Author Topic: C10H15N via BzMgCl + ( Acetaldehyde & Methylamine )  (Read 239 times)

bee_mo

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C10H15N via BzMgCl + ( Acetaldehyde & Methylamine )
« on: June 21, 2009, 02:12:19 PM »

SWIM is looking for anyone with experience in the following procedure/s. SWIM is not your average bear. He is keen, cautious, proven intellectual fortitude, and revels in his continuous state of learning. SWIM has been doing his homework on this particular scheme for a period of six months, all the while collecting the necessary items.

Now that SWIM is ready to undertake the system of reactions, SWIM would like input from those with intimate knowledge of the following:


1)  Acetaldehyde(l) + Methylamine(g)  -->  'Imine + H20

-- As the Imine will be used in a Grignard reaction, the water must be removed. My current understanding is that it would be best removed as it is produced.  ie. Perform the reaction in the presence of a drying agent.  Are there any objections to this?


2)  Benzyl Magnesium Chloride + 'Imine --> intermediate  ... ---Hydrolysis--> Methamphetamine

--- Lots of literature on grignards, so I feel comfortable with my current understandings of the reaction process. Just looking for any bits of advice.


I will be providing a thorough follow up to this reaction of course.

Douchermann

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Re: C10H15N via BzMgCl + ( Acetaldehyde & Methylamine )
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2009, 04:27:35 PM »
This always failed on me because I couldn't adequately dry the ether used in the grignard.  Use molecular sieves or sodium to dry the ether.  Magnesium sulfate should be fine to dry the imine.  Calcium chloride might even work.

Sedit

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Re: C10H15N via BzMgCl + ( Acetaldehyde & Methylamine )
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2009, 06:36:05 PM »
Distilling over Sodium or even Lithium should suffice to dry the ether here I would think. If a mol sieve proves to be effective that would be much more ideal the using Na to dry it though.

There are papers over a Rhodiums site that dictate the use of the Grignard under less then idea conditions using a sonication bath. These can be purchased for the cleaning of jewlery or possibly made from UStransducers. Under these conditions the grignard has been shown to perform even in a 'wet' enviroment and to me that would be ideal here sence one of the reactions products of the first step is water. I have no idea how H2O tolerant this makes it or personal experiance but it seems worth looking into.


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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: C10H15N via BzMgCl + ( Acetaldehyde & Methylamine )
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 03:54:32 PM »
bee_mo: if you are having any literature on synthesis , isolation and drying this imine, please provide.. it must be a very interesting route
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bee_mo

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Re: C10H15N via BzMgCl + ( Acetaldehyde & Methylamine )
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2009, 05:49:46 AM »
Doucherman:
If you have the time, SWIM would like to hear a bit more on your experiences. It is no surprise that the sheer nature of this topic makes it impossible to discuss this with anyone in person. That being said, SWIM must take what he can from forums like this. Any knowledge, be it of failure or success, can help SWIM create strong conclusion in how to proceed.


Sedit:

SWIM is aware of the literature you are referring to and agrees it may be of value should a 'no go' condition arise.


zhuchila:

So far, SWIM hasn't been able to locate any reputable literature in regards to practical laboratory Imine formation from Acetaldehyde and Methylamine.

Off the top of SWIMs head, the best piece he can think of is 'Organic Chemistry' by Graham L. Patrick,  section J6. Theory only. No tangible data.




POSEIDON

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Re: C10H15N via BzMgCl + ( Acetaldehyde & Methylamine )
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 06:49:50 AM »
Hey swib look for this book: Experimental Organic Chemistry  by  H. Dupont Durst, George W. Gokel.
in there swib gonna find some nice examples about grignard
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Enkidu

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Re: C10H15N via BzMgCl + ( Acetaldehyde & Methylamine )
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 08:11:44 AM »
What is the product of the grignard + imine?

Vesp

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Re: C10H15N via BzMgCl + ( Acetaldehyde & Methylamine )
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2009, 04:56:19 AM »
I think this will answer your question Enkidu...
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/grignardimine.html
hmm and also this slightly related grignard reaction forming the product might be of interest, I don't know.
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/meth.phenylacetaldehyde.html


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Goldmember

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Re: C10H15N via BzMgCl + ( Acetaldehyde & Methylamine )
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2009, 07:56:39 AM »
To me this looks better than Lenos work.

