Author Topic: Re; Hydroxylamine  (Read 757 times)

hypnos

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Re; Hydroxylamine
« on: August 08, 2011, 03:26:39 AM »
 
   There have been some ideas, for a Rxn being developed for 6MAM-( 6 Monoacetyl morphine,) in which, there is

  much thought about using Hydroxylamine as a catalyst,
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The yields are 100% so you wont lose anything, say for example you had a gram of that smak you would dissolve it in minimum ethanol (methylated spirits) then you want nearly 0.4grams of hydroxylamine HCl dissolved in minimum water and add together. That is stirred for 15 minutes, the hydrochloride salt of 6-MAM will crystallize out while stirring. The solution is left to evaporate and the residue thats left over (6MAM) washed with water to remove any excess hydroxylamine, it is then made basic and extracted with non-polar solvent (optional), that is then evaporated, and recrytsallized. After washing with water the material would be good to go! I could add a gram or two (or 5) of hydroxylamine HCl to your package if you want? I have a some spare laboratory grade stuff here so you are welcome if you want to run that and see what REAL 6MAM is like!

 BUT........
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Safety

Hydroxylamine may explode on heating. The nature of the explosive hazard is not well understood. At least two factories dealing in hydroxylamine have been destroyed since 1999 with loss of life.

  As mentioned " the nature of the Explosive hazard is Not Well Known..." :o
 Can anyone elaborate- or has anyone experienced these "explosive properties of Hydroxylamine?

  Cheers Hyppy
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RoidRage

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2011, 04:07:36 AM »
It's unstable when dry in freebase form. Hence it's sold as aqueous solutions  8). Hydroxylamine salts are stable as far as I know.

NeilPatrickHarris

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2011, 06:06:05 PM »
It's unstable when dry in freebase form. Hence it's sold as aqueous solutions  8). Hydroxylamine salts are stable as far as I know.

yep.  the salts are the safe form to handle them in.  it's the freebase hydroxylamine that is explosive, as RR said when it's dry it's unstable

Tsathoggua

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2011, 03:36:34 AM »
If hydroxylamine base is present in a solution also containing a strong base (unsure about weaker bases such as carbonate, bicarbonate, etc.) and particularly with group I metal hydroxides, then it is to the best of my knowledge, particularly dangerous. Apparently many of the factories that have been blown to smithereens, were plants that in some process or other, distilled large quantities of freebase hydroxylamine in the presence of base.
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reDEEMed

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2011, 03:44:20 AM »
Doing some research last night I stumbled across this tidbit

Quote
A drop of anhydrous hydroxylamine on powdered potassium dichromate produces a violent explosion [Mellor 8:293. 1946-47]
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reDEEMed

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2011, 12:33:19 PM »
I had to recover some last night because I fucked up and didn't divide my molar ratio by two. Good thing the shit freezes super easy, way before water. Makes recovering it from solution easy as pie.
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hypnos

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2011, 01:55:26 AM »
 Thanx all for the input-  I was inclined to think this,--Very nice photos, man of steel! ;)  May I ask what method you were using to create the Hydroxlamine, you were recovering?
  Fuck I Hate "recovering" product,,often a pain in the arse, however, reDEEMed, what solvent were you using? to freeze out the hydroxylamine?  Nice result! 8)

 Cheers Hyppy
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reDEEMed

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2011, 02:10:54 PM »
I buy the sulfate or HCl salt, whatever is available when I need it. I don't make my own, although I will be ordering nitromethane today and giving that a go when I get it. My personal involvement with hydroxylamine is about to be over. I have found a way to get by without it, which is good because I'm sick of scrounging the shit up here and there. Those crystals in the pics are the biggest ones I've ever had. Usually they are small needles. What you see in the pics is what happens you put a solution of any kind containing N2OH in the fridge. It only takes about 30 minutes and your flask is full of those, usually not that big, but there nonetheless.
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2011, 03:28:48 PM »
Tsathoggua favours dealing with the hydrochloride salt. Not highly experienced with either its handling or use, having only done so relatively recently, within a timescale of less than two years, greater than a good few months.

