will stop a person from sleeping and effect there thought process for a lot longer than they expect.

please remeber that a lot of people read and try what we discuss on these sites.

it is quite easyt to get a 15 or 16 year old kid to try half of what we discuss and with out any kind of
responsibility for our actions and teachings I feel that we could be held responsible for that kids
possible death or permanent impairment.

with some responsibility and the help of some of chemical sector making new compounds like
JWH there is a possibility that we are starting to move into what most of us have dreamed of.

A new age were drugs are not so frowned on.

I find that teaching and making compounds that are a serious health issue is not only as bad as making
nerve agents but also counter productive of all of the work that this group and the groups that were before
that sired this group.

ill add more as I get time.

If anyone can add to this with personal or referenced material I would be very happy.



thankyou

shroom.

it almost killed me.
i did'nt know how strong it was.
i think i did maybe 150 milligrams.
it has a beautiful high then it gets very ugly very fast at hour 20 i turn pale eyes roll back in head and go into seizures.
very dangerous drug.
i also remember feeling a pressure in my head like it was going to explode.
the cardiovascular was fine, no palpitations nothing so i thought it was safe to use.
and the euphoria and color enhancement was a lot like ecstasy only it lasted 20 hours.
after i threw it away i had an urge to redose but it is nothing like speed or coke as far as the urge to do more and more, it just feels so good it lends itself to repeat dosing to get higher.

i think the safer stimulants are like preludin having lessened cardiotoxicity and good euphoria.
they don't make that anymore though.

it's got a real steep dose/response run-up after 40 milligrams it's too much.
thing is you don't know it because of the sneak factor.

Here's the relevant text of my first Pubmed reference, which I think is most damning to the aminorex series:

Patient 1 is a 39-year-old man who owns a farm in rural
Pennsylvania. He presented in February 1993 with an 8-month
history of exertional dyspnea and syncope, and he was found to
have a pulmonary artery pressure of 56/20 mm Hg (mean, 34 mm
Hg) at cardiac catheterization. The pulmonary capillary wedge
pressure was normal, but left ventricular ejection fraction was
reduced to 40%. Patient 2, the 32-year-old wife of patient 1,
developed exertional dyspnea and syncope in November 1993.
Cardiac catheterization in August 1994 disclosed a pulmonary
artery pressure of 60/38 mm Hg (mean, 48 mm Hg).

Patient 3,
the nephew of patient 1, age 28 years, presented in January 1993
with dyspnea and light-headedness; at cardiac catheterization in
July 1993, he had a pulmonary artery pressure of 75/30 mm Hg
(mean, 50 mm Hg). No underlying cause for pulmonary hyper-
tension was found in any case, and all patients initially denied
ingestion of potentially toxic substances. Left ventricular function
was mildly and globally depressed in patients 1 and 2, although
left-heart filling pressures were normal. Pulmonary hypertension
has been persistent in all three patients, although echocardiog-
raphy in patient 1 suggested that pressures may have improved.
An investigation by federal Drug Enforcement Administration
agents resulted in indictment of patient 1 following the discovery
of a chemistry laboratory and > 20 lb of 4-methyl-aminorex, an
amphetamine analog, in a barn that was sublet on the farm.
Patient 3, who was not indicted, subsequently confirmed prior
4-methyl-aminorex ingestion.

Note that this group included a husband and wife, who shouldn't share close genetic resemblance. Yet all 3 developed pulmonary hypertension. I can see a few possible interpretations:

• The pulmonary hypertension effect is genetically linked but rare, and these 3 just got unlucky.
• The pulmonary hypertension effect is genetically linked but common, so it is unsurprising that all 3 suffered.
• The pulmonary hypertension effect manifests regardless of genotype when someone has effectively unlimited (more than 20 pounds of 4-MAR!) ability to use aminorex compounds at recreational dose levels.

It is impossible to tell without further research which hypothesis is correct, but if the second or third is correct than these drugs are quite hazardous recreationally, even more so than the European medical aminorex experience of the late 1960s would suggest. Recreational users are going to use more of the drug, and more frequently, than someone who's just trying to lose weight.

The thing is on the street 4MAR is being confussed with crystal meth, resulting in people taking 80/200mg of 4mar thinking its meth resulting in psychosis overdose. And some really crazy behaviour.

Ive found out it is indeed here around, but not as meth, it is sold as mdma instead. People overdose on it and complain they took the worst mdma ever the next day?
Logical decision, as it wont works the way meth does, its best described with "feels like being 24/7 on mdma" i think it was jon (who else ) who said that.