Improvements in the manufacture of organic compounds containing nitrogen, arsenic, sulphur or selenium

EXAMPLE 1 44 gms. of acetaldehyde are dropped slowly, with constant stirring, into 100 gms of benzyl-magnesium chloride dissolved in 150 ccs. of absolute ether. The temperature rises slowly to 50 C. which is kept constant for two hours. The magnesium alkoxide obtained, having the formula C6H3.CH2.CH(OMgCl)CH3, is treated for three hours with gaseous methyl-amine. The reaction product, which becomes heated during the reaction, is allowed to cool slowly and is then extracted with ether and the ethereal solution is dried over magnesium sulphate. The ether is then carefully removed, pervitin, corresponding to the formula EMI3.1 being obtained as residue.



http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=GB&NR=782887A&KC=A&FT=D&date=19570911&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_GB



Experimental:

Preparation of benzylmagnesium chloride:

In a flask equipped with an addition funnel and a cooling bath, benzylmagnesium chloride was prepared by dripping 24.4g (0.2 mol) of freshly distilled benzyl chloride (bp 179°C) dissolved in ether in small portions onto 4.8 gram (0.2 mol) of cleaned magnesium turnings covered with ether. The initiation of the reaction can be facilitated by heating the magnesium turnings in a test-tube with an iodine crystal before use. After the addition of all the reagent, the solution was boiled until all the magnesium was dissolved.

Preparation of etheral methylamine:

In a fractional distilling apparatus there was introduced 15g of methylamine hydrochloride, and from an addition funnel, there was slowly added 30ml of a 40% sodium hydroxide solution. The evolved methylamine gas was lead into an ice-cooled flask filled with anhydrous ether and some anhydrous sodium sulfate. To prevent the escape of gas and enrance of moisture, the recieving flask was connected to a U-tube filled with mercury. A 5ml portion of the etheral solution of methylamine was poured into a little water and quickly titrated in the presence of methyl orange with a standardized acid solution to determine the concentration of methylamine.

Preparation of acetaldehyde:

The acetaldehyde was prepared immediately before use by the depolymerization of paraldehyde. In an apparatus similar to that for the production of methylamine, concentrated sulfuric acid was added to paraldehyde, which distilled at a temperature of 21°C into a reciever cooled in ice.

Preparation of the imine and reaction with the grignard reagent:

A cold solution of etheral methylamine, containing 3.1g of the free base (0.1 mol) was mixed with a cooled etheral solution of 4.4g of acetaldehyde, whereupon the solution became turbid. Anhydrous sodium sulfate was added with swirling of the mixture to absorb the formed water, and the solution was decanted into the addition funnel of the flask containing the pre-made benzylmagnesium chloride, which in the meantime had been cooled in an ice-bath, and was added dropwise to the solution.

After it had all reacted the solution was acidified and washed with ether to remove by-products, basified with a sodium hydroxide solution and extracted repratedly with ether, the ether extracts dried over anhydrous sodium sulfate, filtered and concentrated to give an oil, which was neutralized by the addition of concentrated hydrochloric acid giving a wet, crystalline mass that was dried for several days in a desiccator containing both concentrated sulfuric acid and solid sodium hydroxide. The obtained crystals was recrystallized repeatedly from acetone to give colorless crystals of methamphetamine hydrochloride with a melting point of ca 140°C, in ca 40% yield.


Sorry for cut/paste. Couldnt post the original link as it seems to be broke.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 08:03:42 AM by Goldmember »

bee_mo

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Re: C10H15N via BzMgCl + ( Acetaldehyde & Methylamine )
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2009, 01:06:27 AM »
SWIM sends out a great Thank You! to Goldmember, as the article you have 'cut and paste' is almost an exact replica of SWIMs anticipated proceedings. Wonderful to hear such success.

SWIM is happy for all the input from the Vespiary's members, and promises a report soon!