The reason for this, is of course, the danger of hydroxylamine in its freebase form. And compared to the sulfate, which mind you, has never been used by the great ancient amphibian one, if one has to form a freebase for a reaction, such as forming an oxime in the presence of a functional group which one does not want protonated by escaping HCl if based in situ either specifically or via reaction conditions already being sufficiently basic, capturing the escaping HCl, if one were theoretically to use a proton donor which does not depend on amine groups for its basicity, may be too slow, and lower reaction yields.

Seems 'cleaner' than sulfate also, as HCl is gaseous in nature and can, as said, if required in a specific reaction of some sort, be pursuaded, logically speaking, to bugger off elsewhere by driving it off, as long as it isn't highly soluable, with a good affinity for the solvent. Similar to how NH3(g) can be driven off from NH3(aq) leaving water, by heating. The ammonia having a good solubility in water, but not being 'captured' and having a certain quantity, small, compared to however much was originally in the rxn solvent, but nevertheless existant. This is conjectural theory, the latter paragraph, or parts of it from applied logical deduction, not gospel truth obtained by viewing through practical experience, so do not take it as holy writ. Results may differ. Of course, sulfates are not volatile, HCl is...go figure. (aside from certain sulfates, such as esters, Me2SO4, etc. of course, and if THATs being driven off from your reaction, one should be several miles in the opposite fucking direction:D)

From what Tsathoggua has read, the freebase of NHOH is dangerous primarily, when heated. In the cold, and absence of base (again, as stated, seemingly particularly the group I, and he would surmise, group II metal hydroxide bases) the impression Toady gets, is that it is likely to simply sit there and react. However if refluxed (presumably past a certain temperature, or possibly under the influence of vacuum), there may well be a tendency towards explosion if one is unlucky. Most unpleasant if it were to happen in a glass flask with a clandestine chemist standing next to it observing the progress of their currently pursued reaction, whatever it might be. The toad deity HAS read of explosions, while looking up hydroxylamine base, knowing the propensity towards energetic decomposition if it gets pissy, prior to first using the chemical, which occured in plants, after vacuum distillation of large quantities using alkali metal hydroxides to base the stuff prior to industrial scale vac distillation for purification/synthesis purposes (one if he recalls, was an industrial hydroxylamine production/purification factory actually, that did so, and met a rather ugly fate involving a bloody loud noise and a very large, and almost certainly very untidy and messy hole in the ground)

He is pretty glad he was not walking down the road past that one when it went off like a firecracker :o

Toady wonders....if certain metal salts, transition metal compounds, salts, oxides, ions, he isn't sure, but he recalls, very distantly in the back of his mind, reading something to this effect somewhere online...he may be getting it mixed up with something else, but he may not. He is just throwing it out there for safetys sake, it would be prudent to look it up first to ascertain the accuracy of this prior to using or permitting to exist in a reaction, hydroxylamine base.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 03:41:01 PM by Tsathoggua »
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I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

dingbow

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2011, 12:38:10 AM »
I have found a way to get by without it, which is good because I'm sick of scrounging the shit up here and there.
Found this curious, can you expand on this? Sorry to go a little off topic.

edit: whilst the salt form is more stable, it will also decompose energetically at elevated temperatures. Place a SMALL amount on a spoon and heat to see the decomposition. Ensure all the usual safety gear is worn etc.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 12:42:15 AM by dingbow »

reDEEMed

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2011, 01:12:48 AM »
I will be trying my idea tonight, finally. After a month (at least) of reading I'm ready to get some glass wet. I'll let you know how it goes. I'm not sure how I feel about sharing, though. I'm like the greenest greenhorn on the planet, yet I figured out a way to the amide without the oximation step. I find it very very hard to believe that I'm the only one to think of it. I actually stumbled upon it reading up on the condensation of oximes lol.
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java

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2011, 02:52:08 AM »
. I find it very very hard to believe that I'm the only one to think of it. I actually stumbled upon it reading up on the condensation of oximes lol.

.....don't be so sure....nothing is new, old news, it just takes research and reading.....java
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 02:53:40 AM by java »
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overunity33

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2011, 05:21:51 AM »
I will be trying my idea tonight, finally. After a month (at least) of reading I'm ready to get some glass wet. I'll let you know how it goes. I'm not sure how I feel about sharing, though. I'm like the greenest greenhorn on the planet, yet I figured out a way to the amide without the oximation step. I find it very very hard to believe that I'm the only one to think of it. I actually stumbled upon it reading up on the condensation of oximes lol.

I hope it goes well for you but honestly do you have any idea how much money is involved in this scenario?  A lot of smart people stand to never have to work again if they can do what you are talking about, if it actually works better then other processes both public and private.  You should consult with java or some other smart bees.  just because a paper says it will work on one substrate does not mean it will work on the one we are interested in, or even work at all.

Just dont count your chickens before they hatch in this hobby, thats all im saying.

lugh

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2011, 09:22:14 AM »
Quote
  As mentioned " the nature of the Explosive hazard is Not Well Known..." :o
 Can anyone elaborate- or has anyone experienced these "explosive properties of Hydroxylamine?

That's not exactly true, what causes hydroxylamine to detonate and why it happens are described in this very thread  ;)  Preventing such an event has been published for over a century, but finding and retrieving such information is no easy task  :P The procedure:

To isolate free hydroxylamine, the hydrochloride is dissolved in methanol. Sodium methoxide/methanol is added. The sodium chloride is filtered, and the methanol is removed by distillation under reduced pressure. Hydroxylamine distils at about 70°/60 mm and about 58°/32 mm. Vaseline may be added to prevent frothing during distillation and care must be taken to exclude air since at 60-70°  explosive mixtures may be formed.

The attached articles go into greater detail about this matter. The citations for these extremely obscure and hard to find articles are Rec Trav Chim 10 100 (1891) & 11 18 (1892); Ber 27 1347 (1894)  :-X  The end results from the effort applied  8)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 12:24:51 PM by lugh »
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RoidRage

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2011, 04:48:47 PM »
If anybody need help with the papers Lugh kindly posted (considering they're in french ;D), let me know!

reDEEMed

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2011, 05:07:52 PM »
I fell asleep last night at 11:00pm and JUST NOW got up. I haven't slept that long since well before my accident. So, I didn't do anything last night.

Regarding my idea that I have yet to try. I can't remember what I paid for the reagents as I bought them way back when I first thought of this, but they weren't cheap. I'm not saying this way will be cheaper, I just think it will be easier and the yield from beginning oil to amide will be much more predictable without the oximation and beckmann to fuck with, though I have good luck with the beckmann, it really loves me for some reason. The amide I get sparkles like a pond on day with no wind and the sun over head and brilliantly white.

No, I wouldn't worry about anyone being put out of work lol. If it does work I will definitely be telling a few of these people around here who I have lots of respect for, but I just don't know about posting it in a thread. I haven't been around for long but something tells me that would be frowned upon.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 05:29:36 PM by reDEEMed »
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akcom

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2011, 05:32:31 PM »
H2O2 and DMSO?

reDEEMed

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2011, 05:35:51 PM »
Potassium dichromate and ammonium chlorate 8)

Edit: I mean carbonate, doh!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 05:38:24 PM by reDEEMed »
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
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reDEEMed

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2011, 05:42:35 PM »
Can I stop a minute and take issue with overunity and his statement that some very smart people will not have to work again?

Dude, I know you aint sittin' there telling me that making compounds of interest is not work. Sure, it's the funnest fucking thing on the planet that I can ever think of doing for money, but I 'work' around the clock, 20 hours a day usually. Anybody who thinks that clandestine chemistry is not work watches too much tv. I read 10 hours and do reactions for 30 minutes, I don't ever see that changing either. Come one, man! Surely that's not what you meant to say :P
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

overunity33

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Re: Re; Hydroxylamine
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2011, 06:09:16 PM »
-
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 01:03:00 AM by overunity33 »